Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

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Adaman05

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Had this on tap a few weeks ago at Dexter's Pub in Madison and it was amazing. Liked it more than Zombie Dust, which it is currently always getting compared to. I looked around and haven't seen a thread on how to clone this, so I thought I'd start one up. What I know of it:

1) All citra hops
2) Golden amber appearance
3) 5.8% ABV
4) 50 IBUs

It's not really bitter at all but is just super chalked full of citra flavor. For that reason, I think a good starting point for the hop schedule would be a FWH, and then hopburst additions at 15, 10, 5, 1, a la SkeezerPleezer's Zombie Dust clone: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/3-floyds-zombie-dust-attempt-help-info-requested-245456/

I think a massive hopstand/whirlpool is also necessary, and a big dry hop. Thoughts?

I'm guessing a neutral yeast like 1056 or s-05 would do the trick. Any idea on the malt bill? I've emailed the brewery but haven't heard back. Anbody who was lucky enough to get a bottle of it able to spare 4 oz and degass it so we can figure out the FG? Let's clone this sucker!
 
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Adaman05

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Well, I guess I'll be taking a stab at this in the next few weeks. I'm shooting from the hip as I have no knowledge of their malt bill or yeast, but here is what I came up with.

Batch size: 5.5 gal
SG: 1.056
FG: 1.012

Two-row (91.2%)
Crystal - 20L (6.1%)
White wheat - (2.6%)

1 oz Citra (14.1%) - FWH
2.25 oz Citra (14.1%) - 5 min
4.75 oz Citra (14.1%) - 30 minute hop stand at 180F
4 oz Citra (14.1%) - Dry hop 8 days in two stages

S-05 yeast
 

LoneTreeFarms

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Subbed. I'd like to see a clone of most of their brews. They have an Irish red that's awesome!!
 

Braufessor

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I have been thinking about trying this as well.... it is my favorite beer of theirs (along with golden nugget and a porter they have not brewed in over a year). I get to drink it fresh from the source every week or two:)

I think you are probably in the ballpark, I don't think it is an overly complex beer in regard to ingredients. Other possible options maybe - golden promise for base, something like 002 or 007 for yeast.

I could probably take my refractometer in this weekend and test my pint:)
 

LoneTreeFarms

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I get to drink it fresh from the source every week or two:)
definitely jealous. but occasionally just chatting up one of the brewers could get us an inside scoop as far as the recipe. mention to them that there's a few different threads started on here, and maybe they'll throw us a bone and post something on here for us. one could hope right?
 

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SG: 1.056
FG: 1.012

Two-row (91.2%)
Crystal - 20L (6.1%)
White wheat - (2.6%)

1 oz Citra (14.1%) - FWH
2.25 oz Citra (14.1%) - 5 min
4.75 oz Citra (14.1%) - 30 minute hop stand at 180F
4 oz Citra (14.1%) - Dry hop 8 days in two stages

S-05 yeast
__________________


I think that's a good place to start. I wonder if they use Golden promise like they do in their Golden Nugget IPA or maybe some other Thomas Fawcett product. I'm not sure I'd use 6% caramel, but that's just splitting hairs. I would also consider some corn sugar, but once you get the FG you'll have a better idea I guess.

Also, I would strongly consider mash hops. Leaf.

I've gone through about a case of these bombers in the last 6 or so weeks so I feel like an expert lol.
 
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Adaman05

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SG: 1.056
FG: 1.012

Two-row (91.2%)
Crystal - 20L (6.1%)
White wheat - (2.6%)

1 oz Citra (14.1%) - FWH
2.25 oz Citra (14.1%) - 5 min
4.75 oz Citra (14.1%) - 30 minute hop stand at 180F
4 oz Citra (14.1%) - Dry hop 8 days in two stages

S-05 yeast
__________________


I think that's a good place to start. I wonder if they use Golden promise like they do in their Golden Nugget IPA or maybe some other Thomas Fawcett product. I'm not sure I'd use 6% caramel, but that's just splitting hairs. I would also consider some corn sugar, but once you get the FG you'll have a better idea I guess.

