US-05, pale ale and diacetyl. Ring a bell?

[Indyking]

could always pitch some brett and lit it scarf all of that tasty diacetyl.

Yes, but adding fermentables to reactivate the yeast after fermentation is complete not always eliminate yeast by products, depending of the cause it may make it worse or create other off flavors. I did not want to waste more time with it.

 

[Indyking]

Yes but lots of cleaning up happens after fermentation is over. 2 weeks clearly hasn't worked for you in this case. This is my point, take it or leave it.

Steve da sleeve

We don't know that. How can I blame in the 2 weeks for one batch with diacetyl while I have 37 others on file that I fermented for 2 weeks and had no problems with diacetyl?

 

[Indyking]

If you're done with this yeast I'll take any extras off your hands. It would save me the $3.99 each. I doubt the diacetyl is going anywhere now if the beer is off the yeast cake, but we can hope age will help.
Cheers.

Fortunately I don't have any left in stock! I have been told diacetyl does not go away with aging. Not really willing to waste a full keg for months to find out.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Look up diacetyl rest.

 

[Indyking]

I should add that I'm not a strong advocate of long fermentation, I know it works for a lot of people here. In have tested same recipes with different fermentation times and noticed no improvement beyond 2 weeks for ales. In fact I find strong Belgian ales to taste more characteristic of the style with even shorter time, typically 10-12 days of fermentation.

 

[Indyking]

Look up diacetyl rest.

Dark IPA is an ale. Yes, I do d-rest for lagers obviously.

 

[MrOH]

I've got an APA that is exhibiting some buttery notes now, as well. OG 1.054, FG 1.012, three weeks from brew day to bottling, three weeks since bottling, temp on fermometer never got above 72. So it might just be a batch of yeast.

 

[Indyking]

I've got an APA that is exhibiting some buttery notes now, as well. OG 1.054, FG 1.012, three weeks from brew day to bottling, three weeks since bottling, temp on fermometer never got above 72. So it might just be a batch of yeast.

I know it's easy to blame in the yeast, but based on what I have seen with this yeast and all the information I got, I'm inclined to think some lots of this yeast have a diacetyl liability.

 

[LoloMT7]

The first few times I used US-05 I was fine but then I had a few with diacetyl I tried to warm up and do a diacetyl rest @ 68-70 for a few days. But it didn't help.
I even went as far as to split a batch up and pitched Nottingham ale yeast on 2.5 gallons and US-05 on the other half. I will be using Nottingham or S-04 from now on when I buy dry yeast. Some will swear up and down that the yeast isn't the problem but for me it made all the difference when I tried another yeast. To each his own but for now I'm not going to be putting US-05 in my wort.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

It seems like you made up your mind the problem was the yeast well before you first posted this thread.

While it's possible that the yeast is the culprit, it's far more likely a process issue. Diacetyl is often caused by yeast stress. If you are underpitching, which it sounds like you might be, and under-aerating, that's a stressful environment likely to cause diacetyl and other off flavors.

 

[Croat]

I,ve never tasted any diacetyl using US-05 . Underpitching, under-aerating and even high water PH can stress the yeast . Not to mention plastic buckets which ,IMPO, can't be used for fermentation more than a few times.

 

[Indyking]

The first few times I used US-05 I was fine but then I had a few with diacetyl I tried to warm up and do a diacetyl rest @ 68-70 for a few days. But it didn't help.
I even went as far as to split a batch up and pitched Nottingham ale yeast on 2.5 gallons and US-05 on the other half. I will be using Nottingham or S-04 from now on when I buy dry yeast. Some will swear up and down that the yeast isn't the problem but for me it made all the difference when I tried another yeast. To each his own but for now I'm not going to be putting US-05 in my wort.

Your post make me thank I did not try to put more sugar or more yeast to fix it. Somehow I did not think it was worth the extra effort and resources.

 

[two_hearted]

Ok, FWIW I am having similar issues, all with WL001. my last 5 batches have all had significant diacetly and muted hop flavors/aroma. (see thread here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/recurring-diacetlyesque-off-flavor-woes-353796/)

I am pretty sure I have a bacterial infection somewhere. I have replaced tubing and siphon, but still present. I ferment in the low 60s, do a diacetly rest, healthy pitching rates, nothing helps. I am about to start fermenting in SS sanke kegs and replacing all my plastic again. Huge pain... But, I'll let you know if it helps.

