Three Cider Experiment

[jnesselrode]

After asking questions here and reading up a bit, I decided I'd do an experiment in order to try for something like the more-flavorful ciders like we experienced in Ireland.

I'm not going to be able to start with apples, so I'm going with Louisburg Cider Mill (Kansas, USA) cider, which is probably a typical drinking cider found in the US. I have boosted the acid and tannin levels above where I have typically done in previous batches, and know I can adjust up after fermentation if needed. I didn't add any sugar, as I'm hoping to keep alcohol level lower and retain as much apple flavor as possible. I didn't do TA or pH -- I figure I'll check that afterwards, but I have a general idea where this cider will be based on previous batches.

Today I started 3 one-gallon batches, each with a different yeast strain: Cotes des Blancs, Nottingham and Safale S-04. Here's the starting info:
1 gallon Louisburg Cider Mill cider
½ teaspoon acid blend
½ teaspoon pectic enzyme
¼ teaspoon tannin
1 teaspoon yeast nutrient

 

[Lampy]

I look forward to seeing your results. I've only been making beers/cider for about 1.5 years and S04 has been one of my beer staples, but not for cider yet.

 

[jnesselrode]

Well, the first little interesting thing: I pitched yeast Monday 10/9 mid-afternoon. Since they are 1-gallon batches I only did half a pack for each. As of mid-day 10/11, the Safale S-04 is bubbling away like crazy. The Nottingham is pushing up but no bubbling yet. The Cote des Blancs isn't showing any activity yet. I'm not worried, I just think it's interesting.

I really feel pretty good about this small batch approach: exact same everything but the yeast. I'll have several bottles of each to assess, not one big batch that leaves me wondering what could have been. And, one gallons batches are so much easier to handle. I've gotten to where I dread dealing with a full 5+ gallon carboy or bucket.

 

[Chalkyt]

Yep, that pretty much follows my experience of a few years ago with a comparison of S04, AS2, and Cote des Blancs. After two days S04 was going well, AS2 had slight signs of bubbles and CdB had started but was slow. After 5 days the roles had changed, and they changed again as time went on. S04 was the first to settle down with AS2 generating the most foam and CdB the last to finish. As you say, "it's interesting"... keep posting what happens.

Looking back on my old notes I see that after two weeks the S04 had "stalled" at 1.020, AS2 was 1.002 and CdB was 1.003. I didn't realise it at the time, but this is consistent with my recent findings that S04 (and ale yeasts generally) can stall if they run out of nutrient. I am not sure if I added any DAP at the start, but I did add a small starter including DAP (which is 20% YAN nutrient) to the stalled S04 batch and it got going again.

 

[jnesselrode]

Things were slower than expected. I never did see the locks popping like I expected on two of them. So one week after pitching I opened them up, took specific gravity readings and was pleasantly surprised. Cotes des Blancs 0.998, Nottingham 1.003 and Safale S-04 1.000. Each had a unique smell. CdB was fruity/tart, Nott nondescript, S04 fruity. Transferred to gallon jugs and topped up with like cider with same acid and tannin adjustments.

Another interesting thing: each had a slightly different color.

 

[jnesselrode]

Another thing: Those 2-gallon fermentation buckets don't have a gasket, so I suspect the reason I wasn't seeing the locks pop is because it was just seeping out around the edges. My 6-gallon ones do have gaskets.

 

[madscientist451]

I‘m not sure if adding Acid blend was the right move. Would it be better to add it to taste after fermentation?

 

[jnesselrode]

I‘m not sure if adding Acid blend was the right move. Would it be better to add it to taste after fermentation?

Well my previous batches were kinda bland, so I boosted the acid (and tannin) up from previous levels based on recipes I read in Modern Ciders. Even after increasing, I’m at the lower end of what’s recommended. I tasted it and think it could go higher, but I’ll adjust afterward.

 

[jnesselrode]

This three simultaneous batch experiment keeps producing interesting things.

When I transferred to secondary all three jugs were still. After a couple days, the Cotes des Blancs, which went in at 0.998, started to bubble a little. Hmmm. Why not the other two? Then a few days later all three of them started to bubble fairly vigorously, which they're still doing this morning.