Also, I would strongly consider mash hops. Leaf.

I've gone through about a case of these bombers in the last 6 or so weeks so I feel like an expert lol.
Thanks for the tips! I'm going to give it a go this weekend and will add a mash hop and small dextrose addition in leue of some crystal.
 

Herky21

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Oh I didn't mean no caramel. I just meant less, but I could be wrong - 6 % might be right. It does have some color and sweetness and it's 5.8% so I think some caramel would be in there.
 
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Adaman05

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Oh I didn't mean no caramel. I just meant less, but I could be wrong - 6 % might be right. It does have some color and sweetness and it's 5.8% so I think some caramel would be in there.
Oh I'm not taking it all out, just dialing back a smidge :)
 
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Adaman05

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Going to the lhbs today to grab the stuff. What's the verdict- s04 or s05? I prefer dry yeast.
 

Braufessor

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I think that's a good place to start. I wonder if they use Golden promise like they do in their Golden Nugget IPA .......

Also, I would strongly consider mash hops. Leaf.
my thoughts exactly in regard to the Golden Promise.

I like the idea of the mash hops too..... no idea if they do that or not, but it is a possible way of getting more hops in, without filling your wort up with leaf hops. I have not tried this - any advice?

I will go do some "recon" this weekend and see what I can find.
 

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use 1968 wyeast. i had my fair attemps at the ZD clone, the last batch i made came out closer to psudosue. heres why i think it did. my OG was 1.056 cause i had poor eff. i also did a whirlpool of citra at 140 degrees (1oz)

my mash temp was 153

FG was 1.017

i just happen to get a few bottles of psudosue a few weeks after i brewed the ZD clone, it was a damn close comparison.

a few other things i changed was the color, mine came out to about 7.8-8 srm..

i would say the ZD clone is a good base recipie for this, just lower the base malt and add some more finishing citra hops.. and use 1968 yeast...or 04
 
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Adaman05

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Picked up my grain today, and I'm receiving my shipment of 1.5 lbs of Citra tomorrow (doing an 11 gal batch). I went with Golden Promise based on the advice earlier in the thread (it's nice to have a little inside info!). After a decent amount of research, I decided against a mash hop and to use the 2 oz of hops designated for that later in the hopstand.

I've got a massive amount of hops designated for the hopstand, but I've read a lot of conflicting amounts of the temperature range to throw them in. Some people throw them in right at flame out, others chill to around 170 and try to hold that, others do 150, and others have done a two-stage hopstand with a combination. Thoughts?

What I remember from pseudoSue is massive amount of late flavor on the tongue, minimal bitterness, and a HUGE nose. Will a schedule of a FWH, big 5 minute addition, massive hopstand, and a big dry hop get me there?
 

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Let us know what your final recipe looks like and how it came out. I think I'm going to give it a go soon, too. Love me some Sue!
 

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use 1968 wyeast.

a few other things i changed was the color, mine came out to about 7.8-8 srm..

i would say the ZD clone is a good base recipie for this, just lower the base malt and add some more finishing citra hops.. and use 1968 yeast...or 04
Why English yeast? Toppling Goliath pseudosue doesn't have much for yeast characteristics. Zombie dust is noticeably less dry and maltier I think. Does it fit?
 

poislb

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Why English yeast? Toppling Goliath pseudosue doesn't have much for yeast characteristics. Zombie dust is noticeably less dry and maltier I think. Does it fit?
I usr 1968 for just about all my pales and ipas, its a super clean strain, highly flocculant and gives a nice fruity character to the beer...
 

Gear101

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anyone just think about emailing the brewery, [email protected]. Sometimes they will help out or at least point you in the right direction.
 
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Adaman05

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Why English yeast? Toppling Goliath pseudosue doesn't have much for yeast characteristics. Zombie dust is noticeably less dry and maltier I think. Does it fit?
Since I'm doing 11 gallons, I'll try 04 in one and 05 in another carboy.
 