 

[Indyking]

It seems like you made up your mind the problem was the yeast well before you first posted this thread.

While it's possible that the yeast is the culprit, it's far more likely a process issue. Diacetyl is often caused by yeast stress. If you are underpitching, which it sounds like you might be, and under-aerating, that's a stressful environment likely to cause diacetyl and other off flavors.

If you go back to the op, I believe it was clear that my intention was to see if other people were having similar problems with US-05, with much less focus on the troubleshooting portion. I know the basics for adequate yeast pitching/fermentation and I have a pretty consistent technique that never gave me any problems with diacetyl except in those 2 batches fermented with US-05. Besides, I have used US-05 in 3 other batches with no problem whatsoever. If it was just me, then I give you that my technique as strict as I claim it to be, went bad. But, there are quite few reports of diacetyl problems with US-05 in the net and when I talked to people working at LHBS.

 

[Indyking]

Ok, FWIW I am having similar issues, all with WL001. my last 5 batches have all had significant diacetly and muted hop flavors/aroma. (see thread here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/recurring-diacetlyesque-off-flavor-woes-353796/)

I am pretty sure I have a bacterial infection somewhere. I have replaced tubing and siphon, but still present. I ferment in the low 60s, do a diacetly rest, healthy pitching rates, nothing helps. I am about to start fermenting in SS sanke kegs and replacing all my plastic again. Huge pain... But, I'll let you know if it helps.

Ok, I believe wl001 is the same strain.

 

[Indyking]

I,ve never tasted any diacetyl using US-05 . Underpitching, under-aerating and even high water PH can stress the yeast . Not to mention plastic buckets which ,IMPO, can't be used for fermentation more than a few times.

In 3 years and over 40 batches using plastic buckets, I never got an infection, but my buckets have indeed gone old and I'm working on replacing with glass for now until I can afford and convince myself to buy a conical.

 

[two_hearted]

In 3 years and over 40 batches using plastic buckets, I never got an infection, but my buckets have indeed gone old and I'm working on replacing with glass for now.

In 7 years, I have never gotten an infection either. Even pro brewers have issues sometimes. I think my problem is something somewhere deep within my kegging system.

 

[peterj]

I've read that if your fermentation gets above ~70F with US-05, you are running the risk of getting off flavors. I would say the diacetyl is a combonation of low pitching rate and fermentation temp being too high. Also, I think you said the other beers you did with US-05 were darker beers? If that is the case, you may still have had diacetyl in those but the flavor malts are raising the flavor threshold so you might not be able to detect it. The flavor threshold in a pale ale (and probably even a black IPA) would be much lower than a stout or something similar.

Dark IPA is an ale. Yes, I do d-rest for lagers obviously.

Diacetyl rests aren't forbidden for ales. I heard Mike McDole on the Jamil show talking about doing one for his IPA. And if you are having trouble with diacetyl, then why wouldn't you try something that has the sole purpose of reducing diacetyl? I would suggest fermenting in a swamp cooler in the mid to low 60sF then raising the temp to your ambient (68F) for a diacetyl rest.

 

[Indyking]

I've read that if your fermentation gets above ~70F with US-05, you are running the risk of getting off flavors. I would say the diacetyl is a combonation of low pitching rate and fermentation temp being too high. Also, I think you said the other beers you did with US-05 were darker beers? If that is the case, you may still have had diacetyl in those but the flavor malts are raising the flavor threshold so you might not be able to detect it. The flavor threshold in a pale ale (and probably even a black IPA) would be much lower than a stout or something similar.

Diacetyl rests aren't forbidden for ales. I heard Mike McDole on the Jamil show talking about doing one for his IPA. And if you are having trouble with diacetyl, then why wouldn't you try something that has the sole purpose of reducing diacetyl? I would suggest fermenting in a swamp cooler in the mid to low 60sF then raising the temp to your ambient (68F) for a diacetyl rest.

One of my best brews so far is a pretty clean brown ale that resembles a lot fat squirrel by New Glaurus, although it was not interned to clone it, and it was fermented with US-05 at around 72F for 2 weeks according to my records.

I also had a Delicious porter also fermented with US-05, a little cooler, around 69F but it was a 1.058 OG and again, clean. Yes, a porter has enough complexity to somewhat mask diacetyl but honestly if it was very evident I'm sure I would pick up, I've grown very sensitive to it.

