Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

[hezagenius]

I'm sure King will hit distro this week or next.

 

[paarman]

I'm located near La Crosse, and I've heard it's supposed to land here next week. So I would imagine between now and then you guys should be seeing distro in Iowa. I've heard the cans from the brewery are pretty green right now.. So should be great in a couple weeks. I plan on grabbing a 4pk for sure.

Pompeii has still really impressed me in cans I think more than anything so far.

 

[gwapogorilla]

Okay...long ass thread. So what did the final recipe and water profile come out to be?

 

[Braufessor]

Okay...long ass thread. So what did the final recipe and water profile come out to be?

Check Post #461.... that is my take on it, as well as some of the details on page 10/11. (***That assumes 40 posts per page setting).

 

[paarman]

So the beer has turned out great. Of the few people I've had try it, all have loved it. One guy said its the best citra bursted-flavor he's had in a beer in some time. I did DDH hop it when I transferred into keg, which I'm happy with that flavor. I did a side by side a couple nights ago with canned Sue... It's very very close, and I probably wouldn't be able to pick the two apart. I'd like to give it another shot though, as I was a few beers in at that point.

I'm really impressed with how it turned out. Along the way, the samples had me a bit worried. But the beer finished very fast.. Like within 7 days I'm guessing. I ended up moving it to a keg on the 9th day, there was just barely any airlock activity.

 

[paarman]

The one on the metal surface is the homebrew next to a DDH sue bottle.. just to compare to actual DDH Sue next to a bottle in the other pic.

The other two are the colors in different lighting. Turned out great!

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I found the bombers to always be a bit hit and miss. I was a little skeptical on the pour.... it is a touch "murky" compared to the best King Sue I have had in the past. The best ones I have had looked very much like orange juice. This one was a bit dull in its visual brightness..... however, the flavor is really good. Nice mouthfeel, good carbonation, very good hop flavor, very drinkable. I would not say it is the best King Sue I have ever had..... but, it is well above average King Sue in my opinion.
So - honestly, my only real critique would have more to do with appearance than flavor..... I have had King Sue that was more visually appealing. The flavor and aroma is right in the ball park though.
Honestly, the beer I have been most impressed with since they opened the new brewery and started canning is Golden Nugget. Not sure if you guys have tried that since they started canning it, but the ones I have had so far have really been spectacular.

I agree with this completely.

 

[paarman]

Had the last drops of this last week.. Good til the very end. Left hops inside the keg throughout. I will definitely be brewing this one up again in the future.

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

We should be careful. TG might issue us non-compete clauses...

 

[WiscoBrewer]

We should be careful. TG might issue us non-compete clauses...

The topplers acting like the goliath!

 

[Braufessor]

I move that we rename the beer in this thread...... I am thinking we should call it "Trade Secrets."

Honestly, there are really few things that I have less time for in the brewing community than this nonsense of "proprietary ingredients" or "trade secrets" - give me a break. There just is not really anything super special about any beer..... least of all a recipe, and, especially a NE IPA. An all-Citra IPA is honestly about as cliche as you can get at this point in the beer world.

Plus, EVERY brewer that produces good beer does so ONLY because other brewers shared THEIR "secrets" and knowledge with them. That is how everyone improves. Really disheartening to see that sort of stuff in the beer world in my opinion. I brewed mediocre beer for 10-15 years. The only reason I learned to brew consistently good beer is because dozens (hundreds) of generous brewers shared bits and pieces of what they knew. As a result, I would gladly share 100% of any recipe or process with anyone who asked or needed help. I think that is the common stance of most in the brewing world. It should be - because that is how most good brewers got to where they are too.

By the way, I have some good recipes for big, thick russian imperial stouts too

In case anyone is out of the loop: https://www.thegazette.com/subject/...-brewing-employee-cedar-rapids-rival-20180731

 

[WiscoBrewer]

What’s funny is the current brewmaster supposedly left for a short period because the owner was publicly claiming the beers as his own creations...and the contract brewing fiasco

On another note, if you look at the beers at Thew, none of them seem to be what TG is brewing. He isn’t brewing a PS he’s trying to make a living and TG is trying to stop that.

https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2018/7/31/how-to-screw-your-brewer

 

[Braufessor]

What’s funny is the current brewmaster supposedly left for a short period because the owner was claiming the beers as his own creations.

