Treehouse Style IPA's

[spenghali]

23 ounces of hops seems insane for 5 gallons. In my opinion, if you employ certain techniques, such as moving all your hops to a hop stand (except the bittering charge) at the right temperature, dry hopping 2-3 times (3-4 days contact), and flushing all vessels with CO2 when possible. Dry hop once towards the end of primary, again in secondary, and/or keg hop. I've never had to go over 8 ounces at the hop stand and usually use 4-6 ounces. Then 2 dry hop additions additions of 2-3 ounces each, once towards the end of primary and once in a flushed keg. I then will jump the keg off the hops into another flushed keg and carbonate. This method achieves the juiciness you seek. Keep your crystal malts at 2% or less, and 20% oats will be great for mouth feel appearance.

For cloudiness, try keeping your calcium to a minimum (just what is required for yeast health, as it will greatly aid in clarifying your beers). Though this can be a challenge with getting sulfate levels high. Also, as mentioned, yeast choice will greatly effect clarity, flavor, aroma, etc. One of the juiciest IPAs I make is a mixed ferment with brett and an english strain.

 

[m00ps]

Really intrigued by the idea of adding flour. Think that'd work in other styles? I'm thinking of brewing a low IBU but hoppy (big hop stand at 180 degrees, just a little bittering) American wheat. Good fit for adding flour?

I convinced my local brewery to start using flour in their wheats since they clear within a week of kegging. My OJ inspired double IPA was still very cloudy after 4 weeks in the keg. I also think the flour helped with its body

 

[m00ps]

I like my IPAs a bit insane...

 

[Calichusetts]

I don't use flour and some of my IPAs take weeks to clear, some never really do.

 

[henchman24]

When I was reading on adding flour... I read about people doing it to keep wits from clearing over weeks in the keg. If you want some haze in a beer I think it would work across styles. In the end it is just wheat (assuming people are just using normal all purpose flour). I've even read that Chimay uses flour in their beer.

All my IPAs have some haze and usually don't fully clear by the time I am done (most only last 2-4 weeks)... adding flour took it to a totally different level. If I still had one on tap, I'd take a picture... Next time I brew one, I'll be sure to snap a pic and post it up here.

 

[BreezyBrew]

adding flour took it to a totally different level. If I still had one on tap, I'd take a picture... Next time I brew one, I'll be sure to snap a pic and post it up here.

Okay, in your mind, are there appreciable differences in flavor?

That would be the only reason for me to do so.

 

[m00ps]

This is a DIPA that I used 4oz of flour in the boil. 4 weeks in the keg. Also had flaked wheats and oats to help with the body since I spiked fermentation with a saison yeast to get nice and dry it to 1.006

I think the flour helped a bit with body, in addition to the oats/wheat

edit: whoops realized I put up the same pic already. cant unattach it....my bad

 

[henchman24]

Okay, in your mind, are there appreciable differences in flavor?

That would be the only reason for me to do so.

There was. It had more body (this was easily noticeable) and the fruity part of the hops seemed to be more prominent (my theory is the flour gives them more to contrast off of). I brewed IPAs on back to back weeks with the same yeast (Conan), same grain bill minus flour (75% 2 row/20% malted wheat/5% flaked wheat), both had .75lbs of dextrose, and had the same hop schedule except the bittering at 90 min (Warrior vs Columbus... roughly the same calculated IBUs at 60). Obviously the flour bumped up the alcohol a touch, but the non floured was 1.074... floured 1.076 (part of that could be a minor efficiency variation). Both finished at 1.012.

 

[m00ps]

Yeah I looked up and found some random PPG value for flour and estimated my 4oz to contribute +0.001-002. Basically negligible

 

[henchman24]

That seems about right with my (limited) experience with it.

 

[arnobg]

@M00ps was nice enough to trade some brews with me and I just tried the DIPA he is talking about. Took a photo in better lighting and the cloudiness looks great....didn't think it was possible to be so clear and cloudy at the same time if that even makes sense. The aroma and juicy flavor is not describable...fantastic!

 

[kevink]

@M00ps was nice enough to trade some brews with me and I just tried the DIPA he is talking about. Took a photo in better lighting and the cloudiness looks great....didn't think it was possible to be so clear and cloudy at the same time if that even makes sense. The aroma and juicy flavor is not describable...fantastic!

Looks nice. Can you compare the juice character or other aspects to any commercial brews?

 

[iijakii]

Man I really need to brew an IPA with some flour now.

 

[iijakii]

Might try adding some flour to one of my stouts and see if it makes a noticeable increase to the body as well.

 

[Bosh]

Sorry for all of the questions, but for these floury IPAs no gelatin or finings then? Cold crash?

 

[thed163]

The picture attached, looks like a modern trillium brew. They have gotten more clear as time had progressed but still cloudy. Just like the picture.
So the haze is on point with this flour note.

