The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[ParanoidAndroid]

Please don't take this as me being a jerk because I'm really not trying to be...but how long does it take you to measure out a few minerals and add them to the water that you need to do it the night before to save time? If it is an issue, why not measure them out the night before (keep the measured salts in a small tupperware container) and add them right before you mash in.

I can't help with #2.

For recirculating, use a false bottom like the one Bobby sells and use a very slow flow rate after the pump. The valve on the kettle should be wide open. The valve on the outlet of the pump should be 25% open.

My wife gets home after I do with our toddler. I usually rush home to try and get to the mash in before they get there. Once they get there, I am helping get stuff out of the car, having to fend off the little one, and general chit-chat which gets me distracted. If I've mashed-in before they get there, I get a little break for family time. Even 5 minutes of extra time would be nice.

I'm assuming you'd save the time needed to "preboil", which can be considerable. I see no reason why you cannot add your mineral additions after the yeast/dex deox method when you're raising to mash temps. The goal is simply to get them well dissolved prior to doughing in.

As far as BrewtanB gallotannins go, I cannot find a scholarly article pertaining specifically to zinc chelation. I've been able to find information on almond, walnut, and hazelnut chelation of zinc. Zinc happens to be one metal that is highly variable based on the actual tannins being utilized with anywhere from 0-84% chelation based on nut tannins utilized ("almond tannins bound as much as 84% Zn(II), whereas the value for walnut tannins was only 8.7%; and for hazelnut tannins, no Zn(II) chelation took place at the levels tested."). If zinc is a major concern then you may want to put more research into this topic. I think that while zinc is a necessary micronutrient for living cells, I would suspect that insufficient zinc would manifest it's drawbacks in future generations. Most times the "symptoms" take a couple/few generations to manifest. With this in mind you may choose to use a couple generations in the normal low oxygen method with Brewtan B, and then (using a slurry culture) rebuild the yeast in a normal starter environment (DME, water, nutrients, oxygen) to build back in the micronutrients the yeast may have lacked over a couple fermentations. Or, use a yeast for a couple generations and then start new with a fresh lab yeast.

As h22lude said, a false bottom or possibly even just a torpedo (I think they're called) (i.e. a screen tube affixed to the inside of your drain port on your MLT) would be sufficient to keep the bag from getting sucked into the drain port.

thanks for the info!

The normal pattern would be:

Put water in kettle the night before (I'd like to add minerals here)
Wake up and pitch yeast/dextrose
Go to work and let the little guys de-ox the water
Come back home and mill grains/mash in

 

[stpug]

My wife gets home after I do with our toddler. I usually rush home to try and get to the mash in before they get there. Once they get there, I am helping get stuff out of the car, having to fend off the little one, and general chit-chat which gets me distracted. If I've mashed-in before they get there, I get a little break for family time. Even 5 minutes of extra time would be nice.



thanks for the info!

The normal pattern would be:

Put water in kettle the night before (I'd like to add minerals here)
Wake up and pitch yeast/dextrose
Go to work and let the little guys de-ox the water
Come back home and mill grains/mash in

In a perfect world, you'd do every-single-little-thing precisely as it's supposed to be done to yield the most perfect results. Luckily, we don't have to live in a perfect world .

I like your plan of attack and cannot foresee any major drawbacks from doing as you're planning. If you determine that something didn't work out correctly then you adjust on your next batch. No worries!

 

[h22lude]

My wife gets home after I do with our toddler. I usually rush home to try and get to the mash in before they get there. Once they get there, I am helping get stuff out of the car, having to fend off the little one, and general chit-chat which gets me distracted. If I've mashed-in before they get there, I get a little break for family time. Even 5 minutes of extra time would be nice.



thanks for the info!

The normal pattern would be:

Put water in kettle the night before (I'd like to add minerals here)
Wake up and pitch yeast/dextrose
Go to work and let the little guys de-ox the water
Come back home and mill grains/mash in

Oh I completely understand. I have the same situation (wife and 2 year old). If time is that tight, you could measure out everything the night before and once your water hits strike temp, throw the salts in and add grain. Measuring may take a few minutes. Throwing them in couldn't take longer than 10 seconds to grab the container, pop it open and throw them in.

