The Extract "twang" - what is it?

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Yes, the kits I was talking about were LME. I have also used fresh LME and had no problems. If you have a good local store, they should sell their LME out of bulk and if they are doing a lot of business, that vat turns over quickly (I was told a week or less).

I prefer to use DME anyway though, even if the LME is fresh.

 

[h4rdluck]

Well I can only re-iterate my stance if in fact "Extract Twang" is a lack of following basic principles its not the "Extract" causing the twang. Anyone can make crappy beer if you don't follow basic rules extract OR AG... So again Extract twang is still a myth in my book. And the fact that many are blaming it on inexperience and not following the rules only strengthens my argument...

imo that is.

 

[jaynik]

As luck would have it, I went to my LHBS to buy the stuff for a blond, and they were fresh out of the LME I needed, so they subbed for DME at the same price. I'll now get a chance to brew the same beer and see if my results are different!

 

[jmancuso]

What is the latest into the boil you can add extract (liquid or dry)?

 

[ChshreCat]

In some of my recipes, I add LME at flameout. It's already been boiled once, so all you have to do is heat it up to make sure it's sanitary. And that's even debatable, IMO. We're talking about concentrated wort here. If there was anything living in it, you'd probably know about it as soon as you opened it up. But better safe than sorry... might as well at least get it hot.

 

[brett]

I have feeling it's relating to using poor quality or "stale" extract.
I've made some very good extract brews from quality kits.

I'm convinced this is the case. I have made many batches, AG, PM, and extract, using both DME and LME. I have found that if you use LME, it needs to be fresh.

A very concentrated boil seems to be connected also. DME is great, and I use it, but LME is not the enemy. Stale LME is the enemy.

 

[jrc]

After reading this thread (and hundreds of others on this site and others), my question is whether it is worthwhile jumping straight to all grain brewing for a beginner if the money is there to buy the proper equipment/supplies? I've brewed a couple of kits with friends in the past few years, and recently stumbled across some Russian River Pliny clone recipes while reading IPA reviews for a beer bet I'm putting together with a friend. The clone recipes are all grain recipes, and I have been looking into spending the money and goodwill my wife is willing to put toward my birthday toward buying the basic equip/ingredients needed for the clone recipe. Is there any reason (other than the obvious financial/time commitments) not to jump straight into all grain, brewing as opposed to first going through an extract brewing period? This seems especially feasible for me based on the Deathbrewer article on stovetop, all grain brewing in a bag. Now, after reading about extract "twang" or even the possibility of it (I don't recall our beer having a "twang" when brewing with a kit that included extract, but I was also just happy to have homebrewed beer), it seems like even a better choice to go straight for all grain. Any reason not to?

 

[rayg]

After reading this thread (and hundreds of others on this site and others), my question is whether it is worthwhile jumping straight to all grain brewing for a beginner if the money is there to buy the proper equipment/supplies? I've brewed a couple of kits with friends in the past few years, and recently stumbled across some Russian River Pliny clone recipes while reading IPA reviews for a beer bet I'm putting together with a friend. The clone recipes are all grain recipes, and I have been looking into spending the money and goodwill my wife is willing to put toward my birthday toward buying the basic equip/ingredients needed for the clone recipe. Is there any reason (other than the obvious financial/time commitments) not to jump straight into all grain, brewing as opposed to first going through an extract brewing period? This seems especially feasible for me based on the Deathbrewer article on stovetop, all grain brewing in a bag. Now, after reading about extract "twang" or even the possibility of it (I don't recall our beer having a "twang" when brewing with a kit that included extract, but I was also just happy to have homebrewed beer), it seems like even a better choice to go straight for all grain. Any reason not to?

You can always go back to extract if you have poor results with
AG, not so the other way around. But AG introduces a whole other
set of variables that can go wrong, one of the more common problems
I had was astringency. You are going to have to control water
chemistry and temps carefully with AG to avoid that kind of problem.
I don't think the chance of extract "twang" is more worrisome
than astringency with AG, but I never had any problem with any
of the extracts I used once I had learned to pitch starters and
control temps.

