The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[Die_Beerery]

I have not noticed this, but I use non-common gas lines to start out with because of this..

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[Murphys_Law]

Obviously I don't know what ppm level of sulfites you're aiming for, but I would personally recommend a 20ppm level (or lower). Whatever amount of meta you calculate to get you to that level should be correct. You would add the sulfites just after starting your chiller to get back down to strike temp (i.e. at about 200F±). Once you hit strike temp, which should only take a couple minutes, cap the strike water and give it 5min for the sulfites to scavenge any oxygen that may have mixed into the water.

When you get the BtB, use it; until then, carry on with process changes to get used to the changes regardless of equipment on hand. I have experienced incremental improvement with incremental change.

I picked up some BtB today and planning on using this on my next brew. So should I not use any metasulfite and only use BtB in the mash and boil, or should I still add the meta to my strike water when I insert my IC to bring temps down from pre-boil to strike temp, then add BtB to mash and boil, or...?

I am using a Hydra copper IC.

 

[schematix]

BTB in the mash only.

Definitely do not use it in the boil unless you like permanent haze.

 

[stpug]

I picked up some BtB today and planning on using this on my next brew. So should I not use any metasulfite and only use BtB in the mash and boil, or should I still add the meta to my strike water when I insert my IC to bring temps down from pre-boil to strike temp, then add BtB to mash and boil, or...?

I am using a Hydra copper IC.

BTB in the mash only.

Definitely do not use it in the boil unless you like permanent haze.

I agree with schematix. Brewtan B only in the mash; not the boil (due to it causing long-term haze). Sulfites should still be used; just pick a low dosage (15ppm would be a good starting point). Sulfites would be added after the preboil; at the same time you add your IC to get back down to strike temp.

 

[beersk]

BTB in the mash only.

Definitely do not use it in the boil unless you like permanent haze.

You're doing it wrong.

 

[h22lude]

You're doing it wrong.

Care to give an explanation or just felt like not being helpful?

 

[Murphys_Law]

You're doing it wrong.

Sorry man, but posts like this on "information threads" just drive me batty!

Instead of just making a statement would you care to actually contribute so we can further the discussion, please?

 

[beersk]

Sorry man, but posts like this on "information threads" just drive me batty!

Instead of just making a statement would you care to actually contribute so we can further the discussion, please?

Alright. Well, saying things like, "BtB in the boil will give you permanent haze" is ludicrous. I've had zero problems with using BtB at all stages pre-fermentation - low o2 and non-low o2 methods alike. If anything, it's helped my beers clear faster. Not just me, a friend of mine uses it as well in conjunction with low o2 brewing; clear beers there also.

 

[Dog House Brew]

You're doing it wrong.

As in process or amount?

 

[schematix]

I don't doubt it's not being used correctly, but would you be so kind as to share your expert knowledge with us so we can all use it correctly?

 

[schematix]

Alright. Well, saying things like, "BtB in the boil will give you permanent haze" is ludicrous.

My experience, and the experience of many others, is that it causes permanent haze. It didn't do it once... it did it every single time. 3 times in a row, even with the smallest recommended dose.

I'm sure there's a reason. Let's figure it out maybe?

The product instructions are extremely minimal. I'm sure there's a very good reason for the haze.

 

[beersk]

My experience, and the experience of many others, is that it causes permanent haze. It didn't do it once... it did it every single time. 3 times in a row, even with the smallest recommended dose.

I'm sure there's a reason. Let's figure it out maybe?

The product instructions are extremely minimal. I'm sure there's a very good reason for the haze.

Well there certainly has to be a reason on the chemistry level. I'm not sure what that is, but many people are using it and not experiencing this issue. So I don't know.

Anyone with a chemistry background know what may be happening?


As far as amount and process goes, what I do is use 1/4-1/2T in a couple ounces of really hot water (in a mason jar), swirl it to mix it in until it's basically clear and dissolved, then add at 15 minutes from the end of the boil, 5 minutes before adding whirlfloc.

 

[homoeccentricus]

Well there certainly has to be a reason on the chemistry level. I'm not sure what that is, but many people are using it and not experiencing this issue. So I don't know.

Anyone with a chemistry background know what may be happening?


As far as amount and process goes, what I do is use 1/4-1/2T in a couple ounces of really hot water (in a mason jar), swirl it to mix it in until it's basically clear and dissolved, then add at 15 minutes from the end of the boil, 5 minutes before adding whirlfloc.