 

[h22lude]

My understanding is:
Barley malt, itself, has the potential to bring in copper, iron, manganese, zinc, and a host of other metals to your brewday. While some of these may be utilized by the yeast as micronutrients, any excess of some (iron, copper, manganese) will increase the staling rate of your beer; therefore, it's seen as beneficial to use a chelator like BrewtanB regardless of having 100% SS system. In the case of all SS, it may be desirable to reduce your dosage of BtB somewhat so that you avoid too much polyphenol carryover to the finished wort.

Interesting. Would it then be bad to use the yeast nutrient that contains zinc? My guess would be BTB in the mash to get rid of copper, iron, etc and yeast nutrient at the end of the boil to add a little zinc which will be eaten up by the yeast.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Interesting. Would it then be bad to use the yeast nutrient that contains zinc? My guess would be BTB in the mash to get rid of copper, iron, etc and yeast nutrient at the end of the boil to add a little zinc which will be eaten up by the yeast.

The problem is not using it, or say sauergut (supercharged with grain) which is high in zinc. The problem lies when you use too much, and you have excess, that doesn't get taken up by the yeast.

 

[h22lude]

The problem is not using it, or say sauergut (supercharged with grain) which is high in zinc. The problem lies when you use too much, and you have excess, that doesn't get taken up by the yeast.

Oh ok I see. So using BTB in the mash removes any metals (even the good ones like zinc) which makes it a clean slate basically. Then using the right amount of yeast nutrient at the end of the boil would still be beneficial.

Where is a good place to get BTB?

 

[Dog House Brew]

Oh ok I see. So using BTB in the mash removes any metals (even the good ones like zinc) which makes it a clean slate basically. Then using the right amount of yeast nutrient at the end of the boil would still be beneficial.



Where is a good place to get BTB?

There are places that are ordering it. I have yet to find a store in the US that has it on the shelf. I asked my local Homebrew shop and they rarely order from BrewCraft. You find it let us know.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

BTW, if you guys are spunding, be sure to put the damn QD on the "Gas In" post. Here's what I came home to 2 nights ago. Was my first time attempting to ferment in a keg and then transfer to spunding. Thankfully this was about 24 hours after pitch, so before I transferred and attached the spunding valve. 2 seconds of brain farting canceled out 5 hours of work. It was just a QD and 2 feet of line going into a jug of starsan.

 

[passedpawn]

Oh suck. I've had similar happen. Get back on that horse!

 

[Murphys_Law]

If anyone is in the Denver area and looking for BtB let me know. My local ordered some for me and they have it on the shelf now (well, technically it's hanging but...!).

 

[aeviaanah]

I did my first LODO batch a few weeks ago. Did not have time to setup for spunding. I am however set up to pressure transfer to keg. Should I rack to purged keg with sugar and naturally carbonate? I would use a calculator much like the ones for bottle carbonating?

 

[h22lude]

Do you not have a spunding valve or you didn't catch it while it still had some fermentation left? If you have a spunding valve, you can still use it. Add sugar to your fermentor, wait an hour and then transfer to the keg with spunding valve.

 

[Die_Beerery]

It’s gonna take more than an hour if it was weeks ago. I would say it’s no longer a low oxygen batch at this point and go forward with what you normally do. Cold side is just as important as hot.

 

[h22lude]

Oh yeah I skipped right over that. I read "I did my first LODO" and moved on to the rest of the comment.

 

[aeviaanah]

It’s gonna take more than an hour if it was weeks ago. I would say it’s no longer a low oxygen batch at this point and go forward with what you normally do. Cold side is just as important as hot.

****, does this mean all efforts on hot side are wasted efforts?

I am currently two weeks from pitch. S-05 took over 36 hours till krausen tho.