 

[Chalkyt]

One of the more useful things that I use is an acid titration kit to measure the acid level in juice/cider.

Although they are usually calibrated for wine (Tartaric Acid), the kits are also relatively easy to use for cider (Malic Acid). Both Jolicoeur (in his book) and Lea (on his website) have simplified methods that give TA results directly for cider (i.e. Malic Acid TA) and also use small amounts of the chemicals involved so the kits do more tests. The process simply involves measuring how much base (alkali) is needed to neutralise the acid in the cider (this occurs when the indicator changes colour), then doing some simple arithmetic.

The kits usually use a base of sodium hydroxide and phenolphthalein as an acid/alkali indicator, but I have found that common caustic soda aka sodium hydroxide and pool water indicators like phenyl red or bromo blue are adequate substitutes for the "official" chemicals for my purposes (a local winemaker put me on to this because he uses caustic soda from the hardware store).

Most "ordinary" juice has an acid level of around 3g/L but the usual target for cider is 5 -7 g/L which is often achieved by blending high acid "cider" apples. Unfortunately, I don't have this luxury (apart from one tree of Granny Smiths that are around 8-10g/L) so I usually add malic acid before fermentation if needed to bring the acid up to 5g/L (this also usually brings the pH down from around 4.0 to the more ideal 3.6). I then make a further adjustment before bottling based on both taste and/or measurement. Having the right acid level makes heaps of difference to the cider.

There is a lot of information on thebeveragepeople.com about acid, tannin, etc as well as other articles on making and improving cider. It is a website worth looking at and was brought to our attention by Maylar back in 2021.

 

[jnesselrode]

One of the more useful things that I use is an acid titration kit to measure the acid level in juice/cider.

Although they are usually calibrated for wine (Tartaric Acid), the kits are also relatively easy to use for cider (Malic Acid). Both Jolicoeur (in his book) and Lea (on his website) have simplified methods that give TA results directly for cider (i.e. Malic Acid TA) and also use small amounts of the chemicals involved so the kits do more tests. The process simply involves measuring how much base (alkali) is needed to neutralise the acid in the cider (this occurs when the indicator changes colour), then doing some simple arithmetic.

The kits usually use a base of sodium hydroxide and phenolphthalein as an acid/alkali indicator, but I have found that common caustic soda aka sodium hydroxide and pool water indicators like phenyl red or bromo blue are adequate substitutes for the "official" chemicals for my purposes (a local winemaker put me on to this because he uses caustic soda from the hardware store).

Most "ordinary" juice has an acid level of around 3g/L but the usual target for cider is 5 -7 g/L which is often achieved by blending high acid "cider" apples. Unfortunately, I don't have this luxury (apart from one tree of Granny Smiths that are around 8-10g/L) so I usually add malic acid before fermentation if needed to bring the acid up to 5g/L (this also usually brings the pH down from around 4.0 to the more ideal 3.6). I then make a further adjustment before bottling based on both taste and/or measurement. Having the right acid level makes heaps of difference to the cider.

There is a lot of information on thebeveragepeople.com about acid, tannin, etc as well as other articles on making and improving cider. It is a website worth looking at and was brought to our attention by Maylar back in 2021.

Thanks.
I’ve got a titration kit and plan to test things at the end and adjust. pH was 3.6-3.8 as it went into secondary, so I’m in the ballpark.

Meanwhile, all three continue to bubble away.

 

[jnesselrode]

This experiment continues to get more interesting to me! You can see in the picture the color differences between the three jugs. It's not a lighting thing, there are significant differences in color that I wasn't expecting.

And, the aromas are remarkably different. To you more seasoned cider makers out there, that may not be so surprising. I knew there would be differences -- that's why I started this thing. But, they are drastically different. I'll give them a sniff tonight and try to report here what I can. I will say the Nottingham has the most 'pleasant' aroma at this stage of things.

 

[tracer bullet]

Indeed, very interesting. I'll be curious to see final ABV's vs flavors and such. I was wanting to make some cider this year as well but it seems the local farms are done. I think my desire to do so is a few weeks too late.

