The OFFICIAL Low Oxygen Brewing Thread, AKA lodo, lowdo, LOB

[AMessenger]

Has anybody looked into how flushing the grain and brewing vessels with Nitrogen might impact the process? Could that eliminate the need to add the campden?

Never tried it but, if effective, it would seem like nitrogen would be a relatively easy lever to pull.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As far as copper is concerned, use Brewtan B/gallotannins as recommended in the mash and boil.

Aside from the oxygen aspect, another reason to control copper is to protect some of the flavour compounds in hops which would otherwise complex with copper. Thiols such as 4MSP (aka 4MMP) and 3SHA are responsible for passionfruit and blackcurrant flavours in sauvignon blanc grapes, and have also been found in hops such as Apollo, CTZ, Nelson Sauvin and Simcoe.

They associate so readily with copper that just using copper sulphate as a fungicide on the vines will reduce their levels in the wine made months later. I'm not aware of anyone looking at this kind of thing in hops (Masters project anyone?) but one would guess that copper could reduce those elements of hop flavour.

 

[Big Monk]

Has anybody looked into how flushing the grain and brewing vessels with Nitrogen might impact the process? Could that eliminate the need to add the campden?

Never tried it but, if effective, it would seem like nitrogen would be a relatively easy lever to pull.

Yup. Beerery does that as part of his SOP for milling and doughing-in and uses very low doses of Meta.

There are plenty of levers to pull first though before you get there. If you’ve done all the major things and are then looking for tweaks to get you dose lower, then nitrogen flushing and using active Sauergut are two things to try.

 

[jwalk4]

Has anybody looked into how flushing the grain and brewing vessels with Nitrogen might impact the process? Could that eliminate the need to add the campden?

Never tried it but, if effective, it would seem like nitrogen would be a relatively easy lever to pull.

@Bilsch has some pics posted of his gas n' mash setup at the low oxygen brewing forums.
http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=293&start=30

Nice looking blog btw.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I am sulfite free. I purge all grain and vessels/lines with N2. I then use a gasket lid that is pretty air tight with no headspace. I dough in low using fresh sauergut which has very good oxygen reduction potential.

A small dose of sulfites (20ppm or so) is much easier than the purging, so I will always recommend that as one of the last levers to pull. The other thing to mention and reiterate is that none of these sulfites will be around longer than oxygenation of the wort since oxygen easy displaces any residual sulfites left over (though we preach target zero after boil). It’s when folks use too much sulfite and don’t use it up at oxygenation that you can end up with overly sulfury beers. However lager yeasts seem to tolerate it much better than ale yeasts. Another little interesting tidbit is yeast actually produce their own sulfites. Lager yeast produce around 25ppm on their own during a cold fermentation. This is why we always recommend a cold fermentation with no temp raise. You raise the temp you will not get nearly the amount of sulfites. Those sulfites then stick around to preserve that delicious beer.

 

[whovous]

OK, dumb question time. Do you oxygenate before pitching yeast? Is that consistent with the LODO method? Or are there times when oxygen is just fine?

 

[Die_Beerery]

According to the professional literature, the only time oxygen is allowed in wort is for oxygenation when pitching. However there are ways where you can even get away with out that. But to answer your question. Yes always oxygenate when pitching.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Is the preferred Meta the K or Na version?

 

[Big Monk]

Is the preferred Meta the K or Na version?

Either is acceptable at the doses we recommend. Narziß does mention, however, that potassium levels in the mash should stay below 10 ppm. I think there is ~11 ppm K contributed at 30 ppm KMeta.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

Aren't yall even a little concerned about these sulfites and Brewtan additions in your finished beer?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Aren't yall even a little concerned about these sulfites and Brewtan additions in your finished beer?

As I said before and is a very common misconception.

“The other thing to mention and reiterate is that none of these sulfites will be around longer than oxygenation of the wort since oxygen easy displaces any residual sulfites left over (though we preach target zero after boil). It’s when folks use too much sulfite and don’t use it up at oxygenation that you can end up with overly sulfury beers. However lager yeasts seem to tolerate it much better than ale yeasts. Another little interesting tidbit is yeast actually produce their own sulfites. Lager yeast produce around 25ppm on their own during a cold fermentation.”

 

[jwalk4]

Aren't yall even a little concerned about these sulfites and Brewtan additions in your finished beer?

