The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[Die_Beerery]

I use all passivated stainless and start with RO. I doubt there is much heavy metals introduced. Is BTB recommended if using SMB for scavenging o2? What other purposes does it serve?

Short answer yes.

There is metals coming from your equipment, if you use any yeast nutrient and lastly the grains themselves, to name a few.

 

[aeviaanah]

Ok two more changes added to the list thanks beerery.

On a side note, I've been working with Auber, specifically the DSPR310 unit, to allow for cooling in the program.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Few questions:

1. I've seen the recommendation to add minerals (gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salt, et.) after preboiling. What's the reasoning behind this? I use a 75%/100% RO/Tap water mix along with yeast/dextrose deox. I could shave a little prep time by adding the minerals the night before.

2. I'm using wyeast yeast nutrient which contains zinc. Are my additions of brewtan-B negating the dosing with zinc?

3. I'm a BIAB brewer. How would one recirculate without sucking the bag up?

 

[aeviaanah]

What is the "trifecta" blend in hearing about. Is this a DIY blend?

 

[h22lude]

Few questions:

1. I've seen the recommendation to add minerals (gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salt, et.) after preboiling. What's the reasoning behind this? I use a 75%/100% RO/Tap water mix along with yeast/dextrose deox. I could shave a little prep time by adding the minerals the night before.

2. I'm using wyeast yeast nutrient which contains zinc. Are my additions of brewtan-B negating the dosing with zinc?

3. I'm a BIAB brewer. How would one recirculate without sucking the bag up?

Please don't take this as me being a jerk because I'm really not trying to be...but how long does it take you to measure out a few minerals and add them to the water that you need to do it the night before to save time? If it is an issue, why not measure them out the night before (keep the measured salts in a small tupperware container) and add them right before you mash in.

I can't help with #2.

For recirculating, use a false bottom like the one Bobby sells and use a very slow flow rate after the pump. The valve on the kettle should be wide open. The valve on the outlet of the pump should be 25% open.

 

[h22lude]

Short answer yes.

There is metals coming from your equipment, if you use any yeast nutrient and lastly the grains themselves, to name a few.

So even with all SS, you still recommend BTB?

 

[aeviaanah]

Few questions:

1. I've seen the recommendation to add minerals (gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salt, et.) after preboiling. What's the reasoning behind this? I use a 75%/100% RO/Tap water mix along with yeast/dextrose deox. I could shave a little prep time by adding the minerals the night before.

2. I'm using wyeast yeast nutrient which contains zinc. Are my additions of brewtan-B negating the dosing with zinc?

3. I'm a BIAB brewer. How would one recirculate without sucking the bag up?

The issue with adding minerals before boil is the reactions that occur during the boil. You actually change your water profile. I know calcium precipitates- which will lower your calcium content. I'm sure other things are happening as well.

In addition, if using bru n water, acids should be added to cold brewing water as the calculations are figured this way. Not sure if this has an effect on how other calculators are figuring.

 

[stpug]

Few questions:

1. I've seen the recommendation to add minerals (gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salt, et.) after preboiling. What's the reasoning behind this? I use a 75%/100% RO/Tap water mix along with yeast/dextrose deox. I could shave a little prep time by adding the minerals the night before.

2. I'm using wyeast yeast nutrient which contains zinc. Are my additions of brewtan-B negating the dosing with zinc?

3. I'm a BIAB brewer. How would one recirculate without sucking the bag up?

Please don't take this as me being a jerk because I'm really not trying to be...but how long does it take you to measure out a few minerals and add them to the water that you need to do it the night before to save time? If it is an issue, why not measure them out the night before (keep the measured salts in a small tupperware container) and add them right before you mash in.

I can't help with #2.

For recirculating, use a false bottom like the one Bobby sells and use a very slow flow rate after the pump. The valve on the kettle should be wide open. The valve on the outlet of the pump should be 25% open.

I'm assuming you'd save the time needed to "preboil", which can be considerable. I see no reason why you cannot add your mineral additions after the yeast/dex deox method when you're raising to mash temps. The goal is simply to get them well dissolved prior to doughing in.