I've had it too, the usual amount of btb in the boil, resulting in muddy beer. There have been a number of other reports.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Although this does not explicitly explain why BtB might cause permanent haze, it might shed some insight into why it may be the case or at very least provide some background as to why permanent haze forms for those that are interested.

Haze and Polyphenol Polymerisation

Simple flavanoids present in beer do not produce haze since the polyphenol protein agglomeration is of suffiently low molecular weight as to be and remain soluble and hence invisible. As the beer ages however, the flavanoids oxidise and begin to polymerise. The oligomeric polyphenol produced is able to crosslink protein molecules and produce a much less soluble entity. As the temperature of the beer is reduced, the agglomerate precipitates and is observed as a chill haze. Upon warming the precipitate dissolves and the haze disappears.

With prolonged storage the oxidised flavanoids continue to polymerise and become known as tannoids. Tannoid protein agglomerates are of such a size (>60,000 Daltons), as to be insoluble in beer even at ambient temperatures and hence give rise to permanent haze.

Clearly concentration of haze precursors has a profound effect upon haze formation. Limiting the concentration of either one or both of these species can be used as strategies to control haze formation. The availability of oxygen, accelerates the oxidative polymerisation of polyphenols in beer. Quite apart from the deleterious affects on beer flavour, oxygen catalyses the conversion of flavanoids to tannoids, and hence the development of permanent haze. Transition metal ions such as copper and iron have been implicated as redox catalysts in the oxidation of flavanoids to tannoids. Exposing the beer to heat simply serves to accelerate the oxidation / polymerisation reactions, according to standard chemical kinetics.

The presence of certain carbohydrate materials, especially alginic acid, which is a contaminant of propylene glycol alginate, (PGA) used for foam stabilisation, has been found to accelerate haze formation. This is typically characterised by a large visible particulate matter in the beer. If PGA is used and a particulate haze is observed; staining with thionin reveals a pink colouration with acidic polysaccharides such as alginates.

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/Resourc...ocesses_and_Techniques/TheNatureBeerHazes.pdf

 

[aeviaanah]

What are we using BTB for?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What are we using BTB for?

Oxygen scavenging.

 

[MSK_Chess]

What are we using BTB for?

I don't use it personally but just for the info,

Due to its strong reducing power and its inhibiting properties against aldehyde formation Brewtan B can be added at mashing-in to improve flavour stability. When used at mashing-in a remarkable improvement of lautering performance can be achieved, with improved brewhouse yields and higher extraction quality.

By using Brewtan B at boiling haze forming proteins are selectively removed already early on in the brewing process and final colloidal stability is significantly improved. Use at this stage of the process also has a marked positive effect on whirlpool yields, shortens maturation times and provides longer filter runtimes.

http://www.natural-specialities.com/PDF/Data-sheets/Brewtan B - Datasheet v1.0.pdf

 

[Die_Beerery]

Oxygen scavenging.

No, BTB is not an oxygen scavenger.

 

[techbrau]

BTB is used to bind up stray metals such as iron and copper from the brewing water and wort. If these metals are allowed to stay in the beer, they act as catalysts for oxidation in the finished beer, analogous to how amylase enzymes act as catalysts for the breakdown of starch into sugar in the mash.

I did some experiments brewing with RO vs. tap water and I found that when I used RO, BTB at flameout resulted in permanent haze. When I used tap water, it didn’t result in haze even when used in the boil. I’m not yet 100% sure about the mechanism behind that.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I did some experiments brewing with RO vs. tap water and I found that when I used RO, BTB at flameout resulted in permanent haze. When I used tap water, it didn’t result in haze even when used in the boil. I’m not yet 100% sure about the mechanism behind that.

My trials follow this as well. My guess was the heavy metals in the tap water where bound to and dropped resulting in the clarity. However when the metals are not present it can't bond and floc.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

No, BTB is not an oxygen scavenger.

Please explain its main purpose.

 

[stpug]

I've also experienced long-term haze from late boil BtB additions in both tap and RO treated water. I've since stopped using it late in the boil and have seen improvement in the beer clearing more quickly. Brewtan B is primarily used as a chelation agent to bind up some metals which would otherwise serve as oxidation catalysts further downstream (reducing beer stability). The problem with that is that if the Brewtan B (i.e. polyphenols) don't get bound up then they, as well, will serve as a staling agent downstream. It's a balancing act for sure. Just my observations in my scenario, and my understanding at this time; as always, YMMV.