Nah.

30ppm in 10 gallons of water is 1 gram.
Plus, yeast releases sulfate as part of their life cycle.

Fir discussion purposes, what's your concern?

 

[whovous]

According to the professional literature, the only time oxygen is allowed in wort is for oxygenation when pitching. However there are ways where you can even get away with out that. But to answer your question. Yes always oxygenate when pitching.

That is what I thought. Yeast needs oxygen. And when they finish with it, it is not oxygen anymore.

But I am still easily confused. Microscopic amounts of oxygen in the early phases destroy the delicate polyphenols that are so important to the LODO method. But when pitching time comes, we just blast O2 into the wort. What happens to the polyphenols when we do that?

I am gradually taking steps to control O2 throughout my process. I use meta and will soon do a pre-boil as well. I plan to start kegging for O2 control as well.

But if O2 is to be avoided at all other steps, why does it have no negative consequences at the pitching step? Yeast need O2, so there is probably not a lot of choice in the matter, but lack of choice can't be the reason the O2 does not affect polyphenols here. Are they already gone by this point, or what?

 

[Big Monk]

Aren't yall even a little concerned about these sulfites and Brewtan additions in your finished beer?

What would the concern be? The sulfites aren’t going to make it to he finished beer in sulfite form (they go to Na and SO4) and the Brewtan B will (should be at least if dosed correctly for you system) bound up and whirlpooled out.

 

[schematix]

All chemical reactions have a temperature dependent reaction rate. What happens at 150F may happen orders of magnitude slower at 40F.

Oxygen is needed for yeast health. So you pitch the yeast and oxygenate right away. If your yeast is active it’ll immediately start to take up the oxygen.

 

[Big Monk]

I made a minor change to the spreadsheet that shows the gram amounts of each of the Trifecta constituents. Previously you would have had to look at the total gram amount for SBT/TF and crunch the numbers separately.

 

[jwalk4]

Anyone have any data on cap ingress for swingtop bottles?

 

[Big Monk]

Anyone have any data on cap ingress for swingtop bottles?

No hard data AFAIK but it certainly shouldn’t be a bad deal with fresh gaskets.

 

[fuzzy2133]

Anyone have any data on cap ingress for swingtop bottles?

Not sure if you might be thinking of using swingtops for another use.

I am sure oxygen could get in if you were to bottle flat beer. Little hard for oxygen to ingress with CO2 pressure in the bottle from carbonation.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Not sure if you might be thinking of using swingtops for another use.

I am sure oxygen could get in if you were to bottle flat beer. Little hard for oxygen to ingress with CO2 pressure in the bottle from carbonation.

No, due to Henry’s law, normal beer caps let in ~7ppb o2 a day. While that doesn’t seem like much, after 2 weeks of carbing you have let in ~100ppb. The limit we specify is 150ppb, so it’s pretty much there from cap ingress alone.

 

[Big Monk]

No, due to Henry’s law, normal beer caps let in ~7ppb o2 a day. While that doesn’t seem like much, after 2 weeks of carbing you have let in ~100ppb. The limit we specify is 150ppb, so it’s pretty much there from cap ingress alone.

I got your back...

 

[Die_Beerery]

I got your back...

Ahh yes, got phone auto corrected!

 

[Dog House Brew]

So fir higher gravity bottles that age, what then? Waxing? I’ve never waxed any of my corked Belgians. I rarely age any style, but I’m getting ready to brew a quad.

 

[beernutz]

No, due to Henry’s law, normal beer caps let in ~7ppb o2 a day. While that doesn’t seem like much, after 2 weeks of carbing you have let in ~100ppb. The limit we specify is 150ppb, so it’s pretty much there from cap ingress alone.

Do you have a citation for this or is it something you determined using a dissolved oxygen meter?

 

[Big Monk]

So fir higher gravity bottles that age, what then? Waxing? I’ve never waxed any of my corked Belgians. I rarely age any style, but I’m getting ready to brew a quad.

If your concern was long term stability then yes, waxing would be the jam.

 

[Dog House Brew]

If your concern was long term stability then yes, waxing would be the jam.

I have lots of other processes to improve, but every incremental step helps I guess. I hear quad gets better with age. I’ve not found a style that needs age. Thanks

 

[mabrungard]

If your concern was long term stability then yes, waxing would be the jam.