Ray

 

[rexbanner]

After reading this thread (and hundreds of others on this site and others), my question is whether it is worthwhile jumping straight to all grain brewing for a beginner if the money is there to buy the proper equipment/supplies? I've brewed a couple of kits with friends in the past few years, and recently stumbled across some Russian River Pliny clone recipes while reading IPA reviews for a beer bet I'm putting together with a friend. The clone recipes are all grain recipes, and I have been looking into spending the money and goodwill my wife is willing to put toward my birthday toward buying the basic equip/ingredients needed for the clone recipe. Is there any reason (other than the obvious financial/time commitments) not to jump straight into all grain, brewing as opposed to first going through an extract brewing period? This seems especially feasible for me based on the Deathbrewer article on stovetop, all grain brewing in a bag. Now, after reading about extract "twang" or even the possibility of it (I don't recall our beer having a "twang" when brewing with a kit that included extract, but I was also just happy to have homebrewed beer), it seems like even a better choice to go straight for all grain. Any reason not to?

I just brewed my second batch using his stovetop method and here's MY (keyword MY, not anyone else's) opinion.

AG brewing on the stovetop is a pain in the ass. It's produced my best beer yet, but it adds over an hour on to an already long process, and that hour involves work. Getting the grain and water into that pot sucks. It takes forever to stir up the grains. It's easy for water to overflow, or for wort to drip, and it just makes a mess overall. I have not had much luck maintaining a steady temp. It's difficult to take accurate hydrometer readings due to the suspended particles that slip through the bag.

That being said, most of that's due to me being a noob and not preparing and working out all the little bumps yet. I love his method for giving me the confidence to try AG brewing, but I will be constructing my own cooler mash tun ASAP, because I feel its worth it.

I have never experienced extract twang. I believe that as long as you sanitize, follow directions, and keep fermentation temp at proper range, barring acts of God, you will have a decent beer. The only batch I've ever had that sucked was due to my dad shutting the AC off each day without my knowledge.

If you're confident, go straight into AG. I do both, and use extract brews to experiment, and AG to make beers I know will kick ass.

 

[ChshreCat]

I just brewed my second batch using his stovetop method and here's MY (keyword MY, not anyone else's) opinion.

AG brewing on the stovetop is a pain in the ass. It's produced my best beer yet, but it adds over an hour on to an already long process, and that hour involves work. Getting the grain and water into that pot sucks. It takes forever to stir up the grains. It's easy for water to overflow, or for wort to drip, and it just makes a mess overall. I have not had much luck maintaining a steady temp. It's difficult to take accurate hydrometer readings due to the suspended particles that slip through the bag.

That being said, most of that's due to me being a noob and not preparing and working out all the little bumps yet. I love his method for giving me the confidence to try AG brewing, but I will be constructing my own cooler mash tun ASAP, because I feel its worth it.

I have never experienced extract twang. I believe that as long as you sanitize, follow directions, and keep fermentation temp at proper range, barring acts of God, you will have a decent beer. The only batch I've ever had that sucked was due to my dad shutting the AC off each day without my knowledge.

If you're confident, go straight into AG. I do both, and use extract brews to experiment, and AG to make beers I know will kick ass.

I don't do AG yet, but I've done some pretty big partial mashes and moved from doing it a pot to a converted cooler. I can state without any hesitation that the cooler is WAY easier to deal with than a pot on the stove. It can take some work to get your mash temp right, but beyond that it's a lot easier.

 

[Beernik]

I did an AG on my stove using a cooler to do the mash without any significant issues. It increased my brew day by 2 hours though. In a couple weeks I'm considering attempting a decoction mash. That might be a bit tougher on the range.