On another note, if you look at the beers at Thew, none of them seem to be what TG is brewing.

He did leave for a while and there were some other rocky times as well.

I have heard the same about Thew - seems their beers are not really TG knockoffs or anything. Even if they were...... what breweries aren't making Hazy NEIPA's? This stuff is not a "secret." We, as home brewers, prove that all the time on these forums by helping each other brew similar, and even better beers than we can buy.

 

[couchsending]

Pretty sure this is pretty common in craft beer, you just don’t hear about it cause people aren’t dumb enough to break a non compete they sign.

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

I move that we rename the beer in this thread...... I am thinking we should call it "Trade Secrets."

Honestly, there are really few things that I have less time for in the brewing community than this nonsense of "proprietary ingredients" or "trade secrets" - give me a break. There just is not really anything super special about any beer..... least of all a recipe, and, especially a NE IPA. An all-Citra IPA is honestly about as cliche as you can get at this point in the beer world.

Plus, EVERY brewer that produces good beer does so ONLY because other brewers shared THEIR "secrets" and knowledge with them. That is how everyone improves. Really disheartening to see that sort of stuff in the beer world in my opinion. I brewed mediocre beer for 10-15 years. The only reason I learned to brew consistently good beer is because dozens (hundreds) of generous brewers shared bits and pieces of what they knew. As a result, I would gladly share 100% of any recipe or process with anyone who asked or needed help. I think that is the common stance of most in the brewing world. It should be - because that is how most good brewers got to where they are too.

By the way, I have some good recipes for big, thick russian imperial stouts too

In case anyone is out of the loop: https://www.thegazette.com/subject/...-brewing-employee-cedar-rapids-rival-20180731

I'm up for a good thick black Russian stout recipe Brau!! PM me if you get a free chance.

thanks

 

[WiscoBrewer]

https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/sig...ut-over-toppling-goliaths-non-compete-lawsuit

Clark is completely within his rights to have a non compete clause, but not letting the employee take it to a lawyer or even out of the brewery before signing it brings into question his motives, what lies within the pages, or its legality. I think it’s a dick move, especially since Shenk is not brewing anything like TG beers...proprietory recipes, methods, etc please get off your high horse, this will hurt TG in public opinion more than a small brewery hiring an ex brewer.

 

[TxBigHops]

https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/sig...ut-over-toppling-goliaths-non-compete-lawsuit

Clark is completely within his rights to have a non compete clause, but not letting the employee take it to a lawyer or even out of the brewery before signing it brings into question his motives, what lies within the pages, or its legality. I think it’s a dick move, especially since Shenk is not brewing anything like TG beers...proprietory recipes, methods, etc please get off your high horse, this will hurt TG in public opinion more than a small brewery hiring an ex brewer.

Agreed that this could hurt TG. This is not the attitude that the industry normally represents.

 

[WIexile]

Most current batch, tasting really good. Shot from opposite angles.

 

[bremski]

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The one on the metal surface is the homebrew next to a DDH sue bottle.. just to compare to actual DDH Sue next to a bottle in the other pic.

The other two are the colors in different lighting. Turned out great!

Looks great! What was your final recipe if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[Tarpon87]

Whats peoples opinions on the current citra crop? Ive heard a lot of not so good reviews. I just used up the last of my 2017 citra and looking at buying a few pounds of 2018

 

[WIexile]

Whats peoples opinions on the current citra crop? Ive heard a lot of not so good reviews. I just used up the last of my 2017 citra and looking at buying a few pounds of 2018

From what I've seen it's hit and miss so far. Just brewed up a double batch of my Sue clone, one with 2018 Citra and one with 2016 crop.

2016 is better...

 

[couchsending]

Citra is now the number one grown hop as far as acreage goes in the Northwest. It’s now grown in 3 states as well. No offense but home brewers saying this year’s crop is hit or miss or is not as good as other years is just a bit odd. Hops vary so drastically from place to place, processsing facility, how they were store before you got them etc. there’s no way unless you could literally compare hops from the exact same farm and time of harvest as the previous year.

We have no idea what hops were getting and are honestly at the bottom of the pile.

I’d say try different suppliers if you’re unhappy with a a certain bag.

