Three Cider Experiment

[jnesselrode]

Oh, and looking back at things I see I underprimed based on the recipe I was working from, dang it! It was supposed to be 3 tablespoons, not teaspoons. Anyhoo -- any feedback appreciated.

 

[Shotgunwilly]

Oh, and looking back at things I see I underprimed based on the recipe I was working from, dang it! It was supposed to be 3 tablespoons, not teaspoons. Anyhoo -- any feedback appreciated.

who has not mixed up those to measurements to many times to count?

 

[jnesselrode]

who has not mixed up those to measurements to many times to count?

And, then there's the possibility I did use tablespoons but wrote down teaspoons.

 

[Chalkyt]

Re your question from last Saturday. Hmm... teaspoons or tablespoons?

I generally work on two gravity points of fermentation resulting in one volume of C02. This isn't terribly precise, but for me it doesn't matter if my cider has 2 or 2.5 volumes of carbonation. This sort of fizz is good enough for me.

If you want some background to this, Alex Simmens of Llanblethian Orchards in Wales has written an excellent "Bottle Conditioned Cider Guide" which goes through the relevant arithmetic. A Google search should find it.

So back to the question. Using this approach, a gallon of cider (say 4 litres) at SG1.000 with 3 teaspoons of sugar (say 15 grams at 5 grams per teaspoon) added will have about 4g/L of added sugar for a SG of 1.0025, i.e. when the sugar is fermented it should end up a little flat with a slight fizz at one and a bit volumes of C02.

A gallon at 1.002 should have about 3g/L of sugar left, plus the 3 teaspoons of added sugar so should end up at 7g/L of sugar for a SG of around 1.004, which ferments into a nice fizz of two or a bit more volumes of C02. i.e no potential bottle bomb issues here.

On the other hand, 3 tablespoons of sugar is around 12 g/L or SG 1.007 so when added to the SG1.000 you could have up to 4 volumes of C02 which IME is getting into volcano territory. (I currently have a batch in crown capped bottles which I pasteurised too late and is at 4 volumes... it needs about 5 minutes with the crown cap just slightly released to become drinkable otherwise cider sprays all over the place!).

Adding 3 tablespoons of sugar to the SG1.002 cider could get you up towards 7 or 8 volumes of C02 if it ferments completely dry (i.e. no pasteurising), which is definitely "worry" country if the bottles aren't strong enough. How long has it been carbonating? Might be time to open a bottle to see what is going on.

Yes, these little issues make cidermaking an adventure!

Edit: I probably should have mentioned that sections 2 and 3 of Alex's guide are the most relevant to this issue although the rest is also valuable and includes "how to do it" stuff.

 

[jnesselrode]

Re your question from last Saturday. Hmm... teaspoons or tablespoons?

I generally work on two gravity points of fermentation resulting in one volume of C02. This isn't terribly precise, but for me it doesn't matter if my cider has 2 or 2.5 volumes of carbonation. This sort of fizz is good enough for me.

If you want some background to this, Alex Simmens of Llanblethian Orchards in Wales has written an excellent "Bottle Conditioned Cider Guide" which goes through the relevant arithmetic. A Google search should find it.

So back to the question. Using this approach, a gallon of cider (say 4 litres) at SG1.000 with 3 teaspoons of sugar (say 15 grams at 5 grams per teaspoon) added will have about 4g/L of added sugar for a SG of 1.0025, i.e. when the sugar is fermented it should end up a little flat with a slight fizz at one and a bit volumes of C02.

A gallon at 1.002 should have about 3g/L of sugar left, plus the 3 teaspoons of added sugar so should end up at 7g/L of sugar for a SG of around 1.004, which ferments into a nice fizz of two or a bit more volumes of C02. i.e no potential bottle bomb issues here.

On the other hand, 3 tablespoons of sugar is around 12 g/L or SG 1.007 so when added to the SG1.000 you could have up to 4 volumes of C02 which IME is getting into volcano territory. (I currently have a batch in crown capped bottles which I pasteurised too late and is at 4 volumes... it needs about 5 minutes with the crown cap just slightly released to become drinkable otherwise cider sprays all over the place!).

Adding 3 tablespoons of sugar to the SG1.002 cider could get you up towards 7 or 8 volumes of C02 if it ferments completely dry (i.e. no pasteurising), which is definitely "worry" country if the bottles aren't strong enough. How long has it been carbonating? Might be time to open a bottle to see what is going on.

Yes, these little issues make cidermaking an adventure!