As far as BrewtanB gallotannins go, I cannot find a scholarly article pertaining specifically to zinc chelation. I've been able to find information on almond, walnut, and hazelnut chelation of zinc. Zinc happens to be one metal that is highly variable based on the actual tannins being utilized with anywhere from 0-84% chelation based on nut tannins utilized ("almond tannins bound as much as 84% Zn(II), whereas the value for walnut tannins was only 8.7%; and for hazelnut tannins, no Zn(II) chelation took place at the levels tested."). If zinc is a major concern then you may want to put more research into this topic. I think that while zinc is a necessary micronutrient for living cells, I would suspect that insufficient zinc would manifest it's drawbacks in future generations. Most times the "symptoms" take a couple/few generations to manifest. With this in mind you may choose to use a couple generations in the normal low oxygen method with Brewtan B, and then (using a slurry culture) rebuild the yeast in a normal starter environment (DME, water, nutrients, oxygen) to build back in the micronutrients the yeast may have lacked over a couple fermentations. Or, use a yeast for a couple generations and then start new with a fresh lab yeast.

As h22lude said, a false bottom or possibly even just a torpedo (I think they're called) (i.e. a screen tube affixed to the inside of your drain port on your MLT) would be sufficient to keep the bag from getting sucked into the drain port.

 

[stpug]

What is the "trifecta" blend in hearing about. Is this a DIY blend?

Yes, the "trifecta" is a DIY blend of K/SMB, Ascorbic Acid, BrewtanB that's generally blended at 45/45/10%, respectively. However, as your brewing processes improve to mitigate oxygen then you may find a reason to alter the blend percentages, in which case it may be preferable to keep them separate and simply weigh out the needed amounts of each for each brewday. The constituents can all be found at a well-stocked LHBS in the USA - BrewtanB recently became available so ask your shop to special order some in from BrewcraftUSA if they don't already have it on their shelves.

 

[stpug]

So even with all SS, you still recommend BTB?

My understanding is:
Barley malt, itself, has the potential to bring in copper, iron, manganese, zinc, and a host of other metals to your brewday. While some of these may be utilized by the yeast as micronutrients, any excess of some (iron, copper, manganese) will increase the staling rate of your beer; therefore, it's seen as beneficial to use a chelator like BrewtanB regardless of having 100% SS system. In the case of all SS, it may be desirable to reduce your dosage of BtB somewhat so that you avoid too much polyphenol carryover to the finished wort.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Please don't take this as me being a jerk because I'm really not trying to be...but how long does it take you to measure out a few minerals and add them to the water that you need to do it the night before to save time? If it is an issue, why not measure them out the night before (keep the measured salts in a small tupperware container) and add them right before you mash in.

I can't help with #2.

For recirculating, use a false bottom like the one Bobby sells and use a very slow flow rate after the pump. The valve on the kettle should be wide open. The valve on the outlet of the pump should be 25% open.

My wife gets home after I do with our toddler. I usually rush home to try and get to the mash in before they get there. Once they get there, I am helping get stuff out of the car, having to fend off the little one, and general chit-chat which gets me distracted. If I've mashed-in before they get there, I get a little break for family time. Even 5 minutes of extra time would be nice.

I'm assuming you'd save the time needed to "preboil", which can be considerable. I see no reason why you cannot add your mineral additions after the yeast/dex deox method when you're raising to mash temps. The goal is simply to get them well dissolved prior to doughing in.

As far as BrewtanB gallotannins go, I cannot find a scholarly article pertaining specifically to zinc chelation. I've been able to find information on almond, walnut, and hazelnut chelation of zinc. Zinc happens to be one metal that is highly variable based on the actual tannins being utilized with anywhere from 0-84% chelation based on nut tannins utilized ("almond tannins bound as much as 84% Zn(II), whereas the value for walnut tannins was only 8.7%; and for hazelnut tannins, no Zn(II) chelation took place at the levels tested."). If zinc is a major concern then you may want to put more research into this topic. I think that while zinc is a necessary micronutrient for living cells, I would suspect that insufficient zinc would manifest it's drawbacks in future generations. Most times the "symptoms" take a couple/few generations to manifest. With this in mind you may choose to use a couple generations in the normal low oxygen method with Brewtan B, and then (using a slurry culture) rebuild the yeast in a normal starter environment (DME, water, nutrients, oxygen) to build back in the micronutrients the yeast may have lacked over a couple fermentations. Or, use a yeast for a couple generations and then start new with a fresh lab yeast.