 

[ayoungrad]

Given how ubiquitous US-05 has become, if diacetyl were truly an issue, you would think that it would be reported much, much more frequently. I suppose diacetyl could be an issue only with certain batches but I still think you would see it reported more extensively online. I use US-05 very frequently and have not had diacetyl issues. But, of course, that is just stating my personal experience.

 

[bovineblitz]

I am extremely sensitive to diacetyl. I've started raising the temperature of ALL beers to about room temp a day or two before bottling. That solved the slight issue I was having with S04.

I've never had a problem with S05 but I still raise the temp at the end.

I had a real issue with diacetyl once and it turned out to be an infection of sorts... nuked everything and it went away.

 

[moti_mo]

No problems here at all. Why not let the beer ferment longer? 2 weeks, in my experience, is a little short. Another week might clear it up. I do 3 weeks or longer myself. I do control the temperature - 62-66 for 3 weeks then a couple of days at 68+, the I cool it to 35-40 before kegging.

FWIW and YMMV and WTF etc.

Steve da sleeve

I agree with this suggestion. I never keg any beers before the 3 week mark, and usually leave in primary for 4 - 6 weeks, and I've never had diacetyl problems. Of course, I've never used S-05, but I've used PLENTY of strains notorious for diacetyl if not treated properly.

You say 2 weeks has always worked for you, but this is a curious viewpoint given your stories of multiple beers with diacetyl problems. Two weeks is great if everything else fell into place and the yeast produce very little diacetyl to begin with, but if this isn't the case, then usually just another week or two in primary will allow the yeast to clean up diacetyl very efficiently, even at 68 degrees.

 

[Indyking]

I agree with this suggestion. I never keg any beers before the 3 week mark, and usually leave in primary for 4 - 6 weeks, and I've never had diacetyl problems. Of course, I've never used S-05, but I've used PLENTY of strains notorious for diacetyl if not treated properly.

You say 2 weeks has always worked for you, but this is a curious viewpoint given your stories of multiple beers with diacetyl problems. Two weeks is great if everything else fell into place and the yeast produce very little diacetyl to begin with, but if this isn't the case, then usually just another week or two in primary will allow the yeast to clean up diacetyl very efficiently, even at 68 degrees.

I said I had only 2 batches out of >40 with diacetyl, both fermented with US-05, hence my hesitation to use this yeast again.

I do agree because homebrewers don't have a fine control of their brewing technique compared to commercial giants, prolonged fermentation time is important but I aways thought 2 weeks for ales were plenty and it has been working for me. If you pitch rate is right, most of the attenuation takes place really within 4-7 days, so you have at least one more week left for yeast cleaning up.

Having said that, If I ever get diacetyl with another yeast with my technique I will definitively try what was suggested here, which is either prolonging fermentation to a minimum of 3 weeks or try to raise the fermenter temp in the end.

So, you may wonder, why not do 3-4 weeks as a standard? Well, I use to do that when I started but my beers did improve considerably when I changed to 2 weeks. That also coincided with me changing to kegs and using the cornies to condition, so I never find out if they improved because of shorter fermentation, keg conditioning or both.

 

[Brulosopher]

Not to mention plastic buckets which ,IMPO, can't be used for fermentation more than a few times.

Huh? How was this personal opinion formed? Evidence? I've used carboys and buckets, and after 10 years still much prefer the latter. I've been using the same plastic buckets for almost 2 years without any off flavors. I'm happy to have you over to share a couple pints

 

[edmanster]

Huh? How was this personal opinion formed? Evidence? I've used carboys and buckets, and after 10 years still much prefer the latter. I've been using the same plastic buckets for almost 2 years without any off flavors. I'm happy to have you over to share a couple pints

+1.. I have 4 buckets that have been used over 5 years with more then 20 batches in each one including cider and wine primaries.. even the ones that stink of hops don't transfer the smell into my cream ales.. I won't discard until I get an infection in one then dedicate it to my sours to free up a glass carboy!!!

 

[winvarin]

Somebody brought this subject up a few posts back, but I don't see where it's been explored. And I think it bears some discussion here.

OP, and any of the others who've reported problems with diacetyl here, what kind of aeration regimen are you using, what type and how long? O2? Aquarium pump? Shake? Splash during transfer?