 

[Pivzavod]

I also think a lot of it has to do with the quality of the extract. I did 95% of my extract brewing with extract from morebeer.com. When I went to my “local” supply store (an hour drive in each direction); I used the standard “can” LME – and was astounded by the results. For the first time ever; I actually tasted the “twang”. Note the twang beer was also a partial all grain …. Which I believe supports my thesis even better.

Essentially; fresh extract = great. Old / canned extract = I will never touch again. Obviously, I didn’t run any numbers and my sample size (n=1) is very small. But its enough to changer my habits …. And now I am an AG brewer.

I agree. Bought 4 kits of French Petite Saison from NB last year and kept them for a few months. I am fermenting the very last one right now and I've noticed twanginess at its fullest. Age of LME is key in twang taste in your home brewing. Case closed

 

[rayg]

There are about a million things that can cause an off taste
in homebrew, and I think this "twang" that people claim to
taste is probably due to something else. I brewed many light
extract beers, using old, new and mixed batches using
various brands and types (ale, lager) of light liquid extract,
and I have never noticed a thing. I think the only possible
problem it could cause is if you are trying to brew some
super light ale, and some old DME may be too dark. But the
off flavor should be of caramelized malt, because aged
malt extract is essentially "cooked" slowly and there are
therefore more melanoidins in it.

Ray

 

[AlterCow]

This is an absolute myth. I've been brewing some time and have no idea what this twangy taste is....The only weird tastes I've ever gotten are from poor hop balance, weird spice ingredients I was playing around with, or the infected batch I got from using Wild Berries...that even though I pasteurized still managed to get infected (Probably some damn stem leftover or something.

I could see getting an off taste from using a pre-hopped LME and boiling it for an hour though possibly. Maybe that is what is happening to people...

If your gunna add a LME thats pre-hopped you should probably add it 5 minutes before the boil is over...I hate pre-hopped LME. that crap is the devil.

Then I must be living in a fantasy world because it is quite real to me. Even the Unicorn Bob and the God Thor agree with me.

This has been a great thread and there is a lot to consider. I am particularly interested in partial boils vs full boils and DME vs LME. SO far I have been doing partial boils with LME. I could use the step up to an 8gal pot to do a full boil and make use of my newly acquired bulk DME's.

 

[h4rdluck]

well i'd certainly give us an update after you try your new DME! Hopefully this expunges your twang effect. If so I'd become even more leary of LME. I only used that stuff on my first batch. It was good. That was all. And frankly I just never saw syrup as being better than powered.

There does seem to be something going on with LME...but whether its an age issue, a storage issue, brand issue, or pre-hopped issue, or just plain should never be used issue. I don't know. But I'll stick with my DME because its never been a problem for anyone so far as I know.

 

[rayg]

I agree. Bought 4 kits of French Petite Saison from NB last year and kept them for a few months. I am fermenting the very last one right now and I've noticed twanginess at its fullest. Age of LME is key in twang taste in your home brewing. Case closed

Double-blind taste test, anyone?

Ray

 

[ChshreCat]

Some time when I feel like wasting the time and money to do an experiment, I'll brew one of my recipes using fresh bulk LME and then rebrew it using a dusty can and see if any twang shows up in the second batch. It certainly hasn't bee appearing in my brews with fresh LME.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Just think of fresh pineapple versus pineapple from a can. Which one has a twang? Is it the pineapple's fault? It is the can.

Forrest

 

[brewagentjay]

Just think of fresh pineapple versus pineapple from a can. Which one has a twang? Is it the pineapple's fault? It is the can.

Forrest

"Sure I can learn alot about a steak by sticking my head up a bulls a$$ but in this case I'll take the butchers word for...."

They sell the stuff so they should know what the issue would be...:rockin:

 

[Nugent]

Just think of fresh pineapple versus pineapple from a can. Which one has a twang? Is it the pineapple's fault? It is the can.