One thing I notice on every batch is this (video clip below starts after dry water additions have been added):
-I preboil strike water
-I add my dry water additions (BtB, CaCl2, CaSO4, SBT, AA, etc.)
----At this point, my perfectly clear strike water goes full-on cloudy and remains that way until.....
-I add my liquid acid to adjust strike pH
----At this point, my full-on cloudy strike water goes back to clear with a tinge of earthy orange/pink color to it

I've used varying amounts and types of water additions over the years and this "full-on cloudy" thing didn't happen until BtB was introduced. It's this same full-on cloudy thing that happens when I added BtB late in the boil (granted, no additional acids were added at this point).

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fmjDdSL5bU[/ame]

 

[beersk]

Please explain its main purpose.

See Techbrau's response, post #379.


Interesting that folks are seeing haze with RO water. I guess I haven't had an issue that seemed problematic to me. A friend of mine also uses RO and doesn't have this issue. He uses a copper chiller though, so that may be part of his saving grace. Me though, not sure, since I use a stainless chiller...

 

[homoeccentricus]

Haze with RO water and stainless steel chiller.

 

[aeviaanah]

I use all passivated stainless and start with RO. I doubt there is much heavy metals introduced. Is BTB recommended if using SMB for scavenging o2? What other purposes does it serve?

 

[Murphys_Law]

If I use a copper IC will this help with reducing/eliminating haze at boil??

 

[h22lude]

If I use a copper IC will this help with reducing/eliminating haze at boil??

Chilling the wort as quick as possible is best but using copper will increase oxidation. Certain metals do that. That is what brewtan b is for. It helps remove those metals.

 

[aeviaanah]

Is the Hochkurz step mash recommended for well modified malts (Briess, Weyermann, Rahr)?

What changes can I expect if I incorporate this schedule as opposed to a single infusion mash with mash out? Why is it recommended?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Hochkurz is literally made for well modified malts.

A normal beer with flabby foam and head retention.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Edit:double post.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I use all passivated stainless and start with RO. I doubt there is much heavy metals introduced. Is BTB recommended if using SMB for scavenging o2? What other purposes does it serve?

Short answer yes.

There is metals coming from your equipment, if you use any yeast nutrient and lastly the grains themselves, to name a few.

 

[aeviaanah]

Ok two more changes added to the list thanks beerery.

On a side note, I've been working with Auber, specifically the DSPR310 unit, to allow for cooling in the program.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Few questions:

1. I've seen the recommendation to add minerals (gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salt, et.) after preboiling. What's the reasoning behind this? I use a 75%/100% RO/Tap water mix along with yeast/dextrose deox. I could shave a little prep time by adding the minerals the night before.

2. I'm using wyeast yeast nutrient which contains zinc. Are my additions of brewtan-B negating the dosing with zinc?

3. I'm a BIAB brewer. How would one recirculate without sucking the bag up?

 

[aeviaanah]

What is the "trifecta" blend in hearing about. Is this a DIY blend?

 

[h22lude]

Few questions:

1. I've seen the recommendation to add minerals (gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salt, et.) after preboiling. What's the reasoning behind this? I use a 75%/100% RO/Tap water mix along with yeast/dextrose deox. I could shave a little prep time by adding the minerals the night before.

2. I'm using wyeast yeast nutrient which contains zinc. Are my additions of brewtan-B negating the dosing with zinc?

3. I'm a BIAB brewer. How would one recirculate without sucking the bag up?

Please don't take this as me being a jerk because I'm really not trying to be...but how long does it take you to measure out a few minerals and add them to the water that you need to do it the night before to save time? If it is an issue, why not measure them out the night before (keep the measured salts in a small tupperware container) and add them right before you mash in.

I can't help with #2.

For recirculating, use a false bottom like the one Bobby sells and use a very slow flow rate after the pump. The valve on the kettle should be wide open. The valve on the outlet of the pump should be 25% open.

 

[h22lude]

Short answer yes.

There is metals coming from your equipment, if you use any yeast nutrient and lastly the grains themselves, to name a few.

So even with all SS, you still recommend BTB?