 

[JoshuaWhite5522]

I have had similar experiences with color variations. I think it has to do with the amount to yeast in suspension, and how much sugar is still in the cider.

 

[jnesselrode]

Bottling day yesterday, but first I took some measurements: Cote des Blancs and Safale S-04 came in at 1.000. Nottingham slightly higher at 1.002. That's about what I expected given what I've read about these yeasts. pH came in at 3.8 on CdB and S04, and 3.6 on Nott. TA was about 0.5 on all three.

CdB was quite sharp on the tongue. Nott less tart to me, but surprisingly my wife thought it was sharper. This isn't the first time she and I have tasted things and had very different impressions, but that's usually 'I like this better' kind of stuff. S04 was least sharp of all and had the most fruitiness. This difference was a bit of a surprise to me given they all started out at the same acid level. We both liked S04 best.

I had been toying with adding in FCAJ, but decided against it. Instead, I added 20 grams of priming sugar to each gallon and then bottled. I did one test bottle. I plan to pasteurize when it's ready.

 

[jnesselrode]

I have had similar experiences with color variations. I think it has to do with the amount to yeast in suspension, and how much sugar is still in the cider.

For what it’s worth, that color difference persisted through about a month in secondary.

Honestly, the wide variations in flavor and the color differences are an eye opener for me.

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for keeping us up to date. I have mentioned elsewhere that my crop of apples next Autumn (about April) will be very poor due to this year's spring Antarctic breakout with -10c frosts and strong winds that blew blossoms off the trees and froze fruit that was just forming.

We are about the highest town in Australia except for the ski resorts so there isn't much between us and the South Pole... I think it is called "extreme gardening"!!!!

Consequently, I will need to buy-in some juice come "cider season". Fortunately, an orchard south of us in Victoria does single variety juices so I can end up with an appropriate blend. One of my favorite ciders from Tasmania is Willie Smith's Traditional, and the good people there actually list the apple types on their containers, so that will be my blending guide.

Anyhow, what you are trialing is similar to what I am planning. My go-to is usually S04. I am aware that there are a lot of people out there who swear by both Nottingham and CdeB which don't seem to be your favorites at this stage... SWMBO thinks that cider with S04 is too "Beery" (after all it is an ale yeast, as is Notty). I had pondered a batch with CdeB or perhaps 71B next Autumn when I can have a constant blend across several ciders, so I will be interested to see if your opinions change once you carbonate.

 

[jnesselrode]

Thanks for keeping us up to date. I have mentioned elsewhere that my crop of apples next Autumn (about April) will be very poor due to this year's spring Antarctic breakout with -10c frosts and strong winds that blew blossoms off the trees and froze fruit that was just forming.

We are about the highest town in Australia except for the ski resorts so there isn't much between us and the South Pole... I think it is called "extreme gardening"!!!!

Consequently, I will need to buy-in some juice come "cider season". Fortunately, an orchard south of us in Victoria does single variety juices so I can end up with an appropriate blend. One of my favorite ciders from Tasmania is Willie Smith's Traditional, and the good people there actually list the apple types on their containers, so that will be my blending guide.

Anyhow, what you are trialing is similar to what I am planning. My go-to is usually S04. I am aware that there are a lot of people out there who swear by both Nottingham and CdeB which don't seem to be your favorites at this stage... SWMBO thinks that cider with S04 is too "Beery" (after all it is an ale yeast, as is Notty). I had pondered a batch with CdeB or perhaps 71B next Autumn when I can have a constant blend across several ciders, so I will be interested to see if your opinions change once you carbonate.

Thanks for your comments and help along the way.

The flavor difference is really remarkable to me, especially with the S04. I wonder if I didn’t get a malolactic fermentation somehow because it was so less tart. But, I used pasteurized juice and even dosed with a Camden tablet before.

 

[jnesselrode]

Five days after bottling and the test bottle is firming up.

Looking at the bottles:
Cote des Blancs is somewhat cloudy
Nottingham is very clear
Safale S-04 is nearly clear

 

[jnesselrode]

Pasteurized today using sous vide. I settled on doing 155 for 10 minutes. I got the water up to 155 and inserted the bottles. That dropped temp down to about 135 and it took about 15 minutes to get it back to 155 where I held it for 10. My gut tells me that was more than enough, but I’m not sure on the math.