Forrest

+1. Found a bottle of extract IPA in the fridge (ca. 6 mo. old) and compared it to the same IPA recipe, but all-grain, that a friend brewed. Both were certainly IPAs, but the difference was a thinness in the extract brew (presumably partially caused by age-induced hoppiness decline), plus, more importantly to this discussion, the extract IPA had that twang.

It was hard to describe, but I knew that quality exactly the minute I tasted it. The extract brew was made with LME, so ...

I'm not wanting, in any way, to sound like a nose-up, 'all-grain is god' d-bag, (I have made a quite a few AG beers that sucked a**) but that twang is not something that I have specifically noticed in any all-grain beers that I have brewed. Oh yeah, don't worry. There are a whole array of new weird flavours that come out when brewing all-grain.

Would love to know what the twang is, though. Awesome thread.

 

[Beernik]

I think its most likely either insufficient FAN (free amino nitrogen) which is a necessary nutrient for proper fermentation or its cidery/cloying off flavors because the LME has been diluted with sucrose or other adjuncts.

The FAN issue should be easily resolvable by adding yeast nutrient to the boil.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

It is the metallic taste from the can and the canned extract is at least 6 months old before the store gets it. So, it is about 9 months before you brew with it. We sell extract in bulk (150,000 pounds of it per year at last count) and do not have any complaints about twang. We only order extract made in North America so it is really fresh.

Forrest

 

[ChshreCat]

I'm with Forrest on this one completely. The LME I get at my local shop is probably the same stuff he sells (big blue containers, Forrest?) and it's a fresh as it gets. No twang in my beers at all! I'd proudly line my beers up alongside anyone's AG brews and dare people to tell which one is which. I'm sure that twang happens, but it's not just something that automatically comes with using LME. And I don't use nutrient in my brews.

 

[jalgayer]

Move to partial mashing and late extract addition. I had extract twang until I used the method in this article:

http://byo.com/feature/1536.html

That article is down... can anyone give a summary?

 

[GNBrews]

This is the article he was linking to:

http://***********/component/resource/article/511-countertop-partial-mashing

 

[Beernik]

This gets back to the FAN issue. Steeping and PM grains add more FAN to the wort.

 

[tomheff]

It is the metallic taste from the can and the canned extract is at least 6 months old before the store gets it. So, it is about 9 months before you brew with it. We sell extract in bulk (150,000 pounds of it per year at last count) and do not have any complaints about twang. We only order extract made in North America so it is really fresh.

Forrest

Yes there is a maillard reaction from age but there is also one with boiling the malt extract. It is not the can. It is the age of the can and care of the can.

 

[gunnyg]

VGDS:
See Bader's Boil The Hops; Not The Malt, No.3...

" The advantages to this method are that you can:

1) Make a beer with a lighter color.
2) Make a beer with higher levels of hop bitterness.
3) Minimize the carmelization of the malt extract sugars, giving you more appropriate flavors. Some brewers call this carmelization ¡§malt extract taste¡¨ "

More appropriate flavors = no/less "twang"

VGDS!

 

[CrazyP]

I haven't noticed the LME twang in my own brews yet, but when I think of twang I think of the taste difference between fruits canned in steel cans vs. plastic containers. Acidic fruits like mandarin oranges and pineapple in cans have especially strong metallic flavors. Is this same flavor I should watch out for or is it a different type of twang?

 

[TurboBrew]

I've made many extract beers and have not experienced this. If you search malt extract twang, the only sources you get are forums. I don't think it exists. I think it's just a flaw caused by something else that's being blamed on the malt extract.

 

[withak]

What does the only sources being forms have to do with anything? Anyway, reading those forums results, it sounds like it should more accurately be called "stale old extract twang" or "inexperienced brewer twang".

 

[gunnyg]

Re dictionary.com

Synonyms: acidity, aroma, astringency, bitterness, essence, extract, gusto, hotness, piquancy, pungency, relish, saltiness, sapidity, savor, seasoning, smack*, sourness, spiciness, sweetness, tang, tartness, taste, twang, vim, wallop, zest, zing

 

[TurboBrew]

What does the only sources being forms have to do with anything? Anyway, reading those forums results, it sounds like it should more accurately be called "stale old extract twang" or "inexperienced brewer twang".