I’ve been very happy with the Citra I’ve got from Hops Direct the last few years, this year is no exception.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

home brewers saying this year’s crop is hit or miss or is not as good as other years is just a bit odd.

Vintage variation is just as much a thing in hops as it is in eg wine grapes. I assume it's not as obvious in somewhere like the PNW as it is in eg the UK, but if you did the impossible experiment of simultaneously giving me green hop beers made from EKG of the last few years, I reckon I could identify the vintage 80-90% of the time, they are that different. It was always a routine for commercial brewers in previous generations to taste the new season's crop of both hops and barley, and adjust the recipe to compensate for those variations.

Weather may play less of a part in the PNW, but Citra has the obvious problem that the huge expansion of acreage has led to less experienced farmers growing it, and it does seem quite sensitive to harvest time etc which novice growers may not have so nailed down. That was also a problem around 2012-ish. But generally, I heard a lot of complaints from commercial brewers about the 2017 crop of Citra, I've not been aware of the same problems in the 2018 vintage.

But it can be hard for homebrewers to distinguish that kind of thing from just getting a bad batch - hence this thread.

 

[paarman]

Looks great! What was your final recipe if you don’t mind me asking?

I followed these posts and made tiny alterations, I'd have to look back in my notes if you're looking for any specific changes.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-can-you-clone-it.443295/page-11#post-7854328

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-can-you-clone-it.443295/page-12#post-8272216

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I followed these posts and made tiny alterations, I'd have to look back in my notes if you're looking for any specific changes.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-can-you-clone-it.443295/page-11#post-7854328

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-can-you-clone-it.443295/page-12#post-8272216

Just curious, but what yeast did you end up going with? My cord for my 20L Braumeister comes on Wednesday so I'd like this to be my inaugural batch for doing my small test batches(2.5G-5G) in the BM. Then if I like them, I can throw them on the 30 gallon.

I usually use 1318 for my NEIPAs, but I'd really like to know what yeast they are using for Pseudo Sue, or the closest thing to it.

Edit: must have somehow skipped the whole first half of page 13 somehow. So maybe I'll break it down into two 2.5 gallon batches and use S-04 for one and 007 for the other. Then see if my brew club can distinguish any difference. I don't see you guys mentioning what fermentation temps though for the 007 and S-04 for this specific beer?

 

[couchsending]

Just curious, but what yeast did you end up going with? My cord for my 20L Braumeister comes on Wednesday so I'd like this to be my inaugural batch for doing my small test batches(2.5G-5G) in the BM. Then if I like them, I can throw them on the 30 gallon.

I usually use 1318 for my NEIPAs, but I'd really like to know what yeast they are using for Pseudo Sue, or the closest thing to it.

Edit: must have somehow skipped the whole first half of page 13 somehow. So maybe I'll break it down into two 2.5 gallon batches and use S-04 for one and 007 for the other. Then see if my brew club can distinguish any difference. I don't see you guys mentioning what fermentation temps though for the 007 and S-04 for this specific beer?

Those yeasts are best kept at 64ish for the first 48-72 hours then slowly raised to 68/69 for the end of fermentation.

 

[paarman]

I went with WLP007 for yeast. I went back and fourth, but after much reading this is the "original"yeast used with it, and that's what I wanted to hit close to-it delivered. I use 1318 for my NEIPAs too, and I have never been disappointed with it. I just strictly went for the closest clone I could get. I wouldn't be opposed to trying 1318 in this now.

And couchsending is correct. I fermented between 65-67, just because I didn't have an area to get any cooler than that. After about a week or so, I moved the fermenter up to around 70* and let it finish out. I'm a firm believer in climbing fermentation temps-love the fruity flavors it brings out.

 

[jturman35]

I have never had this beer but it looks great! I never had Sip of Sunshine I till after I brewed it, recipe was spot on. This is why I got into home brewing to make beer that I either couldn’t get, or too expensive. I plan on brewing this next!

 

[WIexile]

Glad to see a little more life in this forum again.

Latest version of DDH Sue clone.

 

[WIexile]

I have never had this beer but it looks great! I never had Sip of Sunshine I till after I brewed it, recipe was spot on. This is why I got into home brewing to make beer that I either couldn’t get, or too expensive. I plan on brewing this next!

Great choice! One of my favorite beers to brew and my favorite house beer. Good luck and let us know how it goes.