Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

[paarman]

Thanks! I figured it was solely Mosaic in the dry hop based on the name, but didn't want to assume and wanted to hear other thoughts.

I'll probably attempt to brew this up later this Summer.

 

[jturman35]

Ok, so just an update. Beer has been in keg for 16 days. Taste great, keep in mind I have never had Pseudo Sue. Judging from pics on untapped and pics of this recipe my beer below looks more like a Pale Ale. My keg has 3oz of Citra dry hops, so how can I clear up so fast?

See pic below.

 

[jturman35]

 

[paarman]

To be fair, PsuedoSue is supposed to be a pale ale. The original was clearer than it is now. Whirlpooling, dry hopping, yeast, and cold crashing can all alter the haze. Did you use any fining or filtering agents?

Only recently (like the last 2 years) did this beer take on more of a juicy, hazy look. So it's come a bit out of it's shell, but it's supposed to be a pale ale. Somewhere along the line they lowkey bumped it from 5.8% to 6.8% ABV.

 

[jturman35]

Don’t get me wrong it’s a great beer! I was just surprised how fast this thing cleared up. The first few pours looked a lot like the other beers I see in this thread. I cold crashed for 24 hours in the conical and performed a closed transfer on top of (2) hop spiders which had 1.5oz each of Citra. I used two spiders in order to give the hops more exposure.

 

[paarman]

Maybe the cold crashing? The only time I crashed was when I went to carb it up, I did a 24 hour cold crash before the carb. I was also hopping inside of the keg with about 3-4oz during the crash/carbing as well.

Just trying to figure out where it may have happened, because our brewing processes sounded very similar throughout.

 

[jturman35]

I bottled about a 12 pack just to get this beer off the 3oz of keg Citra hops. Strangely this beer cleared up in the keg, but has a haze when poured out of the bottle. Pretty sure the sediment is just getting stirred around, regardless this has probably ended up being one of my best IPA’s I have ever brewed! I don’t brew that many. Citra hops really shine, this beer reminds me of Sip of Sunshine. I have never had Pseudo Sue, would you guys say it compares to Sip of Sunshine? This may end up being a regular in my 5 keg rotation.

Cheers!

 

[ChaosB]

Brewed this with WLP067 Coastal Haze Ale Yeast.

OG: 1.069
FG: 1.010
ABV: 7.75%

The color and clarity is about right for Pseudo Sue though I'm not comparing side by side, just based on memory.

Not a strong aroma but picking up some Citra, citrus, OJ.

The taste seems weak. It doesn't taste like a whole heck of a lot of anything. Not bitter, not flavorful. Like watered down juice. and it has almost no head on it, it should be carbed to 12 PSI.

Followed the whirlpool and dry hopping schedule. 6 oz dry, split for 5 days and 3 days. cold crashed 2 days, and force carbed one day.

It's kind of dangerous being 7.75% and tasting like nothing but I was hoping it would ignite my senses. I did not clone Pseudo Sue.

While my efficiency was higher than expected, it's due to the problems that began during the mash. I ended up mashing for 100 minutes. I mashed in at 144 F which was under my target of 148 F so I mashed longer while getting the temp up, and still performed a 10 minute mashout at 168 F. Used a No sparge method with larger grain bill and HERMs recirculation to compensate. Then the tubing between my MLT bulk head and false bottom came disconnected while stirring and I got all kinds of grain in my pump which got stuck so I couldn't drain to my boil kettle. I decided to get a grain bag and scoop / dump the entire mash into it and squeeze the wort out of the bag into my boil kettle. I believe this actually caused the higher efficiency.

mash pH was a little high at 5.56.

final pH reads 5.28 @ 56 F, which according to a temperature correction calculator should be 5.21.

 

[couchsending]

TG seems to be able to get mosaic flavors I can never come close to. That said, from what I've been told at the brewery, is that they simply brew the same beer, and dry hop with only Mosaic instead of Citra.

For a home brew version, I brewed up a batch of my normal clone and dry hopped with both Citra and Mosaic, and it turned out quite good. Just defiantly not Mosaic Sue...

Cause they get Mosaic that’s nothing like the crappy Mosaic homebrewers most often get. Same with most of their hops I’d assume.

Psyched to see this thread pop up as I was just in MN over the holidays and drank a bunch of King Sue, Pseudo Sue, Twisted Galaxy, Pompeii. I must say I’ve had probably all the hyped hoppy beers in the US and I’d take the TG beers you can buy in a store over almost all of them. To be able to buy the caliber of beer that is King Sue at a random grocery is insane. They damaged their reputation a bit with the Florida brewed crap but man the stuff coming out of the the new brewery in Iowa is remarkable. Had a Pompeii brewed in March that had zero oxidation evident which was pretty amazing.

