The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[jwalk4]

Do you have a citation for this or is it something you determined using a dissolved oxygen meter?

I forget the article, but this info was pulled from a study in the 70's, I think. Studying pvc liners on 12oz bottles. I think they were twist offs.

A guy on a Reddit AMA claiming to be a brewing/food scientist that worked for a major brewery owned by AbImBev was quoted for the 7ppb/day figure that is used as the modern standard.

 

[beernutz]

I forget the article, but this info was pulled from a study in the 70's, I think. Studying pvc liners on 12oz bottles. I think they were twist offs.
[big images deleted]

A guy on a Reddit AMA claiming to be a brewing/food scientist that worked for a major brewery owned by AbImBev was quoted for the 7ppb/day figure that is used as the modern standard.

Very interesting, thanks!

 

[Bilsch]

I wonder why they haven't switched pvc liners to pvdc which is far less oxygen permeable.

 

[Big Monk]

I wonder why they haven't switched pvc liners to pvdc which is far less oxygen permeable.

The last 2 bottles of 750 ml Westmalle I bought had a big honkin’ 29mm cap that had what I can only describe as a rubber gasket seal on the inside. That beer tasted fresher than any Westmalle I had ever had.

 

[jwalk4]

I wonder why they haven't switched pvc liners to pvdc which is far less oxygen permeable.

Like I mentioned, that was an old study.

I did some searching and found the source of my 7ppb/day figure. It was a guy who worked for anhesuir-busch (sp), for one of their pilot brewing projects. He did an "ask me anything" on Reddit 4 years and 2 years ago.

So yeah, obviously with new liners and better capping technology has improved the ingress rate. For those who can pay to play, at least.


Another figure i came across, for those interested, is that you can estimate TPO by multiplying your DO reading by 2.5. Itll get you in the ball park, supposedly.

 

[Big Monk]

Like I mentioned, that was an old study.

I did some searching and found the source of my 7ppb/day figure. It was a guy who worked for anhesuir-busch (sp), for one of their pilot brewing projects. He did an "ask me anything" on Reddit 4 years and 2 years ago.

So yeah, obviously with new liners and better capping technology has improved the ingress rate. For those who can pay to play, at least.


Another figure i came across, for those interested, is that you can estimate TPO by multiplying your DO reading by 2.5. Itll get you in the ball park, supposedly.

This is one of the reasons why bottling is such a challenge. Canning on the other hand is becoming a viable option for homebrewers.

I had the pleasure of drinking some canned beers from Die Beerery a few months ago and they were G-L-O-R-I-O-U-S!

 

[jwalk4]

I had the pleasure of drinking some canned beers from Die Beerery a few months ago and they were G-L-O-R-I-O-U-S!

 

[Dog House Brew]

The only thing I know is that I vehemently hate waxed bottles from homebrewers. It's always hell to remove the wax

I’m going to make a stripper wire when I cork my quad. I agree, just dipping would be a PIA!

 

[Big Monk]

Over the summer I was overnighted (to my surprise!) a care package from my favorite low oxygen brewhouse.

Pale Ale was the best I have ever had and the Marzen ranked up there with Ayinger Marzen (my favorite). I expressed my opinions on the flavors and our palates match very closely. Bryan cracked cans of his own the following week and confirmed no loss in flavor from keg to can so we came to the conclusion that the flavors were not impacted by shipping them to me.

Overall a tasty experiment for me!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Has anyone among us tried "Antioxin SB", which is an antioxidant made specifically for beer? Is it just another name for "Brewtan B"?

 

[jwalk4]

A few of the low oxygen brewing people have it and use it, but you cant buy it from retail. You need a specific permit to purchase, meaning its really for commercial use omly for some reason.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Has anyone among us tried "Antioxin SB", which is an antioxidant made specifically for beer? Is it just another name for "Brewtan B"?

Yes... http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/ingredients/antioxin-sbt/


And no to BTB

 

[stpug]

Has anyone among us tried "Antioxin SB", which is an antioxidant made specifically for beer? Is it just another name for "Brewtan B"?

SB is different than SBT, where the 'T' equates to the 'tannins' (i.e. gallotannins, BrewtanB, etc). Many low oxygen brewers have used the SBT formulation, and a few may have also used the SB in testing.