I'm guessing that waxing the cork or cap would decrease oxygen ingress somewhat, but is wax really that oxygen-impermeable?

 

[Big Monk]

I'm guessing that waxing the cork or cap would decrease oxygen ingress somewhat, but is wax really that oxygen-impermeable?

I don't have data on that Martin but i'd have to say it's damn near the best you can do. It may not be impermeable but I recall reading it is pretty close.

All speculation though. I have waxed only a handful of bottles and the ones I did were not low oxygen.

 

[h22lude]

Not that this is the same but I read a study done on wine corks and the ones that were dipped in wax kept the oxygen out. It may not be 100% impermeable but it is pretty damn close...at least that is what I took away from that article/study.

 

[homoeccentricus]

The only thing I know is that I vehemently hate waxed bottles from homebrewers. It's always hell to remove the wax

 

[jwalk4]

Do you have a citation for this or is it something you determined using a dissolved oxygen meter?

I forget the article, but this info was pulled from a study in the 70's, I think. Studying pvc liners on 12oz bottles. I think they were twist offs.

A guy on a Reddit AMA claiming to be a brewing/food scientist that worked for a major brewery owned by AbImBev was quoted for the 7ppb/day figure that is used as the modern standard.

 

[beernutz]

I forget the article, but this info was pulled from a study in the 70's, I think. Studying pvc liners on 12oz bottles. I think they were twist offs.
[big images deleted]

A guy on a Reddit AMA claiming to be a brewing/food scientist that worked for a major brewery owned by AbImBev was quoted for the 7ppb/day figure that is used as the modern standard.

Very interesting, thanks!

 

[Bilsch]

I wonder why they haven't switched pvc liners to pvdc which is far less oxygen permeable.

 

[Big Monk]

I wonder why they haven't switched pvc liners to pvdc which is far less oxygen permeable.

The last 2 bottles of 750 ml Westmalle I bought had a big honkin’ 29mm cap that had what I can only describe as a rubber gasket seal on the inside. That beer tasted fresher than any Westmalle I had ever had.

 

[jwalk4]

I wonder why they haven't switched pvc liners to pvdc which is far less oxygen permeable.

Like I mentioned, that was an old study.

I did some searching and found the source of my 7ppb/day figure. It was a guy who worked for anhesuir-busch (sp), for one of their pilot brewing projects. He did an "ask me anything" on Reddit 4 years and 2 years ago.

So yeah, obviously with new liners and better capping technology has improved the ingress rate. For those who can pay to play, at least.


Another figure i came across, for those interested, is that you can estimate TPO by multiplying your DO reading by 2.5. Itll get you in the ball park, supposedly.

 

[Big Monk]

Like I mentioned, that was an old study.

I did some searching and found the source of my 7ppb/day figure. It was a guy who worked for anhesuir-busch (sp), for one of their pilot brewing projects. He did an "ask me anything" on Reddit 4 years and 2 years ago.

So yeah, obviously with new liners and better capping technology has improved the ingress rate. For those who can pay to play, at least.


Another figure i came across, for those interested, is that you can estimate TPO by multiplying your DO reading by 2.5. Itll get you in the ball park, supposedly.

This is one of the reasons why bottling is such a challenge. Canning on the other hand is becoming a viable option for homebrewers.

I had the pleasure of drinking some canned beers from Die Beerery a few months ago and they were G-L-O-R-I-O-U-S!

 

[jwalk4]

I had the pleasure of drinking some canned beers from Die Beerery a few months ago and they were G-L-O-R-I-O-U-S!

 

[Dog House Brew]

The only thing I know is that I vehemently hate waxed bottles from homebrewers. It's always hell to remove the wax

I’m going to make a stripper wire when I cork my quad. I agree, just dipping would be a PIA!

 

[Big Monk]

Over the summer I was overnighted (to my surprise!) a care package from my favorite low oxygen brewhouse.

Pale Ale was the best I have ever had and the Marzen ranked up there with Ayinger Marzen (my favorite). I expressed my opinions on the flavors and our palates match very closely. Bryan cracked cans of his own the following week and confirmed no loss in flavor from keg to can so we came to the conclusion that the flavors were not impacted by shipping them to me.

Overall a tasty experiment for me!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Has anyone among us tried "Antioxin SB", which is an antioxidant made specifically for beer? Is it just another name for "Brewtan B"?