The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[Bilsch]

just for clarities sake, which homebrewers here that purport to brew using low oxygen methods haveo2 measuring equipment?

A lot of us do although it's not strictly necessary to have one and still do a good job of it.

 

[newuser12345]

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

ask and ye shall receive

https://imgur.com/a/y3rfd

 

[thekraken]

ask and ye shall receive

https://imgur.com/a/y3rfd

If you're going to go down this road you might want to use a photo of your equipment in hand, not a photo pulled off the internet.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...hEYGGmQHYyLn4BA&start=0&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=924

 

[newuser12345]

A lot of us do although it's not strictly necessary to have one and still do a good job of it.

you feel the same way about hydrometers and thermometers I suppose?

 

[newuser12345]

If you're going to go down this road you might want to use a photo of your equipment in hand, not a photo pulled off the internet.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...hEYGGmQHYyLn4BA&start=0&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=924

at work my man, don't keep it on hand 24/7

 

[thekraken]

at work my man, don't keep it on hand 24/7

Fair enough, just sayin.

 

[Die_Beerery]

If you're going to go down this road you might want to use a photo of your equipment in hand, not a photo pulled off the internet.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...hEYGGmQHYyLn4BA&start=0&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=924

:smack:

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Has there been any definitive calculation (or assumption) about the percentage reduction of roast malts given that they come through way more with LODO? Even though I am not 100% LODO, regular chocolate malt is overpowering. Thinking about just cutting back 50% and adding some deshusked carafe to make up for color.

 

[Big Monk]

Has there been any definitive calculation (or assumption) about the percentage reduction of roast malts given that they come through way more with LODO? Even though I am not 100% LODO, regular chocolate malt is overpowering. Thinking about just cutting back 50% and adding some deshusked carafe to make up for color.

You could Sinamar as well as opposed to Carafa.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yea, I can easily pick up enough roast from sinamar alone. Even at 2% in a schwarzbier it’s prominent.

 

[mabrungard]

Has there been any definitive calculation (or assumption) about the percentage reduction of roast malts given that they come through way more with LODO? Even though I am not 100% LODO, regular chocolate malt is overpowering. Thinking about just cutting back 50% and adding some deshusked carafe to make up for color.

I think I've perceived this, but I'm not sure its a product of the roast itself. Since the LODO approach at the homebrew level often employs metabisulfite, the sulfate content of the water is therefore increased to some degree. Roast and sulfate can create drying effect in your beer and their combination may be more than you intend or prefer. Be sure to cut back any other sulfate additions in the brewing water to avoid this aspect.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I think I've perceived this, but I'm not sure its a product of the roast itself. Since the LODO approach at the homebrew level often employs metabisulfite, the sulfate content of the water is therefore increased to some degree. Roast and sulfate can create drying effect in your beer and their combination may be more than you intend or prefer. Be sure to cut back any other sulfate additions in the brewing water to avoid this aspect.

I don't use any sulfites in my process anymore, and my roast malts are possibly more potent ( if not the same) then they were with sulfites. I also do not use any sulfates in my brewing water. Just another data point.

 

[afro_lou]

Subbing for all the great info!

 

[Murphys_Law]

I don't use any sulfites in my process anymore, and my roast malts are possibly more potent ( if not the same) then they were with sulfites. I also do not use any sulfates in my brewing water. Just another data point.

So you stopped using metabisulfite altogether? Doesn't the web site still talk about adding it to the mash?

 

[Big Monk]

So you stopped using metabisulfite altogether? Doesn't the web site still talk about adding it to the mash?

It takes a considerable amount of streamlining and modification in your system to be free of sulfites. We dont recommend that for people starting out. Hence the 20-30 ppm baseline dose.

 

[Die_Beerery]

So you stopped using metabisulfite altogether? Doesn't the web site still talk about adding it to the mash?

Yes, and Yes. What I do is certainly not for the folks just wanting to dabble in Low oxygen. Our site is built around trying to make it as easy as possible and meta is certainly that.

I use active sauergut (great o2 reduction potential) and gas my grist while milling with n2. Then I add my grist into the Tun, and purge all my lines, vessels and grist again with n2. I then mash under a gasketed cap, with a layer of n2. Everything I do is either in a purged n2 vessel or under a cap. So I don't need to add sulfites anymore.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Would Brewtan B or Antioxin SBT be accepted under Reinheitsgebot?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Would Brewtan B or Antioxin SBT be accepted under Reinheitsgebot?

Thats a great question... both substances would be gone after the boil, so how would anybody know? They already do some interesting stuff to bend those rules. I will say no, but follow that up with.. who would know.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Yes, and Yes. What I do is certainly not for the folks just wanting to dabble in Low oxygen. Our site is built around trying to make it as easy as possible and meta is certainly that.

I use active sauergut (great o2 reduction potential) and gas my grist while milling with n2. Then I add my grist into the Tun, and purge all my lines, vessels and grist again with n2. I then mash under a gasketed cap, with a layer of n2. Everything I do is either in a purged n2 vessel or under a cap. So I don't need to add sulfites anymore.