Edit: I probably should have mentioned that sections 2 and 3 of Alex's guide are the most relevant to this issue although the rest is also valuable and includes "how to do it" stuff.

Thanks for the detailed reply, @Chalkyt !

As you described, mine are essentially flat with a little pssft when you open the bottle. Final gravities of my three ciders before, priming sugar, were 1.000, 1.000 and 1.002. I may be a little off on my SGs.

My source for the 3 tablespoons per gallon is the book Modern Ciders. I guess I'm glad I didn't do that much if it would have created problems, but since I pasteurized I might have staved off disaster.

I've got three identical one-gallon batches going right now, all with Safale S-04, which was our favorite. My intention is to do three different priming/sweetening levels. Firstly, I want to fix the carbonation issue, then I want to have some variability in the final sweetness. I haven't worked out the final plan yet, but having this info is very helpful as I plan.

 

[jnesselrode]

Trying to get to sugar grams per gallon for 2.5 volumes CO2.

Hoping to have my math checked after working through the formulas here.

1 gallon = 3.78 liters
Density CO2 = 1.977 grams/L
CO2 grams = 2.5 CO2 vol x (1.977 * 3.78 L) = 18.68 grams CO2 per gallon
Sugar grams = CO2 grams * 2.128
18.68 * 2.128 = 39.75 grams sugar per gallon (or 10.52 g/L)

So assuming 1.000 final SG, addition of ~ 40 grams sugar to a gallon batch should ferment back down to ~ 1.000 and have 2.5 vols CO2.

SG increase = ((39.75/3.8)/2.7) = 3.87 * 0.001 = 0.0038

 

[Miraculix]

Trying to get to sugar grams per gallon for 2.5 volumes CO2.

Hoping to have my math checked after working through the formulas here.

1 gallon = 3.78 liters
Density CO2 = 1.977 grams/L
CO2 grams = 2.5 CO2 vol x (1.977 * 3.78 L) = 18.68 grams CO2 per gallon
Sugar grams = CO2 grams * 2.128
18.68 * 2.128 = 39.75 grams sugar per gallon (or 10.52 g/L)

So assuming 1.000 final SG, addition of ~ 40 grams sugar to a gallon batch should ferment back down to ~ 1.000 and have 2.5 vols CO2.

SG increase = ((39.75/3.8)/2.7) = 3.87 * 0.001 = 0.0038

I just use the brewers friend priming sugar calculator, which never failed me. Just google it, it's free!

 

[jnesselrode]

I just use the brewers friend priming sugar calculator, which never failed me. Just google it, it's free!

Thanks! Using that for 1 gallon, 2.5 volumes I get 0.9 ounces or 25.5 grams. Pretty different than my 39.75 grams. Hopefully Professor @Chalkyt can help. I've got a spreadsheet where I do various calcs/recipes and would like to drop this in there if possible.

 

[doublejef]

I don't use fancy calculation tool for that, just use metric system and experience.

12g/l : High Champagne carbonation level (for heavy "Champenoise" bottle only with cork stopper + crown)
8g/l-10g/l : High to very high carbonated beer level (Belgian strong beer)
7g/l : classic beer carbonation level (Lager, IPA,...)
5g/l : low carbonation level (stout, english Ale,...)
<5g/l : fizzy beverage

Pick the number you want and multiply it by 3.78 and you have your gram/gallon target.

Of course this works only if your juice if fully fermented before you add the suger.

 

[Chalkyt]

Sorry, I wrote the following bit (in italics) yesterday in response your 5.41 post. I wandered off to do something and obviously didn't get back to the computer to post it. Found it still sitting on the screen today (late afternoon)... it might address some of your concerns. In particular I mentioned the on-line calculator discrepancy, because I have found the same issue. Maybe someone can explain it because the Alex Simmens approach looks pretty bullet-proof to me, and I find it works (especially two gravity points per volume of CO2).

You might also like to google Andrew Lea's Carbonation Table which gives bottle pressure for different volumes of C02 for different temperatures (a good guide for potential volcanos or bottle bombs when pasteurising).

Meanwhile your arithmetic looks O.K. to me. Something that I do that is slightly different is to use the density of C02 at 15C which is 1.87g/L (because we don't usually work at 0C). Also, there is an assumption that 2.7 grams of sugar raises the SG by 0.001, whereas the actual amount according to Alex can be between 2.4 and 3.0. The 2.7 is the mean but in reality can be something else according to the sugar used.