Anyways got to thinking. I know there are rumors that their yeast is 007 or So4 but has that been confirmed? Sorry haven’t read this thread in a while. Anyone harvested yeast and compared it to a 007 or So4 ferment? It just amazes me that they make one beer, Dorothy’s, with what I would assume is Cali Common yeast, and then all the rest of the beers with a different yeast. Most big breweries have a prop beer. A lowish alcohol, lowish IBU beer that acts as a source for yeast for their other beers. Dorothy’s would be that beer. There are quite a few breweries now making hazy beers with “hybrid” yeasts as they call them. I’d assume Kolsch, German Ale, and Cal Common yeasts that ferment at a wide range of temps.

Think I might actually try a WLP810 version of this beer sometime soon just to see.

 

[paarman]

I'm planning on rebrewing this beer (the mosaic hopped version) in a couple weeks, and I'm going to use harvested 1318 instead of 007 this year. Mainly out of curiousity, and I didn't feel like ordering yeast when I have more than I need in my fridge haha. I imagine it will change a little, hoping for the better.

I haven't heard anything about their yeast use, so nothing to contribute on that front unfortunately!

 

[WIexile]

Cause they get Mosaic that’s nothing like the crappy Mosaic homebrewers most often get. Same with most of their hops I’d assume.

Psyched to see this thread pop up as I was just in MN over the holidays and drank a bunch of King Sue, Pseudo Sue, Twisted Galaxy, Pompeii. I must say I’ve had probably all the hyped hoppy beers in the US and I’d take the TG beers you can buy in a store over almost all of them. To be able to buy the caliber of beer that is King Sue at a random grocery is insane. They damaged their reputation a bit with the Florida brewed crap but man the stuff coming out of the the new brewery in Iowa is remarkable. Had a Pompeii brewed in March that had zero oxidation evident which was pretty amazing.

Anyways got to thinking. I know there are rumors that their yeast is 007 or So4 but has that been confirmed? Sorry haven’t read this thread in a while. Anyone harvested yeast and compared it to a 007 or So4 ferment? It just amazes me that they make one beer, Dorothy’s, with what I would assume is Cali Common yeast, and then all the rest of the beers with a different yeast. Most big breweries have a prop beer. A lowish alcohol, lowish IBU beer that acts as a source for yeast for their other beers. Dorothy’s would be that beer. There are quite a few breweries now making hazy beers with “hybrid” yeasts as they call them. I’d assume Kolsch, German Ale, and Cal Common yeasts that ferment at a wide range of temps.

Think I might actually try a WLP810 version of this beer sometime soon just to see.

S-04 is used for at least regular Sue, Pompeii, Gnug, and a few other basic rotations. King, Sosus, Suppa, Twisted, etc.. all still use white labs 007.

On the mosaic side, I am sure you are some what right about being able to grab much better hops than we can, but Im telling you that they are doing something else that's really special with Pompeii and Sosus and Mosaic Sue as I've never had any mosaic beer come any where close to them. Also I have never seen Mike more tight lipped about brewing specifics then they are with Pompeii/Sosus. I've even gotten more out of him about KBBS than those beers.
IMO these days Pompeii is their best beer. Weather fresh or months old it taste near perfect and is the only beer I feel hasn't changed at all with the move to 4 pack cans. Same for Sosus, they had a deal for $35 cases last time I was at the brewery, lets just say I left with my car fully stocked with 5 cases.

On the brewing side of things, also got a batch of Mosaic Sue fermenting, here hoping I come close. Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

Interesting, whelp thanks for answering the yeast question.

I totally agree on their mosaic beers being phenomenal. They seem to get some of the best qualities out of Mosaic without any of the weird stank you so often get from it. I’ve had better luck dry hopping Mosaic at slightly colder temps actually, like 58. Sounds counterintuitive but it seems to be more fruit forward and less dank/diesel/onion/sweat.

I would bet they get some very very specific mosaic grown in a specific region and harvested on a certain date. Mosaic is grown everywhere now and can change dramatically. It got really bad there for a while when acreage went way up. I guess Citra and mosaic have the exact same picking window and they’re two of the biggest acreage hops now so it’s hard to get them all picked and off the bines fast enough so you can also get huge variance due to that.

 

[skibb]

S-04 is used for at least regular Sue, Pompeii, Gnug, and a few other basic rotations. King, Sosus, Suppa, Twisted, etc.. all still use white labs 007.

This just seems so odd to me - makes me wonder what their 007 yeast prop beer is.

Do you know the fermentation schedule/temps they are doing for their S04 batches?

 

[ChaosB]

Brewed this with WLP067 Coastal Haze Ale Yeast.

