Spike Conical- observations and best practices

[Golddiggie]

I think I've seen pros and cons on both sides of this pitching before or after oxygenating. I've recently been siding on "pitch then oxygenate" with the idea that the yeast starts consuming the oxygen immediately. Wondering if you have more information on the benefit of oxygenating first.

The infusion hardware is on the plate chiller wort out port. So it happens as it goes into conical. The less time I have a port on the lid of the fermenter open, the better. After this weekend, I'll be using a yeast brink to get the yeast into the fermenter (through the bottom port).

 

[TheMadKing]

Here is another dry hop rousing video. I've added a spunding valve to the manifold and a 2" TC to ball lock gas post to the butterfly valve. I reduced the dry hop quantity to 6 ounces of cryo hops as I am still struggling with the Norcal yeast brink but that is getting better. Here is a quick hop rousing....

Hey Eric, I remember talking with you about this before but I can't find the posts.

What PSI are you using when you rouse dry hops and why are you using the spunding valve instead of just pulling the PRV to let Co2 in?

I just tried rousing my first NEIPA hop charge of 8oz and I ended up with it all just settling right back down again. I also had a good ball off hop paste sitting in the butterfly valve when I closed it and took the gas post fitting off.

Any tips for making this more effective?

 

[eric19312]

I don't use the sight glass anymore. Lost it to the need for more clearance above the Spike to fit my dry hopper.
I do still rouse the hops once or twice between 12 and 48 hours after adding. My gauges are all messed up so PSI is a guess. Probably about 10 PSI. Sometimes I use the spunding valve and sometimes just pull the PRV. Either way works but spunding valve is maybe a bit more gentle rousing.

 

[Golddiggie]

FYI, the SS Brew Tech spunding valves are available for order right now. I just placed an order for one, even though I don't currently have a fermenter for it. The prices are going up on October 1st. MoreBeer is saying they won't have any until December.

 

[TheMadKing]

Question for the hive mind

I ran out of bernzomatic oxygen last weekend (and what do you know I have fermentation issues without any oxygenation).

As it turns out, oxygen is extremely hard to find right now. Evidently industrial oxygen production has been geared toward medical grade oxygen so industrial oxygen is harder to get.

There are no bernzomatic tanks in any of the 4 home depots or Lowe's in my area, and I'm looking at $220 for a welding tank plus regulator plus flow meter.

So.. I have parted out a system for hooking up my carb stone to the 2" dump port on my CF5, and I can pump sanitary filtered air through my carb stone into the wort using an aquarium pump while I pump my wort in through the side racking port.

Has anyone tried this? Any idea how long I'll need to aerate with air rather than pure O2 to have sufficient oxygen for happy yeast?

 

[Golddiggie]

Quick Amazon search shows a O2 regulator, for connecting to the tank (CGA 540 connection) is available at ~$50 right now. Get the smallest welding O2 tank they offer (20 cubic foot IIRC) and be done with it. The regulators are the type with set increments for liters per minute. IME, FAR better than the little red bottles and crap regulator that connects to them.

 

[TLaffey]

So.. I have parted out a system for hooking up my carb stone to the 2" dump port on my CF5, and I can pump sanitary filtered air through my carb stone into the wort using an aquarium pump while I pump my wort in through the side racking port.

Has anyone tried this? Any idea how long I'll need to aerate with air rather than pure O2 to have sufficient oxygen for happy yeast?

OK, I'm on the side of not doing this and instead going for the O2 tank and regulator that Golddiggie suggests.

I haven't done it, but what I think I'd do is this: I'd want to know how much air per minute comes out of the carb stone. (Maybe time a balloon fill for 30sec or a minute? Got any kind of air flow gauge?) Then knowing that I use ~1L O2 for a CF5 and that air is ~1/5 O2, I'd work out how long to run the pump. Suppose the pump puts out .5L of air per minute through the carb stone. Since I want 5L of air, I'd run the pump for around 10 minutes as a first try.

 

[TheMadKing]

Quick Amazon search shows a O2 regulator, for connecting to the tank (CGA 540 connection) is available at ~$50 right now. Get the smallest welding O2 tank they offer (20 cubic foot IIRC) and be done with it. The regulators are the type with set increments for liters per minute. IME, FAR better than the little red bottles and crap regulator that connects to them.