The reason for raising these pernickety points is to highlight not to get caught with what is called "the sanctity of numbers", which means that just because something calculates to several decimal places, that doesn't mean it is right or accurate. Remember GIGO.

All these calculations really are just approximations to get us in the ball-park so we can achieve practical results.

Good luck with your sweetness/carbonation trials.

There are lots of “rules of thumb” for carbonating. They are all useful and seem to end up with the same result. I find that the difficulty comes with needing to know how much sugar is in the cider after priming. For example, if you bottle before full fermentation or prime with juice, “home made” AJC, bought AJC or some other juice, the only measure that you really have is SG.

Hence, for priming I use the Proulx & Nichols p47 table for SG vs fermentable sugar (not “total sugar” given in some sources, which includes non-fermentable sugars and other substances that affect the SG).

The calculations in Alex Simmens guide, say 4.04g of sugar per litre ferments into 1 volume of C02 at 15C, which is around the temperature that most of us work at. So, 2.5 volumes of C02 requires 10.1 grams of sugar per litre.

Surprise, surprise, this lines up with Andrew Lea’s guide of "10g of dry sugar per litre or a flat teaspoon per pint, which is roughly equivalent to 5 degrees of SG".

In your case 3 tblsp per gallon is 38grams of sugar per 3.8 litres, or 10g/L.

Given that US teaspoons are a different size to UK teaspoons, and the relevant gallons being different, I find that working in ounces, pints, etc, etc scrambles my brain… it is a bit like measuring speed in “furlongs per fortnight”. So for me, SG is the easiest way to prime for carbonation and sweetness, allowing 2+ gravity points per volume of C02 plus whatever I want for sweetness.

Generally, for a slightly sweet, off-dry cider (3 -7 g/L of sugar or ¼ - ½ tsp of sugar in a cup of coffee), I will bottle somewhere between SG 1.008 and 1.012 then pasteurise after 2 to 2.5 volumes of C02 have developed (i.e. firm with a soda bottle squeeze test or 1.3 to 1.8 bar/20 to 30 psi bottle pressure).

None of this is terribly precise but it works, and I end up with cider in the sweetness and carbonation range that I am after. I do note that these figures differ from various on-line beer carbonation calculators and don’t really know why. Perhaps someone can enlighten us.

I hope you find this useful when working out how much sugar (or SG) you need for your trials.

Keep us posted.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks! Using that for 1 gallon, 2.5 volumes I get 0.9 ounces or 25.5 grams. Pretty different than my 39.75 grams. Hopefully Professor @Chalkyt can help. I've got a spreadsheet where I do various calcs/recipes and would like to drop this in there if possible.

All I can say is that the calculator never failed me in years and that the following quote also matches my experiences. Only thing I'd slightly lower would be the English ale, Which I would put in the 1.5 to 2.5 g/l range, while preferring 2.0g/l.

I don't use fancy calculation tool for that, just use metric system and experience.

12g/l : High Champagne carbonation level (for heavy "Champenoise" bottle only with cork stopper + crown)
8g/l-10g/l : High to very high carbonated beer level (Belgian strong beer)
7g/l : classic beer carbonation level (Lager, IPA,...)
5g/l : low carbonation level (stout, english Ale,...)
<5g/l : fizzy beverage

Pick the number you want and multiply it by 3.78 and you have your gram/gallon target.

Of course this works only if your juice if fully fermented before you add the suger.

 

[Chalkyt]

Here is a bit of light bedtime reading for you…

Just for a bit of entertainment (mine and yours) on a cold and wintery day and following the earlier posts on priming for volumes CO2, I did a bit of research through the usual sources (Jolicoeur, Lea and of course Dr Google).

I was looking into why the difference between the online beer calculators which suggest a bit over 6g of sugar per litre for 2.5 volumes of CO2 and the cider “rule of thumb” of 10g of sugar per litre for 2.5 volumes of CO2.

I had used various online calculators a few times in the past and the resulting carbonation was less than I expected, so I figure it might be worthwhile sharing what I have found out.

The issue of how much sugar for carbonation has been debated in many places including HBT, in particular Jolicoeur and Lea went into some detail on cider.org back in 2011.

So, the answer is: The online calculators assume that the beverage (beer) already has some residual CO2 resulting from fermentation and therefore they only calculate the sugar required to bring the CO2 (residual plus priming) up to the required CO2 volumes.

The Cider “rule of thumb” of 10g/L of sugar for 2.5 volumes of CO2 as recommended by Andrew Lea, comes from calculating the amount of CO2 generated when sugar is fermented as outlined in Alex Simmens’ Carbonation Guide. This is what is needed for the actual carbonation fizz.