AH! I think I'll skip all that and try some sodium metabisulfite for now!

According to your spreadsheet I need to dose around .68g (don't have the exact # in front of me). Do I add this before or after dough-in? I also adjusted my other salts to account for the change in water chemistry (sulfate, ph, etc).

I ordered some BtB from my local (use a Jaded Hydra and not in a position to replace it now) but not sure if it will be here in time for the next brew day so for my hot side I am going to pre-boil, use the above, and add a mash cap. Any other advice?

I have been doing OK on the cold side (I think) with all closed transfers.

 

[homoeccentricus]

Thats a great question... both substances would be gone after the boil, so how would anybody know? They already do some interesting stuff to bend those rules. I will say no, but follow that up with.. who would know.

You can only add things that you can remove afterwards such as pvpp.

 

[beernutz]

Yes, and Yes. What I do is certainly not for the folks just wanting to dabble in Low oxygen. Our site is built around trying to make it as easy as possible and meta is certainly that.

I use active sauergut (great o2 reduction potential) and gas my grist while milling with n2. Then I add my grist into the Tun, and purge all my lines, vessels and grist again with n2. I then mash under a gasketed cap, with a layer of n2. Everything I do is either in a purged n2 vessel or under a cap. So I don't need to add sulfites anymore.

Why N2 instead of say CO2? Would Argon also work because I have a 5# tank of that?

 

[brewbama]

If it was easy, we'd all be making Bitburger. Copper chiller with no mitigation for its effects will preclude you from brewing low oxygen. This isn't me saying this, this is brewing science.

No we wouldn’t. I lived in Germany. Bitte ein Bit! No thanks! I’ll pass. There were always better choices. ...and still are. YMMV Just me I guess.

In the Netherlands, they'd swipe that foam off with a scraper before serving. For them, major faux pas to serve like that.



I'm drinking a homebrew pils at the moment that just has the perfect head. It's halfway gone, but still sporting this wonderful 1/4" foam. I probably should dispense more aggressively to get rid of some of the carbonation, but I've got these awesome flow control taps and they make a really nice glass.

I remember those bars in Amsterdam. They’d have a line of beers, whip that knife across them, and blam: a line of perfect beers. Awesome! Bartending as an artform.

 

[stpug]

Why N2 instead of say CO2? Would Argon also work because I have a 5# tank of that?

Argon would work equally as well as N2, however costs more (if you don't already have it). CO2 also works; the concern is a dropping of pH due to carbonic acid, however I suspect it would take a significant amount to get much drop. A pH meter is your friend here.

 

[stpug]

AH! I think I'll skip all that and try some sodium metabisulfite for now!

According to your spreadsheet I need to dose around .68g (don't have the exact # in front of me). Do I add this before or after dough-in? I also adjusted my other salts to account for the change in water chemistry (sulfate, ph, etc).

I ordered some BtB from my local (use a Jaded Hydra and not in a position to replace it now) but not sure if it will be here in time for the next brew day so for my hot side I am going to pre-boil, use the above, and add a mash cap. Any other advice?

I have been doing OK on the cold side (I think) with all closed transfers.

Obviously I don't know what ppm level of sulfites you're aiming for, but I would personally recommend a 20ppm level (or lower). Whatever amount of meta you calculate to get you to that level should be correct. You would add the sulfites just after starting your chiller to get back down to strike temp (i.e. at about 200F±). Once you hit strike temp, which should only take a couple minutes, cap the strike water and give it 5min for the sulfites to scavenge any oxygen that may have mixed into the water.

When you get the BtB, use it; until then, carry on with process changes to get used to the changes regardless of equipment on hand. I have experienced incremental improvement with incremental change.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Yes, and Yes. What I do is certainly not for the folks just wanting to dabble in Low oxygen. Our site is built around trying to make it as easy as possible and meta is certainly that.

I use active sauergut (great o2 reduction potential) and gas my grist while milling with n2. Then I add my grist into the Tun, and purge all my lines, vessels and grist again with n2. I then mash under a gasketed cap, with a layer of n2. Everything I do is either in a purged n2 vessel or under a cap. So I don't need to add sulfites anymore.

Do you use some type of valve to hold the gas inline? My rig has longer lines. Looking forward to my next batches. Lots of copper at the recycler. [emoji6]Looks like you’ve made some awesome leaps. I was watching your tube videos tonight. Long way in the last year, really informative. Thanks

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I use active sauergut (great o2 reduction potential) and gas my grist while milling with n2. Then I add my grist into the Tun, and purge all my lines, vessels and grist again with n2. I then mash under a gasketed cap, with a layer of n2.[...]

I had read this earlier and find it fascinating.
Could you relate by whatever metric you prefer how much N2 per batch (size?) your process uses?

Cheers!

 

[Bilsch]

I use active sauergut (great o2 reduction potential) and gas my grist while milling with n2. Then I add my grist into the Tun, and purge all my lines, vessels and grist again with n2. I then mash under a gasketed cap, with a layer of n2. Everything I do is either in a purged n2 vessel or under a cap. So I don't need to add sulfites anymore.