 

[olotti]

Couldn't it be that these breweries aren't really concerend with filtering or cold crashing to clear the beer plus they prob use a ridiculous amount of late hops and dry hops which will leave a haze plus their yeast strain could all contribute to a more hazy beer. I actually prefer a cloud or hazy beer idk why its just me, I'm just trying to wrap my head around purposely hazing a beer by adding flour, kudos to moops for his experimentation, not knocking that, but I can't image the big guys are adding flour to their beer so shouldn't we be able to find the way they do it other than fabricate it?

 

[m00ps]

@arnobg

Thanks. Glad you liked it. Also glad my taste buds werent just playing tricks on me all this time...

 

[henchman24]

Sorry for all of the questions, but for these floury IPAs no gelatin or finings then? Cold crash?

That would go against the whole trying to keep it hazy thought, so no. Cold crashing happens in the keg regardless since it has to get cold at some point, but I wouldn't think about cold crashing in the fermentor if going after this style.

Couldn't it be that these breweries aren't really concerend with filtering or cold crashing to clear the beer plus they prob use a ridiculous amount of late hops and dry hops which will leave a haze plus their yeast strain could all contribute to a more hazy beer. I actually prefer a cloud or hazy beer idk why its just me, I'm just trying to wrap my head around purposely hazing a beer by adding flour, kudos to moops for his experimentation, not knocking that, but I can't image the big guys are adding flour to their beer so shouldn't we be able to find the way they do it other than fabricate it?

With my IPAs in general, but especially this style... I'm haven't been in the least concerned with filtering (I never have filtered) and cold crashing. I have used a ridiculous amount of hops and used yeast to closer replicate the style... I could get hazy, but not to the same level.

As I said earlier, I've read that Chimay actually uses flour in their beers... so Treehouse, Trillium, Tired Hand etc may not use flour, but some breweries do. When you get down to the brass tacks here wheat flour is ground up wheat without the husks (and obviously not malted). With enough flaked wheat, you could probably get the same result as I got. The flour just made it easier to achieve. When using flour in the boil, that doesn't allow the starch to get converted in the mash and will create some intentional starch haze... I haven't used more than a tablespoon yet in that area.

 

[Calichusetts]

Chimay uses flour for head retention. They crash their beer for clarity

 

[henchman24]

Chimay uses flour for head retention. They crash their beer for clarity

Point being... they use flour.

It is pretty similar to using flaked wheat if both are in the mash.

 

[m00ps]

As I said earlier, I've read that Chimay actually uses flour in their beers... so Treehouse, Trillium, Tired Hand etc may not use flour, but some breweries do. When you get down to the brass tacks here wheat flour is ground up wheat without the husks (and obviously not malted). With enough flaked wheat, you could probably get the same result as I got. The flour just made it easier to achieve. When using flour in the boil, that doesn't allow the starch to get converted in the mash and will create some intentional starch haze... I haven't used more than a tablespoon yet in that area.

LOL brass tacks....sorry off topic

Yeah I added 1/4lb of flour to my boil in the pics of that double IPA I and @arnobg posted. I also used 2 lbs of flaked wheat and 2 lbs of flaked oats, as well as Conan (which is notorious for poor flocculation). I think all of these factors are what gave it a permanent haze that was still there after a month in the keg

 

[arnobg]

Looks nice. Can you compare the juice character or other aspects to any commercial brews?

Honestly not really because I haven't had many of this style of IPA that you guys are describing in this discussion.

All I can describe is that it is very thick, juicy, and has an intense hop aroma and flavor without the extreme bitterness that should come with this kind of hop flavor. It also seems very dry but I think that's because he blended a Saison yeast (correct me if I am wrong @m00ps). It has a balanced bitterness that carries through from the initial taste to aftertaste.

Couldn't it be that these breweries aren't really concerend with filtering or cold crashing to clear the beer plus they prob use a ridiculous amount of late hops and dry hops which will leave a haze plus their yeast strain could all contribute to a more hazy beer. I actually prefer a cloud or hazy beer idk why its just me, I'm just trying to wrap my head around purposely hazing a beer by adding flour, kudos to moops for his experimentation, not knocking that, but I can't image the big guys are adding flour to their beer so shouldn't we be able to find the way they do it other than fabricate it?

I really think there is more going on here with the flour than just hazing. This beer has a thick bodied mouthfeel. I'll be honest that I probably don't have the experience to say it is from the flour or grain bill etc....I just know that the mouthfeel I am describing is there without a doubt.

 

[m00ps]

Yeah I used some wyeast 3711, which is known for adding some mouthfeel to the beer given how high it attenuates. I think this, along with the other factors, got me the nice body on a 9% IPA that has an FG of 1.006

definitely have to try brewing this again. Maybe go for mango juice instead of OJ

 

[henchman24]

Yeah I added 1/4lb of flour to my boil in the pics of that double IPA I and @arnobg posted. I also used 2 lbs of flaked wheat and 2 lbs of flaked oats, as well as Conan (which is notorious for poor flocculation). I think all of these factors are what gave it a permanent haze that was still there after a month in the keg

Have you tried mashing some flour?