OG: 1.069
FG: 1.010
ABV: 7.75%

The color and clarity is about right for Pseudo Sue though I'm not comparing side by side, just based on memory.

Not a strong aroma but picking up some Citra, citrus, OJ.

The taste seems weak. It doesn't taste like a whole heck of a lot of anything. Not bitter, not flavorful. Like watered down juice. and it has almost no head on it, it should be carbed to 12 PSI.

Followed the whirlpool and dry hopping schedule. 6 oz dry, split for 5 days and 3 days. cold crashed 2 days, and force carbed one day.

It's kind of dangerous being 7.75% and tasting like nothing but I was hoping it would ignite my senses. I did not clone Pseudo Sue.

While my efficiency was higher than expected, it's due to the problems that began during the mash. I ended up mashing for 100 minutes. I mashed in at 144 F which was under my target of 148 F so I mashed longer while getting the temp up, and still performed a 10 minute mashout at 168 F. Used a No sparge method with larger grain bill and HERMs recirculation to compensate. Then the tubing between my MLT bulk head and false bottom came disconnected while stirring and I got all kinds of grain in my pump which got stuck so I couldn't drain to my boil kettle. I decided to get a grain bag and scoop / dump the entire mash into it and squeeze the wort out of the bag into my boil kettle. I believe this actually caused the higher efficiency.

mash pH was a little high at 5.56.

final pH reads 5.28 @ 56 F, which according to a temperature correction calculator should be 5.21.

First couple pours were definitely still undercarbed. It's delicious now but still probably shy of being Pseudo Sue great.

 

[paarman]

I just brewed this up again, gonna dry hop strictly with Mosaic but everything else was the same as my last batch. I got incredible efficiency this time, but did change a couple things; I had all my grains double-milled, my mash temp didn’t budge for an hour, and my sparging process went a little quicker than usual (30 mins instead of 45). OG came in at 1.064 instead of 1.060. I’m also using 1318 on this one instead of 007.

Anyway, I’m excited for this one. One of the best brew days I’ve had without any errors and expectations exceeded.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I had King Sue and Pompeii recently. The Pompeii was ok but the KS was stellar, definitely top tier as you'd expect from the hype surrounding Toppling Goliath.

 

[WIexile]

I just brewed this up again, gonna dry hop strictly with Mosaic but everything else was the same as my last batch. I got incredible efficiency this time, but did change a couple things; I had all my grains double-milled, my mash temp didn’t budge for an hour, and my sparging process went a little quicker than usual (30 mins instead of 45). OG came in at 1.064 instead of 1.060. I’m also using 1318 on this one instead of 007.

Anyway, I’m excited for this one. One of the best brew days I’ve had without any errors and expectations exceeded.

View attachment 636883

View attachment 636884

Looking forward to a hearing how it turns out. Gonna brew up a Galaxy dry hopped version this weekend.

 

[guitalele811]

Do you leave the 3oz of Citra added at 0 minutes in during the whirlpool? Or is that 3oz the same 3oz you whirlpool with? Thanks!

If you have any questions on anything in particular, you can shoot me a PM. Hope this helps!

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.75 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 5.50 gal

Date: 9 Jun 2018
Brewer: Justin Paar
Equipment: Bayou 16 Gal Kettle + 10 Gal Cooler
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %

Mash @ 152* for 60 mins

Water Profile
Calcium: 148ppm
Sulfate: 150ppm
Chloride: 150ppm
Mash pH: 5.25

5 lbs 9 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
6 lbs Golden Promise (2.5 SRM)
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.4 SRM)
8.0 oz Flaked Wheat
4.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM)
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - 0 min
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Boil 35.0 min (Around 160-180*)
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) (Made a 1L starter stepped up to 1.5L starter with this)
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop on Day 2-3
3.70 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop on Day 10 (I transferred to keg by day 10)
I did the second dry hop inside of a mesh floating cylinder inside of the keg, where I let it stay until the keg was done, which was within a month.

I cold crashed the keg for 24 hours, then set to 30psi for 24 hours, purge it and set it to serving pressure and let it sit for a few days.

Ferment ~64* for 7-14 days. (Mine was at 65*, moved to 72* on day 3 with first DH, and into a keg on day 10 as it was done)

Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.9 %

 

[paarman]

Do you leave the 3oz of Citra added at 0 minutes in during the whirlpool? Or is that 3oz the same 3oz you whirlpool with? Thanks!

Yup, I add 3oz at the end of the boil, chill it down to 160-180, add 3oz more for 6oz total in the whirlpool.

 

[guitalele811]

Yup, I add 3oz at the end of the boil, chill it down to 160-180, add 3oz more for 6oz total in the whirlpool.

Thank you very much!