I would have liked to use a bigger pot with more water but this was the largest I had that would allow the sous vide to suspend at the right level.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

 

[Rish]

I have the same Anova and had the same issue with one of my pots. It finally hit me that I could use a piece of wire through the piece on the back of the device, attach to the handle and adjust (lower) the height that way.

 

[jnesselrode]

I have the same Anova and had the same issue with one of my pots. It finally hit me that I could use a piece of wire through the piece on the back of the device, attach to the handle and adjust (lower) the height that way.

Yep. I had the same thought after the fact. I’ve got some wire coat hangers just made for this! Thanks.

 

[Chalkyt]

Another long-winded reply!

I use a large plastic bucket that lets the bottles sit below the water surface. This way I can see any bubbles rising from poorly capped bottles (rarely happens!)

However, all is good… You will have generated more than enough pasteurisation units (PUs) with your process.

Very roughly 25 PUs will have been generated in your bottles while heating from 135F (57C), plus150 PUs while sitting at 155F (68C) and another 25 PUs while cooling down from 155F to 149F (60C).

In reality, it is now generally accepted that anything over 30 PUs is enough for cider, with 50 PUs as the conservative target.

In your case, the 10 minutes at 155F wasn’t really needed but it is a good “belt, braces, and safety pins” overkill, which you can back off from as you get more confidence in the process. I generally pull the bottles out once the target temperature is reached.

This next bit will make your head spin and eyes glaze over… but persevere. The general formula for calculating PUs is = t x10 raised to the power of ((T-Tref)/Z). Where t is the time of heat exposure in minutes, T is the temperature (degrees C) reached, Tref is the temperature at which pasteurisation starts (60C for beer and cider), and Z is the coefficient of thermal resistance of the organism being targeted.

That all sounds a bit messy, but fortunately del Veccio (a brewing scientist in the 1950’s) developed a simplified version using numbers that are specific to beer (and cider). The formula named after him is...

PU = t x 1.393^(T-60)… a bit of a mission with a calculator but quite straightforward with excel or something similar. i.e. use the formula t x POWER(1.393,T-60).

The reason for going through this gobbledegoock is that I use a spreadsheet where I record the time and temperature in the bottles during the pasteurisation process. The spreadsheet calculates the amount of PUs generated and displays a graph of accumulating PUs. Two slightly different versions of the spreadsheets for recent batches (September 2023 and April 2023) are attached below. In my case they also show the theoretical pressure in the bottles at each temperature.

Unfortunately, we can’t attach excel files to HBT posts so the attachments are pdf. I can PM the various formulae if anyone needs them, but they are quite easy to work out if you are familiar with excel.

There are two ways of capturing the data. The first method that I used was to start my phone stop-watch running and record the average temperature at each minute in a "monitoring" bottle of water in the pasteuriser. My current method is to record the elapsed time at each degree change in temperature (see a post by Bembel 11 May 2016).

Both methods produce similar results, but the second method was prompted by a countdown temperature probe that I found which beeps at every degree of temperature change, so I don’t have to keep an eye on the stopwatch. It simply makes life easier.

I hope you managed to read this far, and it helps.

Cheers!

 

[jnesselrode]

Thank you @Chalkyt! I was hoping you'd reply and add some clarity!

I hadn't thought to let the bottles be submerged. That could surely simplify things for me. I have a large enameled canning pot that I used before when doing the 190 degree approach in the pinned post. I was bummed when it didn't work for me this time. But, as @Rish pointed out there's a way to make that work with a little wire.

I did do a reference bottle with a probe thermometer the first batch I did. I found that reached 155 at the same time the water bath recovered to 155.

I'm going to fiddle around with this a bit. I'd love to get this down to x volume of water, x starting temperature, x 12 ounce bottles, x time.

 

[Chalkyt]

As far as developing a formula is concerned, I would expect it to be reasonably easy to do if you “fiddle around” as you say.