The more I read here, the more this is sounding like yeast stress. Pitching non-rehydrated yeast results in low viability (I'd be happy to forward the email I have from Jamil himself on it); under pitching or pitching right at the borderline of a proper volume can cause stress. And boiling the wort drives air/O2 out of solution. Lack of O2 during the respiration phase of the yeast's growth cycle can also cause stress and off flavors.

I'm not saying that you did all of these. But if you did any one or a combination of these, you run the potential risk (note I say potential risk) that your yeast is left not quite healthy enough to reduce the chemicals responsible for off flavors and aromas.

Since it only happened on a couple of the OP's beers, and it sounds like they were higher gravity worts, it sounds to me like you may have just had the perfect storm of factors to overwhelm the yeast on these couple of occasions.

If you're set against using us-05, nobody's going to stop you, regardless of what they say. I would however, encourage you to look beyond the product, just to be sure. This yeast has been such a reliable, clean-fermenting work horse for so many of us. It would make me sad to have to eliminate it from my stable of "go to" yeasts.

 

[edmanster]

i dont even bother to areate most times with my cream ale's when using us-05 and thats where you would notice the diacetyl.. i still think it a OG gravity issue and not leaving it on the cake long enough!!

 

[bovineblitz]

I think it's mainly not leaving it on the yeast long enough. Diacetyl is produced in every fermentation to some degree.

 

[Indyking]

I aerate using pure O2 for about 1 minute thru a stone that has been boiled for 20 minutes. Can't think of a more efficient way the oxygenate.

According to Mr. Malty pitch rate calculation, 1 11.5gr packet of dry yeast was right what I need for my 1.060 wort. Yes, I always re-hydrate in boiled water, after it cools down of course.

Look guys. I'm not a beginner with dry yeast. In fact about 40% of my brewing is done with either S-04, US-05 or W-34/70. All worked great except 2 batches with US-05. After I started searching around, I found more than just a few that reported diacetyl problems with US-05. In the best case scenario this yeast is at least prone to produce diacetyl. Of course, everybody that never had problems with it, is convinced I must have done something wrong, despite of the fact that I did not have the same problem with any of my other 40 plus batches brewed at very similar conditions! Human nature is amazing.

 

[bovineblitz]

Only time I really had a problem with diacetyl with US-05 was a DIPA that a pro brewer picked up on.. now every beer over a 1.050 OG, US-05 gets rehydrated and left on the cake an extra week.. that seemed to solve it for me..

I had this issues when I started brewing because I fermented too hot and didn't let the beer sit on the yeast cake for at least 2.5 weeks. Now I do 21 day primary fermentations every time 65F for the first week and then 70F for 2 more weeks, then bottle.

I had this problem twice using 05. The first time resolved itself after I warmed it and let it sit for 2 more weeks. The other I had to add a bit of sugar to get the yeast active again, that seemed to help it clean up. But I have used it many many times without any issue. I couldn't find the explanation.

US-05 tends to be very clean for me and most I've seen post and talked with.
You do have to treat it well, like all other yeast strains.
I'd like to see your detailed notes on your entire brewing and fermentation process, including sanitation, before I'd blame it on the yeast. How about giving those to us so we can see?
Temp control, pitch rate, poor fermentation practices, and infection all come to my mind when I hear diacetyl and this yeast strain.

If you're done with this yeast I'll take any extras off your hands. It would save me the $3.99 each. I doubt the diacetyl is going anywhere now if the beer is off the yeast cake, but we can hope age will help.
Cheers.

Yes but lots of cleaning up happens after fermentation is over. 2 weeks clearly hasn't worked for you in this case. This is my point, take it or leave it.

Steve da sleeve

I agree with this suggestion. I never keg any beers before the 3 week mark, and usually leave in primary for 4 - 6 weeks, and I've never had diacetyl problems. Of course, I've never used S-05, but I've used PLENTY of strains notorious for diacetyl if not treated properly.

You say 2 weeks has always worked for you, but this is a curious viewpoint given your stories of multiple beers with diacetyl problems. Two weeks is great if everything else fell into place and the yeast produce very little diacetyl to begin with, but if this isn't the case, then usually just another week or two in primary will allow the yeast to clean up diacetyl very efficiently, even at 68 degrees.

I think it's mainly not leaving it on the yeast long enough. Diacetyl is produced in every fermentation to some degree.

Human nature is amazing, I agree.


Additionally:
If the diacetyl is getting worse over time, it's probably an infection.