 

[jturman35]

I am giving this another go this weekend. This time i am thinking of changing my hop schedule and water profile on this batch to get a more rounded mouthfeel. Last batch i did 150 Sulfate/ 100 Chloride which was crisp and nice for a pale ale, the best IPA i have brewed. This go round i am going 150 Chloride / 100 Sulfate to see how it affects mouth feel and roundness. Any thoughts?

6.5lb Maris Otter
6.5lb 2 Row
12oz flake oats
12oz flaked wheat
5oz Honey malt
Imperial Juice yeast

1.5oz Citra at 15 min
1.5oz Citra at Flameout
3oz Citra Whirlpool (180-150, @ 20- 30 mins)

2oz Citra Dry Hop (day 2-3)
2oz Citra Dry Hop (day 7-10)

mash 154

 

[paarman]

I'd probably mash a little lower, IMO. 148-152 will keep the body where you want it. Everything else looks good I think. Curious to see how it turns out compared to your previous batch(es).

 

[Willglenn]

I've brewed a few Faux Psuedo Sue's, I'm of the opinion that it is brewed more like a NEIPA simple grain bill, likely Pilsner malt and some wheat, no boil hop additions just a pile of Citra hops at the end of the boil held at 180 degrees for around 20 minutes and then dry hopped in the fermentor when the fermentation is winding down. Decorah is an hours drive from where I live, been to Toppling Goliath a few times, so that makes me an expert. LOL just kidding.

 

[tswest11]

We just started getting TG beers here and I figured I’d take a stab at a clone. Followed (sort of)the recipe linked on 534.

I used London Ale III.

Came out amazing. Hopefully I can get a can of the real stuff to compare before mine is kicked, which won’t take long. Thanks for all the inputs on this thread. Definitely going to try a Mosaic and/or Galaxy version as well.

/cheers!

 

[jturman35]

I have high hopes for this batch! I ended up dry hopping 2oz at Day 2, 2oz Day 11, racked on day 14. Added 2oz keg hops! What kind of FG are you guys getting? This batch ended up at 1.020.

 

[Jarrod Mann]

Brewed this recipe on 10/15/19. I'd like to get some feed back on ways to improved. Taste turned out ok bu color was little off. It turned out a little bit of a darker yellow than Pseudo Sue from TG. I'd like to get it a little more of a bright yellow if possible.

2 row 5lbs 9oz
Golden Promise 6 lbs
Flaked Oats 0.5 lbs
Flaked Wheat 0.5lbs
Honey Malt 0.25 lbs

Mashed with 3.5 gallons @~152degrees (mash temp may have dropped to 145, added hot water to bring back to 152) for 60 mins
Sparged with 4 gallons @170degrees
60 min boil
FWH 0.5oz warrior hops
3 oz citra hops at flame out
3oz citra hops whirlpool when temps drops to 178 degrees
OG 1.06, wyeast 1272 yeast
Dry hop with 4oz citra on day 4
Dry hop with 3.7oz citra on day10
bottled on day 15, FG 1.012

thanks for any advice and thanks for all the info provided on this thread.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Probably just a question of minimising oxidation, but I guess you could try an extra pale base malt.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Did you purge with CO2 after the dry hops? What's your process for bottling? Looks like oxidation although you never really can tell just from a picture.

 

[Jarrod Mann]

I did not purge with CO2 after the dry hops. I don't have a set up that advanced. Oxidation would make sense because I had some trouble cooling the wort and then transferring the wort to the carboy and then bottles. I bottle with an auto syphon.

 

[jturman35]

Brewed this recipe on 10/15/19. I'd like to get some feed back on ways to improved. Taste turned out ok bu color was little off. It turned out a little bit of a darker yellow than Pseudo Sue from TG. I'd like to get it a little more of a bright yellow if possible.

2 row 5lbs 9oz
Golden Promise 6 lbs
Flaked Oats 0.5 lbs
Flaked Wheat 0.5lbs
Honey Malt 0.25 lbs

Mashed with 3.5 gallons @~152degrees (mash temp may have dropped to 145, added hot water to bring back to 152) for 60 mins
Sparged with 4 gallons @170degrees
60 min boil
FWH 0.5oz warrior hops
3 oz citra hops at flame out
3oz citra hops whirlpool when temps drops to 178 degrees
OG 1.06, wyeast 1272 yeast
Dry hop with 4oz citra on day 4
Dry hop with 3.7oz citra on day10
bottled on day 15, FG 1.012

thanks for any advice and thanks for all the info provided on this thread.

Lighting and the glass size plays a big part in the color. In the pic you posted it looks overcast compared to the hydro sample I posted above. Mine looks more muted in darker lighting almost identical to yours.