Forums aren't legitimate reference. It's just word of mouth. Meaning no one has ever done any accredited research on "extract twang". I completely agree that old gross malt extract will male gross old tasting beer.

 

[gunnyg]

"accredited research "
****************

accredited by whom???

Hilarious!

 

[neovox]

It is the metallic taste from the can and the canned extract is at least 6 months old before the store gets it. So, it is about 9 months before you brew with it. We sell extract in bulk (150,000 pounds of it per year at last count) and do not have any complaints about twang. We only order extract made in North America so it is really fresh.
Forrest

I can't say that I've experienced the "twang", but this explanation makes sense to me. So, are you saying that regardless of age you always experience the "twang" in metal canned LME vs. that stored in say a plastic container?

 

[gunnyg]

Again and again and again:

Don't boil the gd LME/DME for NO twang--to bring yerself to not boil DME/LME, you may very well indeed have to force yerself to refrain from paying attention to "opinions," in print, videos, and on those pesky forums--that simple!


Fino!
*****

 

[TurboBrew]

"accredited research "
****************

accredited by whom???

Hilarious!

http://www.aahrpp.org/www.aspx - totally didn't expect an actual accreditation association to exist. Gotta love google.

But seriously, forums lack the crucial fact checking that a published research work has. It makes it very hard to believe that something I have never witnessed in my own beer is not a mistake being misinterpreted by another brewer.

 

[gunnyg]

http://www.aahrpp.org/www.aspx - totally didn't expect an actual accreditation association to exist. Gotta love google.

But seriously, forums lack the crucial fact checking that a published research work has. It makes it very hard to believe that something I have never witnessed in my own beer is not a mistake being misinterpreted by another brewer.

***********

Yep/agreed!

Just try not boiling the extract--cept for a small amount w/ some hops, then add it to the boiled water after you take it off the burner, stir in the bulk of the extract (dme/lme), add all other sugars/hops as Bader says, and NO further boiling!--that's the only way to prove it to yourself.

I started w/a MrBeer in 97/98 and not boiling came more natural to me, when I learned of this method.

Got away from it (brewing)for a few years and forgot about the no boil factor, and ruined a few batches boiling the extract--when I finally found Bader's webpage it dawned on me that I had previously gone to no-boil extract (years prior) and it solved my "twang" (so-called) problem. I then went back to no-boil extract. No problems since.

Amazing that something so simple and basic can elude and confound us so.

 

[AlterCow]

***********

Yep/agreed!

Just try not boiling the extract--cept for a small amount w/ some hops, then add it to the boiled water after you take it off the burner, stir in the bulk of the extract (dme/lme), add all other sugars/hops as Bader says, and NO further boiling!--that's the only way to prove it to yourself.

I started w/a MrBeer in 97/98 and not boiling came more natural to me, when I learned of this method.

Got away from it (brewing)for a few years and forgot about the no boil factor, and ruined a few batches boiling the extract--when I finally found Bader's webpage it dawned on me that I had previously gone to no-boil extract (years prior) and it solved my "twang" (so-called) problem. I then went back to no-boil extract. No problems since.

Amazing that something so simple and basic can elude and confound us so.

I am trying this with the next batch. Wow...I would have never of thought about this.

 

[Beernik]

Darryl Richman talks about it for 4.5 pages in Classic Beer Style Serirs: Bock. He also references a 1991 Journal of American Society of Brewing Chemists titled "Malt Extract: Relationship of Chemical Composition to Fermentability" where one of the conclusions is that some LME manufacturers appear to be diluting their LME with glucose syrup.

Addition of glucose syrup can do two things: increase the probability of off flavors because it ferments cidery and it reduces the nutrients yeast need for fermentation.