In regards to SBT: Many folks have used either the preformulated Antioxin SBT or the DIY SBT/trifecta (the DIY is easy to make and should amount to the same "changes" in the brewery, and the components [Metabisulfites, ascorbic acid, gallotannins] are readily available (Brewtan B is now being offered to homebrew shops in the USA via brewcraftUSA). TBH, once you get a system dialed in to minimize oxygen ingress in the brewing process, you are better served with having the three components (S/B/T) as separate additions since you are able to minimize the sulfite addition while maintaining differing levels of ascorbic and gallotannins.

Just to be clear, the 'T' in SBT is for tannins (or gallotannins) which would be the equivalent to Brewtan B. Therefore, Brewtan B is in SBT, but SBT contains more than just Brewtan B.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Will SBT ever be made available to the public? Why the need for a Federal Brewers license?

 

[homoeccentricus]

In Europe it can be ordered without a problem.

 

[Big Monk]

Will SBT ever be made available to the public? Why the need for a Federal Brewers license?

Assembling from the constituent parts is probably a better route anyway. Then You have control over the gallotannin and AA

 

[stpug]

SB is different than SBT, where the 'T' equates to the 'tannins' (i.e. gallotannins, BrewtanB, etc). Many low oxygen brewers have used the SBT formulation, and a few may have also used the SB in testing.

In regards to SBT: Many folks have used either the preformulated Antioxin SBT or the DIY SBT/trifecta (the DIY is easy to make and should amount to the same "changes" in the brewery, and the components [Metabisulfites, ascorbic acid, gallotannins] are readily available (Brewtan B is now being offered to homebrew shops in the USA via brewcraftUSA). TBH, once you get a system dialed in to minimize oxygen ingress in the brewing process, you are better served with having the three components (S/B/T) as separate additions since you are able to minimize the sulfite addition while maintaining differing levels of ascorbic and gallotannins.

Just to be clear, the 'T' in SBT is for tannins (or gallotannins) which would be the equivalent to Brewtan B. Therefore, Brewtan B is in SBT, but SBT contains more than just Brewtan B.

Will SBT ever be made available to the public? Why the need for a Federal Brewers license?

Assembling from the constituent parts is probably a better route anyway. Then You have control over the gallotannin and AA

Like I and RPIScotty said, assembling your own is probably a better route to take since you can tailor to your system/specs/needs/desires. AFAIK, there's nothing magical about SBT, in and of itself, it's just premixed for easy brewery additions. I suspect it's suggested use is also taking into account no premash oxygen mitigation techniques (i.e. preboiling), thus those of us that deaerate our brew water have been finding the need to reduce the amount of SBT used and then having to supplement back the gallotannins (using Brewtan B) and ascorbic.

As for why a Federal Brewers license is needed, I certainly don't know. All of it's parts can be bought individually off the shelf without one.

 

[Bilsch]

I had the pleasure of drinking some canned beers from Die Beerery a few months ago and they were G-L-O-R-I-O-U-S!

I keep looking for that brand but they aren't selling it out west yet.

 

[Big Monk]

I keep looking for that brand but they aren't selling it out west yet.

Those artisanal Lager breweries never have good distribution

 

[h22lude]

Little bit of a problem. BRewing my first LODO batch and I forgot to account for the increased height of my false bottom so my chiller isn't working at 100% since some of it is out of the wort. It is stuck at 75°F right now. What is my best option? My only thought is to transfer to my carboy and let it chill in the fridge which is obviously not the best for LODO.

Brewing a pilsner. Trying to get down to 48°F.

 

[Big Monk]

Little bit of a problem. BRewing my first LODO batch and I forgot to account for the increased height of my false bottom so my chiller isn't working at 100% since some of it is out of the wort. It is stuck at 75°F right now. What is my best option? My only thought is to transfer to my carboy and let it chill in the fridge which is obviously not the best for LODO.

Brewing a pilsner. Trying to get down to 48°F.

Pump ice water if you can.

 

[h22lude]

Pump ice water if you can.

Good idea. Recirculating right now. Down to 60°F. I think I will need a lot of ice to get this down to 50°F just because of the small surface area the chiller has right now. I may need to use my CFC for now. I have to do a good cleaning though. It has been sitting.