Herky21

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I usr 1968 for just about all my pales and ipas, its a super clean strain, highly flocculant and gives a nice fruity character to the beer...
Huh. Well I guess it works for 2 hearted and many others. I'd just worry about attenuation and about those fruity characteristics.


I guess the plan to try both will be helpful!
 

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A good many breweries use a yeast like 002 or 007 (enlgish yeasts) for their american IPA's, pale ales, etc. It is a pretty common "house yeast". If you ferment at moderate temperatures - they are pretty clean and you don't get really any english character from it.

I think doing one carboy of each is a great idea and is the best way to test which yeast seems to get you the closest.
 
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Adaman05

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A good many breweries use a yeast like 002 or 007 (enlgish yeasts) for their american IPA's, pale ales, etc. It is a pretty common "house yeast". If you ferment at moderate temperatures - they are pretty clean and you don't get really any english character from it.

I think doing one carboy of each is a great idea and is the best way to test which yeast seems to get you the closest.
If somebody could send/trade me a bottle it would be helpful ;)
 

Herky21

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okay i gotta ask herky, what's the drunken donut in secondary?
haha. Well I took all of the principles one would apply to an RIS and applied it to a brown ale. It's a 10.5 abv. Brown Ale fermented with Belgian Ardennes yeast and it has like 10 different malts in it as you would think an RIS would.

It tastes incredibly bready, biscuity, and pastry like so I dubbed it a donut ale. The Drunken part is from the 4 used barrel whiskey staves and I guess from the 10.5 abv haha. Been aging for 7 months.
 

Gear101

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Pseudosue is never on the shelf. Sells out from behind the counter on the day its delivered.
Just found that out, the hard way. :( Think El Bait Shop still might have it on tap, that is where I had it before. Talked to Mark at Beer Crazy, he thinks after they explains their new bottle line, some might be coming his way.

Did get some tallgrass, To Ol, and Evil Twin. Cheers

Edit just called Bait Shop, the have four of five on tap but no Sue for another week, no growlers.
 

Herky21

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Just found that out, the hard way. :( Think El Bait Shop still might have it on tap, that is where I had it before. Talked to Mark at Beer Crazy, he thinks after they explains their new bottle line, some might be coming his way.

Did get some tallgrass, To Ol, and Evil Twin. Cheers

Edit just called Bait Shop, the have four of five on tap but no Sue for another week, no growlers.
Haha. Hard lesson to take in. Wish it was more available. In Des Moines, TG is available at El Bait, the Library Cafe, Zombie Burger, and the Kegstand. Glad you got some good beers to make up for it!
 
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Adaman05

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Brewed up my first attempt yesterday. I did:

11 gallons

Golden Promise (92%)
Crystal - 20L (3.5%)
White Wheat (2.7%)
Dextrose (1.8%)

2 oz Citra - FWH
4.5 oz Citra - 5 min
11.5 oz Citra - 45 minute hopstand added when wort cooled to 180F.

Overshot my mash temperature, was aiming for 152 and hit 153/154. I overcompensated while pre-heating the MLT due to the frigid Wisconsin weather.

OG came in right as planned at 1.056. I hit both carboys with 60 seconds of 02 and pitched 04 in one and 05 in another. Both are fermenting away at 64F.

I'll give it a couple weeks, then do a two-stage dry hop of 4 ounces in each carboy. Half of this batch will be kegged, and the other half will be bottled for a birthday party. Reports to follow!
 

Gear101

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So I emailed them the other day, this is what I got back. I copied and paste Adams clone and sent it to them, directing them to this thread. I did put the S-05 and wrote a note saying that I might get some yeast out of one of their bottles.
................


Good call on harvesting some yeast, as we usually leave plenty in our beer and as you know it is never filtered or pasteurized . S-05 however would be an excellent choice (and better IMO) and you will not risk the little nasty’s that live in a lot of draft facets. That is a great recipe you have, and I would like to try it myself!

Although we are pretty open on most of our ingredients and hops used in our beers, we guard the pseudoSue pretty closely!

Good luck brewing and cheers!

Clark Lewey

TG Chief
.......