Early on when I was looking into pasteurising, I found that a ratio of 1:4 bottles to hot water worked. When two litres of bottles and their contents at room temperature were put into eight litres of 80C hot water the water cooled down and the bottles heated up to reach an equilibrium “pasteurising” temperature of around 70C. Other ratios of course would give different results. Over to you!

I find that I don’t really need to chart the times and temperatures I use for pasteurising batches. Using my current pasteurising approach, I know that 5 bottles at room temperature put into a 65C bath for 10 minutes results in around 50 PUs after the bottles have been heated up and allowed to cool down again. This is near enough for practical purposes. However, recording the numbers is a good check that the desired pasteurisation has happened. Anyhow it is now part of my leisurely pastime of making cider.

Something that you might find useful is a video simulation of the temperature gradient in a bottle during heat pasteurisation. Some time ago I came across information from Turnell Corp showing a CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) study of temperature gradient in a bottle while the contents were heated. Turnell have upgraded this information into a Youtube video which shows the bottle contents temperature gradient over time. The temperature is stabilised throughout the bottle after 600 seconds (10 minutes). It is worth watching. (Google… “Turnell Corp, Simulation of pasteurisation of a liquid in a glass bottle”).

It is also worth noting that the level of PUs doesn’t increase linearly with temperature. It follows an exponential pattern.

Following is some data from a document that I put together a couple of years ago. It shows the exponential growth in PUs per minute and that any temperature over 65C produces reasonably high levels of PUs. Hence the attraction of flash pasteurising for high volume commercial enterprises.

Temp C	60​	61​	62​	63​	64​	65​	66​	67​	68​	69​	70​
Temp F	140​	142​	144​	145​	147​	149​	151​	153​	154​	156​	158​
PUs per minute	1.0​	1.4​	1.9​	2.7​	3.8​	5.2​	7.3​	10.2​	14.2​	19.7​	27.5​

Good luck!

 

[jnesselrode]

Well, I've got a programmable calculator app (a beloved HP 17B II I used for 30 years finally shot craps), so I loaded in the formula.

Sometime soon I plan to get back out the large enamel canning kettle and do some experimenting with volume of water, number and size of bottles, etc.

Also got some labels made at OnlineLabels. I'm really pleased with the results from them.

Gonna let this age for a bit and try in a month or two.

 

[jnesselrode]

dupe

 

[jnesselrode]

I'm sure these will improve with age, but I really wanted to give them a try.

The color difference is pretty interesting to me. Left to right: Cote des Blancs, Nottingham, Safale S-04. Nott has been darker all along the way. CdB seems surprisingly light. Thoughts are welcome.

On to the taste. Firstly, to me, these are very close in taste and all three are good, especially given they've only been in the bottle a little more than a week . All three of these are nice and crisp, and all three have some fruitiness coming through. Nott finished at 1.002, and that little bit of sweet is there and pretty nice. But it's got a slight funk that detracts from things a bit. After multiple small tastings I'm finding it difficult to pick a favorite.

I'm going to have my wife taste this evening and relate what she thinks, because we're often in disagreement on things like this.

I was hoping to gift these this Christmas with instructions to let them age several months, but I think these will be ready sooner.

 

[jnesselrode]

So the missus and I tried all three. We both agreed Nott was our least favorite. Then we put on some blindfolds and each tried them. We both ruled out Nott immediately. We both went back and forth on CdB and S04. In the end, I picked CdB and my wife picked S04, but they were very close.

We both wanted to like Nott because it just looked better with the slightly darker color. The CdB is the palest and haziest and had the least visual appeal. But it and S04 are right on top of each other flavor wise. And, again, surprisingly good given their youth.

Now -- we had bought a bottle of Old Orchard juice for a recipe we were doing for Thanksgiving. Of course I tasted it, and found it quite pleasant with a very different flavor profile than the cider I have always used to make hard cider. Fuller bodied, maybe more tannic, and seemed less sweet. It also is clear and much darker in color. So, I decided I'd get some more and do another test gallon. I used S04 because that was our favorite at bottling. I boosted the tannin a bit from where I have been on the others, hoping to get a different flavor profile. I hope I didn't over do it.

