Upland Brewing Secret Barrel Society

[SmarterThanTheAvgBear]

Hahahahaha lol, wut?

Science, bro.

 

[salzar1]

Any time somebody releases a silly priced sour, I just mention NG wild sour ale. You guys are crazy. 9.99/4pk vs 40/bottle... wat?

I don't think the NG wild sour ale compares to many of the "silly priced sour" beers. I found them to be more fruit forward and sweet than I like in sour beers.

 

[kawilliams81]

I don't think the NG wild sour ale compares to many of the "silly priced sour" beers. I found them to be more fruit forward and sweet than I like in sour beers.

It is more fruit sour than a straight sour or American wild ale, but I would describe as "******* delicious"!

 

[ridglens]

I don't think the NG wild sour ale compares to many of the "silly priced sour" beers. I found them to be more fruit forward and sweet than I like in sour beers.

you should try this, best of both worlds:

 

[aasher]

FWIW I asked the Indiana Excise if there was anything prohibiting prepaying for beer like Upland mentioned.

"Nothing in the Alcoholic Beverage Code prohibits customers from paying for beer ahead of time, then picking it up later." -Indiana Excise

 

[xnicknj]

 

[yeahnatenelson]

FWIW I asked the Indiana Excise if there was anything prohibiting prepaying for beer like Upland mentioned.

"Nothing in the Alcoholic Beverage Code prohibits customers from paying for beer ahead of time, then picking it up later." -Indiana Excise

Could you forward me that info? It looks like I might be interviewing Caleb about this whole debacle sometime next month.

 

[SmarterThanTheAvgBear]

Could you forward me that info? It looks like I might be interviewing Caleb about this whole debacle sometime next month.

"Hey yo Caleb, why'd you **** up so bad?"

 

[aasher]

Could you forward me that info? It looks like I might be interviewing Caleb about this whole debacle sometime next month.

It was on Twitter, I copied and pasted exactly what they said.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

It was on Twitter, I copied and pasted exactly what they said.

Link? Cannot find.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

It was on Twitter, I copied and pasted exactly what they said.

Did @ExcisePolice delete their reply? I see your tweet date stamped 17 October, but their last tweet was 13 October.

So what happened?

 

[aasher]

Personal reply


image by al.asher, on Flickr

 

[yeahnatenelson]

Personal reply


image by al.asher, on Flickr

This...is very interesting. However, not a caught-red-handed kind of response as if they had directly replied to your tweet. In order to get more concrete evidence I have emailed the offices of District 4 (Bloomington) and District 6 (Indianapolis) of the IN Excise Police to get some concrete clarification.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this one, Al!

 

[aasher]

This...is very interesting. However, not a caught-red-handed kind of response as if they had directly replied to your tweet. In order to get more concrete evidence I have emailed the offices of District 4 (Bloomington) and District 6 (Indianapolis) of the IN Excise Police to get some concrete clarification.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this one, Al!

Yeah I don't know why they didn't just publicly reply to the tweet. I can't start a dialogue with them unless they follow me.

 

[MordorMongo]

I think so many people canceled that charge that it has PayPal concerned. They called to verify it was a valid charge. Girl was a tad confused when I said it was valid despite my clear retardation. Then I told her I did in fact pay $250 for the right to buy 8 bottles of beer for $25 plus tax each. She actually laughed at me.

Srs.

 

[JohnfromPurdue]

In order to get more concrete evidence I have emailed the offices of District 4 (Bloomington) and District 6 (Indianapolis) of the IN Excise Police to get some concrete clarification.

Wow, that's dedication Holmes. I'm satisfied with my assumption that Upland is wrong. No facts needed, those just take time and effort.

 

[jmarsh123]

I just signed up for a Rare Barrel membership. Yes, I chose to sign up for a society 2000 miles away where I will have to deal with shipping and thank you boxes over signing up for one that is 5 miles from my home. Again, Upland, you're doing it wrong.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

So I've been exchanging emails with someone (no idea who) at the District 6 office of the Indiana Alcohol & Tobacco Commission ([email protected]) about the whole illegal presale argument. Here's our convo up to now:


Me: Hello, I'm a writer for a craft beer culture and industry blog. Upland Brewing Company, which has a point-of-sale in Indianapolis, recently claimed in an advertisement that, quote, "it isillegal in Indiana to pre-sell or discount beer in any fashion."

In this advertisement, their meaning of 'pre-sell' is for consumers of legal drinking age to pay in advance for packaged beer to be redeemed later.

Could you please verify if the pre-sale of packaged beer, or discounting of any kind, is illegal in any of the counties in District 6 or the state of Indiana as a whole?

ATC: Upland Brewing is correct. In the state of Indiana it is illegal to sell(pre) alcoholic beverages at a discount with a few exceptions for establishments that have on premise consumption. IC 7.1-5-5-7.​

I reviewed IC 7.1-5-5-7, but it appears to only cover the discounting of beer or flavored malt beverages. I am more interested in Upland's claim that it is unlawful for them to pre-sell beer even at full retail price.