I guess I don't blame them, if I worked hard to create a beer that was going over good, I might not help out. But it was nice of him to get back to me.

Cheers
 

LoneTreeFarms

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That's great that he took the time to email you back! makes you wonder what recipes he would be willing to share with us faithful followers.
 
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Adaman05

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So I emailed them the other day, this is what I got back. I copied and paste Adams clone and sent it to them, directing them to this thread. I did put the S-05 and wrote a note saying that I might get some yeast out of one of their bottles.
................


Good call on harvesting some yeast, as we usually leave plenty in our beer and as you know it is never filtered or pasteurized . S-05 however would be an excellent choice (and better IMO) and you will not risk the little nasty’s that live in a lot of draft facets. That is a great recipe you have, and I would like to try it myself!

Although we are pretty open on most of our ingredients and hops used in our beers, we guard the pseudoSue pretty closely!

Good luck brewing and cheers!

Clark Lewey

TG Chief
.......

I guess I don't blame them, if I worked hard to create a beer that was going over good, I might not help out. But it was nice of him to get back to me.

Cheers
Thanks for sharing! Funny that you got a response and I didn't. Good to hear about the 05. I will take a hydro sample in a few days. Hoping to hit 1.012 to get 5.8%. Drinking my latest zombie dust clone and I added a hopstand to it - tastes more similar to pseudosue than to zombie dust, but a touch too sweet, so I think 05 or 1056 is the route to take.
 

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Brewed up my first attempt yesterday. I did:

11 gallons

Golden Promise (92%)
Crystal - 20L (3.5%)
White Wheat (2.7%)
Dextrose (1.8%)

2 oz Citra - FWH
4.5 oz Citra - 5 min
11.5 oz Citra - 45 minute hopstand added when wort cooled to 180F.

Overshot my mash temperature, was aiming for 152 and hit 153/154. I overcompensated while pre-heating the MLT due to the frigid Wisconsin weather.

OG came in right as planned at 1.056. I hit both carboys with 60 seconds of 02 and pitched 04 in one and 05 in another. Both are fermenting away at 64F.

I'll give it a couple weeks, then do a two-stage dry hop of 4 ounces in each carboy. Half of this batch will be kegged, and the other half will be bottled for a birthday party. Reports to follow!
12OZ HOP STAND!?!?!

Holy hops batman!....and i thought my 6oz heady hopstand was alot.

Please let us know how this comes out.
Im positive that your in for a treat with that much citra!!
 
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Adaman05

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12OZ HOP STAND!?!?!

Holy hops batman!....and i thought my 6oz heady hopstand was alot.

Please let us know how this comes out.
Im positive that your in for a treat with that much citra!!
11 gallon batch :)
 
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Adaman05

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8 days after brew day. S-05 carboy down to 1.010, s-04 to 1.011 and much clearer. At this point, I preferred the fruitiness of the 04. I will give it a few days before I dry hop each carboy with 4 ounces. I might skip the 2 stage dry hop and do it all at once.
 

Johnnyhitch1

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11 gallon batch :)
That makes more sense!

8 days after brew day. S-05 carboy down to 1.010, s-04 to 1.011 and much clearer. At this point, I preferred the fruitiness of the 04. I will give it a few days before I dry hop each carboy with 4 ounces. I might skip the 2 stage dry hop and do it all at once.
IMO theres only so much hop oil a beer can pull away from the hops...surface area to blah blah im not sure but after doing my first split dry hop i will never single charge dryhop again. The aroma that came off after the first addition was great, second...you can smell from across the room.

Take the time and do the staggered additions. It wll put the beer into the next level IMO.
Also i would think s-04 is what they use and what would do better with this type of brew. Interesting to see the head brewer point you towards a "clean" yeast.

Cant wait for pics and tasting notes. This has to be brewed soon!!
 

dbrulet

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Drinking a bottle of Sue now and glad found this thread. It's a bit hazy and also has a fairly thick mouthfeel for this style. Soooo good and juicy. Can't wait to try out this recipe!
 
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