For example, the Brewers Friend Calculator (and others) assumes that after fermentation 0.86 volumes of CO2 is already in solution. So it recommends 6.6 g/L of priming sugar for 2.5 volumes of CO2. The 6.6g will produce 1.6 volumes of CO2 and bring the total up to about 2.5 volumes. But only 1.6 volumes is fizz.

The online calculators are generally based on formulas from Dr Michael Hall’s “Brew by the Numbers” published in Zymurgy, Summer 1995. These formulas for both residual and primed carbonation have come from his multiple regression analysis of a range of data from beer (but not cider). At the time, Michael was a computational physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory and a member of the Atom Mashers brewing club… hmm, sounds like they might have brewed some interesting beverages!

However, the question is, how much fizz do you want when you open the bottle? Around one volume of residual CO2 is effectively flat cider, i.e. saturation at atmospheric pressure. As outlined above, the fizz comes from carbonation on top of this. That is why I work with a test bottle fitted with a pressure gauge (i.e. a fancy version of the soda bottle squeeze test) to determine when the carbonation is right.

Backing up this view, following are some extracts from the Lea and Jolicoeur discussion in cider.org about carbonation and the effect of airspace in a bottle.

“Also you need to subtract 1 bar for normal atmospheric
pressure at the end, because what you actually measure in a soft drink
is the pressure over 1 bar - i.e. gauge pressure, not absolute”.

“The 1 atmosphere offset consideration is that Henry's Law deals in
absolutes. Hence you must saturate your cider with CO2 to get up to the
1 atm of normal atmospheric pressure that we all live under. Only after
that will there be 'carbonation'. The gauge pressure is the bottle
pressure in excess of the 1 atmosphere required for saturation that
takes place without carbonation being apparent.”

“So, would it make more sense to say:
If there is no air in the bottle, gage pressure in the bottle would
be pressure computed from Henry's law minus 1 atm
If there is air, then we would substract only about 0.8 atm from the
Henry's law computed pressure.”​

As well, there are other factors that come into play such as temperature at bottling time, altitude (i.e. atmospheric pressure… I am up at 1000 metres in the mountains, so my bottling atmosphere is around 0.9 bar, not the 1.0 bar at sea level so my cider will be less fizzy down at the coast), etc, etc.

However, in a practical sense we sometimes just want to make a carbonated cider. So, without getting too hung up on biochemical reactions and maths, both approaches work if we understand how the end result is achieved and are aware to prime for the carbonation wanted on top of the residual CO2 in solution.

Enjoy the bedtime reading. It will probably put you to sleep.

Cheers!

 

[jnesselrode]

Interesting stuff, @Chalkyt!

So I’m thinking a cider that has been allowed to ferment and settle out for some time may have less dissolved CO2 than a beer that is bottled sooner?

With a simple 10 grams per liter approach, that’s 37.8 grams per gallon. Volume wise that’s right around 3 tablespoons, like Modern Ciders book suggests.

 

[Chalkyt]

Yes, you might be right.

I notice that in the Pressure Calculation part of CJ's book he refers to 0.5 atm of air in a bottle dissolving into the cider during bottling and indicates that this also comes into play as far as pressure in the bottle is concerned. The discussion between CJ and AL on this topic that I mentioned above, goes into some detail but I figured that for us simple craft cidermakers it was getting a bit too complex. Somewhere I did see a suggestion that residual CO2 may decline while cider is maturing but couldn't find any data on it. Maybe these issues are important for commercial producers.

The other thing that I was a bit puzzled by but didn't pursue, is why the online calculators don't seem to deal with the concept of priming carbonation on top of residual carbonation. After all, the 2.5 volumes online calculation really only appears to result in 1.6 volumes of fizz... pfft! (i.e. less than soft drink or beer that we buy which is supposedly at around 2.5 volumes). I don't know if beer carbonation behaves differently to cider (maybe it is a more complex biochemical process with other sugars involved) and I considered posing the question to our friends over the fence in the beer forum, but decided it was all too hard and I didn't really need to know as this is all supposed to be fun.

Anyhow, someone who is in both camps might be able to enlighten us further.

 

[jnesselrode]

Just a follow up on the three ciders I did in October 2023 at the beginning of this thread.

All three have improved greatly with age and seem to have kept improving over the last several months, though at a slower rate. S04 and CdB are still the favorites. Just cracked open a CdB and couldn't be happier!