For clarification: would it be legal for Upland to pre-sell alcoholic beverages at full retail price? By this I mean that a customer would pay for packaged beer at full retail price to be redeemed at a later date.

There is no way for a retail establishment to know exactly what their prices will be from day-to-day. The price a patron pre-pays today may not be that price tomorrow during pick-up and that would fall under price discrimination.​

But in this case Upland is the producer AND distributor as their establishments are the only points of sale for these products. Given that Upland can set the prices for these products, is there anything within IC that prevents Upland from pre-selling beers?

For some background, Upland recently began offering memberships to a club for the price of $250. This price includes entrance to certain events, merchandise and the right to purchase a set number of bottles of their beer. The cost of these bottles is not included in the membership as Upland is claiming to do so would be a violation of Indiana state law. Their advertisement can be found here: http://secretbarrelsociety.wordpress.com/

I made no reference to producer or distributor neither is a factor. Every business can set their price and that price can change from day-to-day. Retail establishments run specials and sales all the time as does Upland Brewing. The potential for price discrimination is still a factor.​

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This person's argument is that since specially discounting items for certain groups is illegal and prices are variable that Upland is risking price discrimination by having Secret Barrel members pay in advance, despite Upland being in complete control of setting their own price point.

I think this person isn't fully grasping Upland's situation. However, if this is the kind of opinion that Upland has received from the state alcohol authority I can't blame them for not including payment of the bottles in their membership.

 

[DenverBeerDrinker]

But why can't they provide beers that are only available to members? Then this law is a non-factor because no matter what the price is from day to day only people who bought into the club will get the bottles. Hence the price for all bottles given to the club members would be the same for everyone.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

But why can't they provide beers that are only available to members?

That's not what Upland intends to do. The whole marketing pitch in the emails was that you didn't have to worry about applying for the lotteries, like everybody else who wanted to purchase the lambics.

 

[Boilerfood]

Thanks for that yeahnatenelson

But why can't they provide beers that are only available to members? Then this law is a non-factor because no matter what the price is from day to day only people who bought into the club will get the bottles. Hence the price for all bottles given to the club members would be the same for everyone.

I am fairly sure that this would violate a different law.

 

[aasher]

The whole "price discrimination" issue is really vague. Items go on sale frequently for an entire month, and then revert back to normal pricing at the end of that month. So is it "discriminating" when a customer buys something on October 31st then has to pay more on November 1st?

Also, why would they send me the message that they did? It seems to be a contradiction.

 

[Boilerfood]

The whole "price discrimination" issue is really vague. Items go on sale frequently for an entire month, and then revert back to normal pricing at the end of that month. So is it "discriminating" when a customer buys something on October 31st then has to pay more on November 1st?

Also, why would they send me the message that they did? It seems to be a contradiction.

I think what this highlights is that our liquors laws are somewhat archaic, incredibly vague, and open to multiple interpretations. I can't blame Upland for deciding that if Excise cant agree amongst themselves, then its best to play it safe.

 

[sidetracked]

The ATC logic seems flawed in that they say is illegal to pre-sell the beer because the price may go up, when in reality the code reads that it is only illegal to sell at a discount. So, it seems like no law would be broken UNTIL Upland sells bottles of a pre-sold beer at a higher cost than the pre-sale.

 

[aasher]

Also, in their response they did not answer the question "Is it ok for Upland to presell beer". They said it is not ok to presell beer at a discount. Since Upland is advertising the pricing before anyone pays, I think they are in the clear to sell.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

The ATC logic seems flawed in that they say is illegal to pre-sell the beer because the price may go up, when in reality the code reads that it is only illegal to sell at a discount. So, it seems like no law would be broken UNTIL Upland sells bottles of a pre-sold beer at a higher cost than the pre-sale.

Regardless of what you think of their opinion or reasoning, this is coming from the local authority on alcohol laws and regulations. Being on the wrong side of this opinion could close their business. Simply saying that you think their reasoning is flawed doesn't preclude you from abiding by the legal opinion that comes from it.

I definitely agree with you, but if you were in Upland's shoes, why on earth would you risk it?

 

[sidetracked]

Regardless of what you think of their opinion or reasoning, this is coming from the local authority on alcohol laws. Being on the wrong side of this opinion could close their business. Simply saying that you think their reasoning is flawed doesn't preclude you from abiding by the legal opinion that comes from it.

I definitely agree with you, but if you were in Upland's shoes, why on earth would you risk it?

Correct. I am no lawyer.

 

[Kentucky1]

I just don't want to pay $250 just to be able to walk in the door and start spending money. I'll take Crooked Stave Cellar Reserve for $350, Alex.

And thanks to Nate for going after this!

 

[yeahnatenelson]

I was hoping this exercise would provide some clarity, but I'm left with the opinion that I started with: presales are probably legal in IN, and Upland likely got bad legal advise.

 

[aasher]

You could always dig further, and give the exact details Upland gave...