 

[Die_Beerery]

badword, does this mean all efforts on hot side are wasted efforts?

I am currently two weeks from pitch. S-05 took over 36 hours till krausen tho.

I would say yes.

 

[aeviaanah]

What is the significance of the hour you guys wrote about a few posts ago? Why couldn't I add sugar and allow the yeast to carbonate, assuming I have a spunding for transfer

Beerery, you mention it's no longer a LODO batch. Is this because I am not under pressure? The write up at Lowoxygenbrewing says

"If keg/bottle conditioning: Ferment to final gravity and use sugar/speise"

Can you clarify where I went wrong?

 

[Die_Beerery]

You can still sugar prime. Usually this is done within a day or so of end of fermentation. When you sugar prime within that short time window it usually is bubbling and ready in an hour or so. I think a few weeks negates any benefit that we promote.

I stand behind never letting a beer come to final gravity in a fermenter. It yields a product showing more oxidation than spunding.

 

[Dog House Brew]

You can still sugar prime. Usually this is done within a day or so of end of fermentation. When you sugar prime within that short time window it usually is bubbling and ready in an hour or so. I think a few weeks negates any benefit that we promote.

I stand behind never letting a beer come to final gravity in a fermenter. It yields a product showing more oxidation than spunding.

So priming is done at the same gravity as when you would spund?

 

[Die_Beerery]

So priming is done at the same gravity as when you would spund?

No, they would be separate things. The only reason we offer a priming solution is for people missing the spunding window. It's not really meant for ferment a beer wait weeks then package. It would be like this.
Miss spund window (~4points remaining), add sugar solution to make up difference and transfer to spund.
Miss spund window and beer is finished, add solution immediately, wait for airlock action and transfer.

What it's not meant for but can be used with the disclaimer it may be too late..
Is ferment to completion, wait 1-4 weeks and add solution and prime. It's going to carbonate the beer, but its much much to late for the low oxygen effects to be seen.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Is there a certain percentage of post boil wort we are trying to leave in the kettle after whirlpool for a typical 1.060 beer with an average amount of hops (NEIPA would obviously need some more trub volume left behind)?

I do 3.25 gallon (Post boil) batches and normally leave anywhere from around 0.25 to 0.50 gallons, which is 7.7% - 15.4%.

 

[Die_Beerery]

How much ever..only clear wort and not trub gets you. For me that’s about a gallon.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

How much ever..only clear wort and not trub gets you. For me that’s about a gallon.

Do you do 5 gallon batches?

I've also started using a UtahBiodeisel 300 micron filter going from my kettle to my fermenting keg to help with filtering the stuff that accidently gets sucked in. I know that micron size is good for hop particles, but what micron size would be needed for the other stuff we want to keep out.

Sorry for all the questions, I am about to drill my holes for valves and want to get the height right.

 

[Murphys_Law]

See Techbrau's response, post #379.


Interesting that folks are seeing haze with RO water. I guess I haven't had an issue that seemed problematic to me. A friend of mine also uses RO and doesn't have this issue. He uses a copper chiller though, so that may be part of his saving grace. Me though, not sure, since I use a stainless chiller...

I brewed a beer that I wasn’t particularly concerned about haze so I added 1/2 tsp at 16 mins and it turned out OK (use RO). I just kegged so I expect it to clear even more. I also use a copper IC. I forgot to make a slurry and just added the powder to my boil. Oops.

This is an English style IPA and I added rye and flakes rye, plus amber.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

If you look at one of my last posts, I, by accident, put my airlock on the outpost instead of the gas in and almost all my wort left the keg and went into the floor. There was still some wort left in the keg, so I just took the airlock off and let the remaining 0.50-0.75 gallons ferment under pressure. It's been about two weeks and I just tasted the sample and it tastes pretty astringent. The recipe is for a coffee oatmeal stout:

2.85 lb Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 31.9%
2.85 lb Maris Otter Pale 38 3.75 31.9%
1.2 lb Flaked Oats 33 2.2 13.4%
0.75 lb Roasted Barley 33 300 8.4%
0.6 lb Chocolate 29 350 6.7%
0.45 lb CaraMunich II 34 46 5%
0.23 lb Caramel/Crystal 90L 33 90 2.6%

Yeast is WLP001 with some magnum for bittering

I've never fermented under pressure, nor fermented in kegs, so any ideas?