As h22lude said, a false bottom or possibly even just a torpedo (I think they're called) (i.e. a screen tube affixed to the inside of your drain port on your MLT) would be sufficient to keep the bag from getting sucked into the drain port.

thanks for the info!

The normal pattern would be:

Put water in kettle the night before (I'd like to add minerals here)
Wake up and pitch yeast/dextrose
Go to work and let the little guys de-ox the water
Come back home and mill grains/mash in

 

[stpug]

My wife gets home after I do with our toddler. I usually rush home to try and get to the mash in before they get there. Once they get there, I am helping get stuff out of the car, having to fend off the little one, and general chit-chat which gets me distracted. If I've mashed-in before they get there, I get a little break for family time. Even 5 minutes of extra time would be nice.



thanks for the info!

The normal pattern would be:

Put water in kettle the night before (I'd like to add minerals here)
Wake up and pitch yeast/dextrose
Go to work and let the little guys de-ox the water
Come back home and mill grains/mash in

In a perfect world, you'd do every-single-little-thing precisely as it's supposed to be done to yield the most perfect results. Luckily, we don't have to live in a perfect world .

I like your plan of attack and cannot foresee any major drawbacks from doing as you're planning. If you determine that something didn't work out correctly then you adjust on your next batch. No worries!

 

[h22lude]

My wife gets home after I do with our toddler. I usually rush home to try and get to the mash in before they get there. Once they get there, I am helping get stuff out of the car, having to fend off the little one, and general chit-chat which gets me distracted. If I've mashed-in before they get there, I get a little break for family time. Even 5 minutes of extra time would be nice.



thanks for the info!

The normal pattern would be:

Put water in kettle the night before (I'd like to add minerals here)
Wake up and pitch yeast/dextrose
Go to work and let the little guys de-ox the water
Come back home and mill grains/mash in

Oh I completely understand. I have the same situation (wife and 2 year old). If time is that tight, you could measure out everything the night before and once your water hits strike temp, throw the salts in and add grain. Measuring may take a few minutes. Throwing them in couldn't take longer than 10 seconds to grab the container, pop it open and throw them in.

 

[h22lude]

My understanding is:
Barley malt, itself, has the potential to bring in copper, iron, manganese, zinc, and a host of other metals to your brewday. While some of these may be utilized by the yeast as micronutrients, any excess of some (iron, copper, manganese) will increase the staling rate of your beer; therefore, it's seen as beneficial to use a chelator like BrewtanB regardless of having 100% SS system. In the case of all SS, it may be desirable to reduce your dosage of BtB somewhat so that you avoid too much polyphenol carryover to the finished wort.

Interesting. Would it then be bad to use the yeast nutrient that contains zinc? My guess would be BTB in the mash to get rid of copper, iron, etc and yeast nutrient at the end of the boil to add a little zinc which will be eaten up by the yeast.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Interesting. Would it then be bad to use the yeast nutrient that contains zinc? My guess would be BTB in the mash to get rid of copper, iron, etc and yeast nutrient at the end of the boil to add a little zinc which will be eaten up by the yeast.

The problem is not using it, or say sauergut (supercharged with grain) which is high in zinc. The problem lies when you use too much, and you have excess, that doesn't get taken up by the yeast.

 

[h22lude]

The problem is not using it, or say sauergut (supercharged with grain) which is high in zinc. The problem lies when you use too much, and you have excess, that doesn't get taken up by the yeast.

Oh ok I see. So using BTB in the mash removes any metals (even the good ones like zinc) which makes it a clean slate basically. Then using the right amount of yeast nutrient at the end of the boil would still be beneficial.

Where is a good place to get BTB?