I'm going to give just throwing it into the boil a shot the next time I get around to one of these beers. The best part of homebrewing is the experimentation. :rockin:

I don't know all the science behind it, but there is something to the flour in all of this. It does dramatically change the beers, side by side to the other IPA I had that was near identical in every other way was a night and day difference. For the better IMO.

 

[m00ps]

Yeah, I tried adding some flour to both the mash and boil for a hefe I did shortly after my DIPA. I used whole wheat flour. Figured its about the same as the fine dust at the bottom of your ground grains. Cant say for sure if the mash looked any hazier, but I included the 4oz I added as 4oz more wheat for OG calculations

 

[BreezyBrew]

Not to be the Devils Advocate here, but has anyone ever thought that the flour might just be a commercial brewing process rather than the actual ingredient itself? If the way that the commercial guys crush their grain much finer. Wouldn't that produce a lot of "flour"?

Not trying to knock anyone on this thread regarding their research. Just a thought.

 

[m00ps]

Yeah thats what I think with mashing flour at least. Not really different than having very dry or finely ground grain.

But adding it to the boil seems different since by now, all the grains should be gone and only the wort sugars remain. It also seems to be what gives it permanent haze

 

[Remmy]

Haze in IPAs - the next hipster fad.

 

[ejf063]

subscribed

 

[henchman24]

Not to be the Devils Advocate here, but has anyone ever thought that the flour might just be a commercial brewing process rather than the actual ingredient itself? If the way that the commercial guys crush their grain much finer. Wouldn't that produce a lot of "flour"?

Not trying to knock anyone on this thread regarding their research. Just a thought.

Milling it really fine would result in a bunch of 'flour'... which is why it isn't that off the wall of a concept in the mash when you really think about it (boil is a slightly different story). Flour is ground grain without the husks. It makes it easier to get the same result as using more flaked wheat on a home brewing scale without the sparge issues of milling all the grain so fine (I have said enough flaked wheat would probably produce a similar result). Pulling out another saying here... more than 1 way to skin a cat.

This is one of those situations that I think it sounds crazier than it really is.

Haze in IPAs - the next hipster fad.

I think we are already in the middle of the fad.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Haze in IPAs - the next hipster fad.

I can hear Dar already "That is staight juice boys"

 

[m00ps]

Im already filtering and fining my intentionally hazed IPAs with gelatin

But Ive moved onto hazy stouts. Its so hazy you cant even see how dark it is

 

[lilbova3]

Great info. Subscribed.

 

[m00ps]

hey @arnobg
can I use that pic you posted of my IPA for the article? The lighting and everything is much better than the one I snapped a while back to try and show the clarity

 

[arnobg]

hey @arnobg
can I use that pic you posted of my IPA for the article? The lighting and everything is much better than the one I snapped a while back to try and show the clarity

Absolutely man. I'll trade you the pic for another

Seriously though go for it!

 

[lilbova3]

I've drank a good bit of beer from Tired Hands here in Philly, and the beers you describe sound very similar to their style. I've even tried my hand at a clone which came out pretty good but still a bit short. My brew was based on this great article: http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/08/tired-hands-hophands-clone-revisted.html

I think the keys are:
* Use flaked or golden oats for mouthfeel.
* Use English Ale yeast (Tired Hands uses Wyeast London Ale III and I do to) for the fruity character and cloudiness it brings.
* Use more hops than seems sane. If you aren't buying hops by the pound you shouldn't even attempt these styles because you will go broke. Get a cheap vacuum sealer, buy in bulk.

This is what I would think for the cloudiness, adding oats, and I'm sure an English yeast strain would contribute as well. Not saying flour is incorrect but it would just be hard for me to throw flour in a beer. I've never done it or tasted one with it so I can't really say much in regards to it though.

Stouts that I've made and added oats to have never gotten that mouthfeel I'm looking for compared to some of the great stouts from craft breweries. That soft, pillowy and stick to your teeth viscosity feel. I love swirly the glass with a stout in it and seeing the beer sticking to the glass! I've usually kept my oats around 10%, but after reading the article you posted about this one recipe having 18%, I'd like to give that a try.

 

[m00ps]

I would keep an eye on the amount of golden naked oats you use though. They do help with head retention but are basically a crystal type of oat. Dont get me wrong, they are delicious enough to pour milk over and eat with a spoon, but any more than 5% or so will lead to a very sweet IPA. They arent really a substitute for regular flaked oats. IME, flaked oats and flaked wheat work great for this type of IPA

 

[Sully896]

At what point in the boil are you adding the flour? I'm intrigued...

 

[m00ps]

At what point in the boil are you adding the flour? I'm intrigued...

I did like 10min from the end of the boil. Watch out though, if you just dump it in, it can clump, especially if you dont have a very vigorous boil. What Im gonna do next time is make a slurry with a bit of warm water in a tupperware container by shaking it up and adding that to the boil