Anyhow, it's now in secondary and I'll hopefully bottle and pasteurize in time for Christmas. That way I can give a 4-pack to a few folks. I love that color!

 

[jnesselrode]

So, we gave all four of the ciders a try tonight. The first three aged a couple months and the fourth a month. They were much improved with even the short amount of aging.

I gotta say, all four were better than anything I’ve done, ever. Upping the acid and tannin in them all really took them into new territory. My previous attempts were pretty thin and bland. These were nice and crisp and more full bodied.

It’s Interesting that my wife didn’t like the Nottingham at all. She ranked that low from the get go and again tonight. Safale S04 was easily her favorite. I liked it too, but I thought they were all good. She had a much wider range of opinions.

The fourth one, made from Old Orchard juice, was out of balance. It was too tart. We swirled in enough sugar to counteract the acid and it was quite good after that. It had more body and a better color, so I think this is where I’ll go next.

This has been a very fun experiment and has encouraged me to do more. Thanks for all the help along the way!

Here’s the pics of the four, which admittedly all look about the same except the darker color on the fourth, which was done with a different juice (Old Orchard)

 

[jnesselrode]

It seems so obvious that it feels a little silly that I didn't think of this before. But, I really love doing these 1-gallon batches. I was so stuck in the 5-gallon thinking that I was hesitant to even do a cider because I was afraid I'd have 50 bottles of something I don't want. There's not that hesitation with these little test batches, which is nice.

So, I started another 1-gallon batch last night with Old Orchard and less acid blend (1 teaspoon versus 2), as our fourth one was a little too tart. Going with our winner, Safale S04.

I have two things in mind for this one:

1. Increase the carbonation level. The three previous were pasteurized and bottled after 5 days when the test bottle felt tight. They have just a touch of carbonation, and I'd like a little more.

2. Though we were happy with the results and will do more plain ciders, both my wife and I are interested in the addition of some fruit just to mix things up a bit. We're thinking possibly cranberries or blueberries, but want to be careful with the acid. Starting pH was 4.0. Didn't do TA

Any suggestions or encouragement would be appreciated.

 

[jnesselrode]

Question for the group: The cider I did with Nottingham was and still is noticeably darker. Same juice in all three, same tannin and acid additions. Does anyone have any thoughts as to why that would be? That just seems odd to me.

I suppose I could have had a little variance between the juices -- I bought 3 one-gallon jugs of the Louisburg Cider -- but that doesn't seem likely. I also suppose I could have mis-measured tannin in that one and added a little color that way.

 

[madscientist451]

We're thinking possibly cranberries or blueberries, but want to be careful with the acid. Starting pH was 4.0. Didn't do TA

Most commercial juices make a fermented cider that is way too tart for me.
I would think cranberries would increase that tartness even more.
Blueberry I’m not sure of, but fruit wines I’ve made in the past don’t really taste anything like the original fruit.
I would suggest looking for blueberry juice or a juice blend in the store and make a cocktail with your plain cider and the juice of choice to see if that’s the flavor you have in mind.
Sometimes you can find blueberry juice at Walmart:
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai...EwiCp4KNkMSEAxUaJ2IAHVsBBXcQzzl6BAgBEH4&nis=8

 

[Raptor99]

Most commercial juices make a fermented cider that is way too tart for me.

Fully fermented juice will always be tart, because there isn't any sugar left. Most cider and fruit wine benefits from a little backsweetening to balance the tartness and bring out the fruit flavor.

Blueberry wine is a case in point. It is tart, and not very interesting without sugar, but once I back sweeten it just a little, wow it tastes like blueberries.

 

[Chalkyt]

Regarding different coloured ciders. I have exactly the same situation. Two trial batches, each with the same blend (Pink Lady, Royal Gala and Fuji) and the same amount of exogenous tannin powder. But, two different yeasts (71B and S04). The only other difference is that today the 71B has finished fermenting and the S04 is a bit behind at 1.005.

But, from the attached pics, the S04 is much darker (an ale yeast as is Nottingham ????)... Go figure!!!!!

 

[jnesselrode]

Glad to see there are similar results out there. Thanks.