 

[Dog House Brew]

Oh ok I see. So using BTB in the mash removes any metals (even the good ones like zinc) which makes it a clean slate basically. Then using the right amount of yeast nutrient at the end of the boil would still be beneficial.



Where is a good place to get BTB?

There are places that are ordering it. I have yet to find a store in the US that has it on the shelf. I asked my local Homebrew shop and they rarely order from BrewCraft. You find it let us know.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

BTW, if you guys are spunding, be sure to put the damn QD on the "Gas In" post. Here's what I came home to 2 nights ago. Was my first time attempting to ferment in a keg and then transfer to spunding. Thankfully this was about 24 hours after pitch, so before I transferred and attached the spunding valve. 2 seconds of brain farting canceled out 5 hours of work. It was just a QD and 2 feet of line going into a jug of starsan.

 

[passedpawn]

Oh suck. I've had similar happen. Get back on that horse!

 

[Murphys_Law]

If anyone is in the Denver area and looking for BtB let me know. My local ordered some for me and they have it on the shelf now (well, technically it's hanging but...!).

 

[aeviaanah]

I did my first LODO batch a few weeks ago. Did not have time to setup for spunding. I am however set up to pressure transfer to keg. Should I rack to purged keg with sugar and naturally carbonate? I would use a calculator much like the ones for bottle carbonating?

 

[h22lude]

Do you not have a spunding valve or you didn't catch it while it still had some fermentation left? If you have a spunding valve, you can still use it. Add sugar to your fermentor, wait an hour and then transfer to the keg with spunding valve.

 

[Die_Beerery]

It’s gonna take more than an hour if it was weeks ago. I would say it’s no longer a low oxygen batch at this point and go forward with what you normally do. Cold side is just as important as hot.

 

[h22lude]

Oh yeah I skipped right over that. I read "I did my first LODO" and moved on to the rest of the comment.

 

[aeviaanah]

It’s gonna take more than an hour if it was weeks ago. I would say it’s no longer a low oxygen batch at this point and go forward with what you normally do. Cold side is just as important as hot.

****, does this mean all efforts on hot side are wasted efforts?

I am currently two weeks from pitch. S-05 took over 36 hours till krausen tho.

 

[Die_Beerery]

badword, does this mean all efforts on hot side are wasted efforts?

I am currently two weeks from pitch. S-05 took over 36 hours till krausen tho.

I would say yes.

 

[aeviaanah]

What is the significance of the hour you guys wrote about a few posts ago? Why couldn't I add sugar and allow the yeast to carbonate, assuming I have a spunding for transfer

Beerery, you mention it's no longer a LODO batch. Is this because I am not under pressure? The write up at Lowoxygenbrewing says

"If keg/bottle conditioning: Ferment to final gravity and use sugar/speise"

Can you clarify where I went wrong?

 

[Die_Beerery]

You can still sugar prime. Usually this is done within a day or so of end of fermentation. When you sugar prime within that short time window it usually is bubbling and ready in an hour or so. I think a few weeks negates any benefit that we promote.

I stand behind never letting a beer come to final gravity in a fermenter. It yields a product showing more oxidation than spunding.

 

[Dog House Brew]

You can still sugar prime. Usually this is done within a day or so of end of fermentation. When you sugar prime within that short time window it usually is bubbling and ready in an hour or so. I think a few weeks negates any benefit that we promote.

I stand behind never letting a beer come to final gravity in a fermenter. It yields a product showing more oxidation than spunding.

So priming is done at the same gravity as when you would spund?

 

[Die_Beerery]

So priming is done at the same gravity as when you would spund?

No, they would be separate things. The only reason we offer a priming solution is for people missing the spunding window. It's not really meant for ferment a beer wait weeks then package. It would be like this.
Miss spund window (~4points remaining), add sugar solution to make up difference and transfer to spund.
Miss spund window and beer is finished, add solution immediately, wait for airlock action and transfer.

What it's not meant for but can be used with the disclaimer it may be too late..
Is ferment to completion, wait 1-4 weeks and add solution and prime. It's going to carbonate the beer, but its much much to late for the low oxygen effects to be seen.