Some possibilities:

-The pressure was A LOT, even with it just being about half a gallon in a 5 gallon keg. Maybe too much pressure for the yeast? Like I said, everything, except a little leaked and I just closed it up to see what would happen. If that hadn't happened, I had a spunding valve ready to go on day 4 or so.

-That's the most roast malt I've used for a LODO(ish) batch. I've read that the roasts really come through on this type of brewing, so maybe too much roast leading to astringency. My pH was 5.4.

-Not enough sugars for the yeast to eat. With it leaking, not enough wort for the yeast. Unintentional overpitch?

 

[stpug]

@ParanoidAndroid I cannot say for certain why your resulting beer would be astringent. I've done a couple stouts with 19.5oz roast malts in 5G batches which is close to the amount you used, but they only accounted for ~9.5% of the total grist in my recipes whereas yours is closer to 15%. I even mashed with a 5.2pH. I had no astringency - there was roast character (i.e. including light roast bitterness) - but none of that tongue-drying and tingling astringency. I've never fermented under pressure, with the exception of spunding to proper carbonation, so I cannot comment on how that might affect the overall yeast performance and their expression in the beer.

I personally do not find roast malts to be overly enhanced in a low oxygen beer; however, I HAVE found toasted malts to be heavily enhanced, particularly as the overall beer flavor lightens.

I'm not much help here as I cannot offer much useful advice in your particular situation. I would personally chalk up a batch like this as an outlier and attempt to re-do the batch as designed to get a proper representation of how low oxygen brewing affects the beer.

 

[fragged]

Though I'd post my LoDO Big Mouth Bubbler Pressure transfer process I rigged up tonight. Might have been covered already, but...

Parts List (had most already):
Plastic Big Mouth Bubbler with spout

10' 3/8 OD 1/4 ID hose for CO2 flow (homedepot)

1/4 barb to 1/4 MFL for CO2 tank connection

3 Piece airlock (just need lower piece)

3/8 Racking hose

Liquid disconnect

Begin with a star san "water purged" keg with a small amount of co2 left. Setup is to jam the 3/8 hose into the airlock with the other end connected to tank. Set tank to 1 psi. Let flow into bucket of sanitizer while you prepare the liquid connection.

For the liquid, jam the racking hose onto the mfl of the liquid QD and screw down until snug. (future upgrade will be a 1/4 flare nut to 3/8 barb fitting, but this worked fine for today). I use this same setup to empty the star san purged keg, so the line is already sanitized. Attach to keg and while co2 is still coming out attach to spout on Big Mouth Bubbler.

Quickly replace fermenting airlock with co2 line/air lock assembly and open spout.

You'll need to hold the top of the fermenter down, as the lids on these come off easily. I held it down by holding the airlock so neither would come out from the pressure. It took me about 5 minutes to transfer 5 gallons.

I snapped a pic just prior to packing it away, next time I'll get one in process. The small line you see goes to the CO2 tank.

First pressure transfer I've done and I was extremely happy with how this went.

 

[MSK_Chess]

what is the rational about having no trub in the fermenter? I am not talking about hop debris but coagulated proteins, hot break etc I am sure that I read somewhere that yeast need these to some extent to metabolize properly. Are they some kind of catalyst for oxygenation? Don't they simply precipitate out and are left behind when transferring after fermentation?

its ok i found this.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

 

[Die_Beerery]

Just coming here to give you that.
[emoji106]

 

[Yooper]

Since this thread is LONG, and there are lots of topics covered here, I am closing it so that we can open new topics in this new forum. If you have any questions, comments or concerns, please PM me.