I no longer use sulfites either and instead completely purge my entire system and grist with nitrogen. I don't use the sauergut though but purge longer to compensate. Works very well.

 

[h22lude]

For those that transfer to a keg with spunding valve to finish fermenting and naturally carb, when you take samples to check the FG do you hook up CO2 to keep the pressure or do you not worry if the pressure decreases a little?

 

[jwalk4]

No don't hook up the co2.

 

[stpug]

For those that transfer to a keg with spunding valve to finish fermenting and naturally carb, when you take samples to check the FG do you hook up CO2 to keep the pressure or do you not worry if the pressure decreases a little?

No extra co2 is needed for pulling a small sample (even up to about 12oz). The one thing to pay attention is when you pull a sample you increase the headspace and it takes a few moments for the co2 to come out of solution and repressurize that space. If you know you're dealing with a finicky lid (i.e. a lid that's easy to lose it's seal) then just stick around for 30 seconds after pulling your sample/beer to ensure the lid stays sealed.

 

[Iseneye]

For those that transfer to a keg with spunding valve to finish fermenting and naturally carb, when you take samples to check the FG do you hook up CO2 to keep the pressure or do you not worry if the pressure decreases a little?

I ferment in a 23l keg and transfer to an 19l keg and these are hooked from gas out to line in with disconnects during fermentation. I ferment under pressure with a spunding valve on the 19l keg and have a picnic tap connected with a short length of tubing to a liquid disconnect. I briefly connect the picnic tap to the fermenting keg and there is enough pressure in the system to extract liquid for the hydro reading. For my system I don't need to pressurise with outside CO2.

 

[h22lude]

Thanks I'll take the sample and leave it be to see what happens.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I carb 2psi higher to account for sampling.

 

[MSK_Chess]

from what I understand soured wort needs to be pitched into the mash at a fairly low temp for it to have its desired effect. (50 C -ish) Could you guys be more explicit on this please.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Any hotter will kill the lacto (or severely hinder it). As part of my routine I dough in at 50c and it takes about 10 minutes for me to dough in, I then start ramping immediately to 63c. Being that the water is degassed and the malt/container has been gassed. It’s just to eat up anything left from the dough in process.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Any hotter will kill the lacto (or severely hinder it). As part of my routine I dough in at 50c and it takes about 10 minutes for me to dough in, I then start ramping immediately to 63c. Being that the water is degassed and the malt/container has been gassed. It’s just to eat up anything left from the dough in process.

ok I think I understand, the Lacto needs to be active in order to munch any residual oxygen in there. Its pretty fascinating to be honest. Because of covalent bonds and those extra pair of unpaired electrons oxygen is always looking to grab something from somewhere.

 

[Die_Beerery]

ok I think I understand, the Lacto needs to be active in order to munch any residual oxygen in there. Its pretty fascinating to be honest. Because of covalent bonds and those extra pair of unpaired electrons oxygen is always looking to grab something from somewhere.

Yup, I did some testing many moons ago to test the scavenging power of SG, it was quite powerful. SG took tap water from 8ppm to about 2ppm in an hour. This is using a standard SG rate of what one would use for a mash.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

As far as spunding, I had planned on just fermenting in the keg with a regular airlock attached to a QD. Then I would transfer when a few points away to another keg to spund at whatever psi. Should I just spund in the first keg under a little pressure?

Also those variable pressure valves seem not to have the best reviews. Has anyone used a better quality one?

 

[newuser12345]

As far as spunding, I had planned on just fermenting in the keg with a regular airlock attached to a QD. Then I would transfer when a few points away to another keg to spund at whatever psi. Should I just spund in the first keg under a little pressure?

Also those variable pressure valves seem not to have the best reviews. Has anyone used a better quality one?

the pressure valves are terribly inaccurate, that's why you need to use a gauge with them.

 

[stpug]

As far as spunding, I had planned on just fermenting in the keg with a regular airlock attached to a QD. Then I would transfer when a few points away to another keg to spund at whatever psi. Should I just spund in the first keg under a little pressure?

Also those variable pressure valves seem not to have the best reviews. Has anyone used a better quality one?

Some folks have been spunding in primary. The biggest drawback seems to be the amount of trub/yeast and hazy/cloudy pours. You can certainly address both issues using devices like clear draught system or cask widges; granted, it won't reduce the amount of crud in the bottom of the keg. I haven't seen any reports of autolysis flavors when kegs are kept cold and finished in reasonable time (i.e. 6weeks±).

I'm using the SS variable pressure valves from morebeer, and they are decent - not perfect. I've found their biggest fault is opening at pressures above my set pressure, but it's easily solved by occasionally flicking the top/screw. Since I don't use a gauge in my spunding device build, I set it before I ever put it on a keg and will do the flicking thing occasionally over the next two-three days. After 3 days, I remove the device and let the keg rest a day since it's at FG and carbed at that point. TBT, I don't know if my kegs are hitting 2.3vols or 2.7vols, or somewhere in between, but the beer has bubbles, foam, and tastes as I'd expect.