 

[The_Bishop]

I *finally* got a chance to brew the pale ale incorporating the low oxygen methods. Start with RO that has a TDS of 4, preboil, chill to strike temps, add minerals and sodium metabisulfite targeting 20ppm. 'Underlet' the mash via slowly lowering the basket into the hot liquor, carefully stir to ensure no doughballs. Set recirculation arm so it's below the mash surface and recirculate for the whole mash, including mashout.

Aside from the pre-boiling/chilling/Na-Meta, this is my standard routine. I've brewed this pale ale numerous times. Incorporating the LoDo stuff, I hit a pre-boil gravity of 1.039. My usual run of this stuff clocks right in at 1.043, every time. The volumes are right on the money, too. My normal mash efficiency is right on 90% with a 1.050 range beer. This one clocked in at 84%.

Is this efficiency hit normal with the low oxygen process? The milling is the same as it always is; it's my own 3 roller mill. The adjustments are all correct on it. The mash PH clocked in at 5.40 when I'm usually in the 5.42 range which I attributed to the metabisulfite/measurement 'noise'. I'm pretty thorough with my process and I'm reasonably certain that it's nothing different aside from the LoDo addition.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I was just wondering how did Die Beerery get those beers canned?

 

[mabrungard]

I was just wondering how did Die Beerery get those beers canned?

There are now home canners available. They had a display at the AHA conference in Minneapolis last summer.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Cheers Martin I think I found it. pretty awesome

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGQzYOR3Rqs[/ame]

 

[thekraken]

What would the concern be? The sulfites aren’t going to make it to he finished beer in sulfite form (they go to Na and SO4) and the Brewtan B will (should be at least if dosed correctly for you system) bound up and whirlpooled out.

IRT Brewtan B, what if one doesn't whirlpool? Are there risks if it makes into your glass?

 

[Big Monk]

I *finally* got a chance to brew the pale ale incorporating the low oxygen methods. Start with RO that has a TDS of 4, preboil, chill to strike temps, add minerals and sodium metabisulfite targeting 20ppm. 'Underlet' the mash via slowly lowering the basket into the hot liquor, carefully stir to ensure no doughballs. Set recirculation arm so it's below the mash surface and recirculate for the whole mash, including mashout.

Aside from the pre-boiling/chilling/Na-Meta, this is my standard routine. I've brewed this pale ale numerous times. Incorporating the LoDo stuff, I hit a pre-boil gravity of 1.039. My usual run of this stuff clocks right in at 1.043, every time. The volumes are right on the money, too. My normal mash efficiency is right on 90% with a 1.050 range beer. This one clocked in at 84%.

Is this efficiency hit normal with the low oxygen process? The milling is the same as it always is; it's my own 3 roller mill. The adjustments are all correct on it. The mash PH clocked in at 5.40 when I'm usually in the 5.42 range which I attributed to the metabisulfite/measurement 'noise'. I'm pretty thorough with my process and I'm reasonably certain that it's nothing different aside from the LoDo addition.

Nothing particular about preboiling and using Meta that would directly cause that. People commonly take a small hit in efficiency when they first try it, usually due to the new process throwing them off their game a bit. Nothing a few brew sessions won’t knock out. What was your mash schedule like?

 

[hopsnmalt]

I have contacted Wyeast regarding Brewtan B and they will only sell it to registered breweries. They have refused to sell it to homebrew stores on any grounds. I have a few friends that have breweries and I am going to try to buy some from them. The minimum quantity is 1# (= $ 66) Might you be able to drum up some interests from others so we could split a 1# quantity? I am looking to split it into (8) 2 oz packets or possibly (10) 1.5 oz packets.

Cheers
Bob

 

[The_Bishop]

Being as it is a simple pale ale, initial infusion at 152f (66.7c) for a 60 minute mash with a 10 minute mashout at 168(75.5).

What's odd is I didn't alter any other process steps in wort creation aside from the pre-boil/chill/NaMeta. I doughed in the same, recirculated the same. Hell, even the mineral profile was the same.

This is actually my second time around doing 'full blown' LoDo. I incorporated some of the steps into my current brewhouse process after my initial test run minus the preboil/NaMeta.

It's odd. Not sure I like having a 60% brewhouse after regularly being in the 79-80% range. Since my gravity readings were low, I had to extend the boil a bit to hit my intended starting gravity and as a result I'll have less than 5 gallons of beer in the keg. Not the end of the world but it irritates the perfectionist in me.