 

[aeviaanah]

Few questions:

1. I've seen the recommendation to add minerals (gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salt, et.) after preboiling. What's the reasoning behind this? I use a 75%/100% RO/Tap water mix along with yeast/dextrose deox. I could shave a little prep time by adding the minerals the night before.

2. I'm using wyeast yeast nutrient which contains zinc. Are my additions of brewtan-B negating the dosing with zinc?

3. I'm a BIAB brewer. How would one recirculate without sucking the bag up?

The issue with adding minerals before boil is the reactions that occur during the boil. You actually change your water profile. I know calcium precipitates- which will lower your calcium content. I'm sure other things are happening as well.

In addition, if using bru n water, acids should be added to cold brewing water as the calculations are figured this way. Not sure if this has an effect on how other calculators are figuring.

 

[stpug]

Few questions:

1. I've seen the recommendation to add minerals (gypsum, CaCl2, Epsom Salt, et.) after preboiling. What's the reasoning behind this? I use a 75%/100% RO/Tap water mix along with yeast/dextrose deox. I could shave a little prep time by adding the minerals the night before.

2. I'm using wyeast yeast nutrient which contains zinc. Are my additions of brewtan-B negating the dosing with zinc?

3. I'm a BIAB brewer. How would one recirculate without sucking the bag up?

Please don't take this as me being a jerk because I'm really not trying to be...but how long does it take you to measure out a few minerals and add them to the water that you need to do it the night before to save time? If it is an issue, why not measure them out the night before (keep the measured salts in a small tupperware container) and add them right before you mash in.

I can't help with #2.

For recirculating, use a false bottom like the one Bobby sells and use a very slow flow rate after the pump. The valve on the kettle should be wide open. The valve on the outlet of the pump should be 25% open.

I'm assuming you'd save the time needed to "preboil", which can be considerable. I see no reason why you cannot add your mineral additions after the yeast/dex deox method when you're raising to mash temps. The goal is simply to get them well dissolved prior to doughing in.

As far as BrewtanB gallotannins go, I cannot find a scholarly article pertaining specifically to zinc chelation. I've been able to find information on almond, walnut, and hazelnut chelation of zinc. Zinc happens to be one metal that is highly variable based on the actual tannins being utilized with anywhere from 0-84% chelation based on nut tannins utilized ("almond tannins bound as much as 84% Zn(II), whereas the value for walnut tannins was only 8.7%; and for hazelnut tannins, no Zn(II) chelation took place at the levels tested."). If zinc is a major concern then you may want to put more research into this topic. I think that while zinc is a necessary micronutrient for living cells, I would suspect that insufficient zinc would manifest it's drawbacks in future generations. Most times the "symptoms" take a couple/few generations to manifest. With this in mind you may choose to use a couple generations in the normal low oxygen method with Brewtan B, and then (using a slurry culture) rebuild the yeast in a normal starter environment (DME, water, nutrients, oxygen) to build back in the micronutrients the yeast may have lacked over a couple fermentations. Or, use a yeast for a couple generations and then start new with a fresh lab yeast.

As h22lude said, a false bottom or possibly even just a torpedo (I think they're called) (i.e. a screen tube affixed to the inside of your drain port on your MLT) would be sufficient to keep the bag from getting sucked into the drain port.

 

[stpug]

What is the "trifecta" blend in hearing about. Is this a DIY blend?

Yes, the "trifecta" is a DIY blend of K/SMB, Ascorbic Acid, BrewtanB that's generally blended at 45/45/10%, respectively. However, as your brewing processes improve to mitigate oxygen then you may find a reason to alter the blend percentages, in which case it may be preferable to keep them separate and simply weigh out the needed amounts of each for each brewday. The constituents can all be found at a well-stocked LHBS in the USA - BrewtanB recently became available so ask your shop to special order some in from BrewcraftUSA if they don't already have it on their shelves.

 

[stpug]

So even with all SS, you still recommend BTB?

My understanding is:
Barley malt, itself, has the potential to bring in copper, iron, manganese, zinc, and a host of other metals to your brewday. While some of these may be utilized by the yeast as micronutrients, any excess of some (iron, copper, manganese) will increase the staling rate of your beer; therefore, it's seen as beneficial to use a chelator like BrewtanB regardless of having 100% SS system. In the case of all SS, it may be desirable to reduce your dosage of BtB somewhat so that you avoid too much polyphenol carryover to the finished wort.