Yep thanks I found that regulator as well, no problem spending $50 on a regulator at all

It's the $220 for an oxygen tank I'm balking at. It's also an additional $44 for a tank exchange at my nearest airgas

I'd much prefer to stick to the red bottles, since for this price, that's 3 years worth of them. and we've already discussed my reasons for that already, but it seems there's a supply chain shortage on them hence why I'm looking at other options.

 

[TheMadKing]

OK, I'm on the side of not doing this and instead going for the O2 tank and regulator that Golddiggie suggests.

I haven't done it, but what I think I'd do is this: I'd want to know how much air per minute comes out of the carb stone. (Maybe time a balloon fill for 30sec or a minute? Got any kind of air flow gauge?) Then knowing that I use ~1L O2 for a CF5 and that air is ~1/5 O2, I'd work out how long to run the pump. Suppose the pump puts out .5L of air per minute through the carb stone. Since I want 5L of air, I'd run the pump for around 10 minutes as a first try.

Thanks that's a pretty good solution for making it comparable to an O2 tank, up to a point, since air maxes out at 8ppm in solution. At the end of the day I'm more interested in knowing how many ppm oxygen will be absorbed rather than in liters of gas bubbled through solution

Knowing how many liters of gas you've bubbled through is fairly useless info for brewing honestly. The only thing it gives you is a repeatable data point for trial and error

Edit:

Thinking on this more, modeling your O2 absorption from bubbling through a stone is really complex and depends on a lot of factors:

Solubility constant of the oxygen
Total volume of beer
Original gravity
Temperature of your beer
Column height of the bubbles
Flow rate of oxygen
Surface area of your stone
Pore size of your stone
Altitude/pressure inside your fermenter

It also seems at first glance that oxygenation in a tee inline during transfer would be more effective/faster than bubbling through the fermenter

Sheesh.. No wonder everything is just guess and check

@doug293cz does this happen to be something you have ever modeled?

If there is a thread showing it, a quick search doesn't bring it up.

 

[Golddiggie]

IME, a 20cf tank will last you far longer than three years at homebrew level.

 

[TheMadKing]

IME, a 20cf tank will last you far longer than three years at homebrew level.

I'm certainly considering this option, I would just prefer not to pay that much for a brand new oxygen tank because the prices are inflated right now. I'll keep an eye out for a used one

And I would still like to know how much oxygen I'm actually adding to my beer by flowing 1L/min into it for 60 seconds. It's really a shot in the dark, so I need to research that. I'd also prefer to oxygenate inline if I'm going to go that route. That way I have even more control over the oxygenation level by varying the flow rate of the pump as well as the oxygen. I will need to buy some more Triclamp fittings from Bobby M too

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm certainly considering this option, I would just prefer not to pay that much for a brand new oxygen tank because the prices are inflated right now. I'll keep an eye out for a used one

And I would still like to know how much oxygen I'm actually adding to my beer by flowing 1L/min into it for 60 seconds. It's really a shot in the dark, so I need to research that. I'd also prefer to oxygenate inline if I'm going to go that route. That way I have even more control over the oxygenation level by varying the flow rate of the pump as well as the oxygen. I will need to buy some more Triclamp fittings from Bobby M too

I went down THAT rabbit hole not that long ago. Added the inline oxygen infusion setup to the wort out port of my plate chiller. It does make adding O2 a lot easier for the batch. Plus I don't need to open one of the ports on the lid of the fermenter to put the O2 wand into.

I did use the carbonating stone setup to infuse O2 into some cider on Saturday, before pitching the yeast. I suppose that's an alternate method to putting O2 into the wort. Before I carbonate the batch, I'll have to remove the carbonation setup, clean it well, and then sanitize it. The valve was closed when I was done adding O2, so anything in it now won't be going back into the batch.

The only reason I could do that was the regulator on my O2 bottle is fitted with a gas ball lock post. I had to make the adapter for that.

 

[TheMadKing]

I went down THAT rabbit hole not that long ago. Added the inline oxygen infusion setup to the wort out port of my plate chiller. It does make adding O2 a lot easier for the batch. Plus I don't need to open one of the ports on the lid of the fermenter to put the O2 wand into.

I did use the carbonating stone setup to infuse O2 into some cider on Saturday, before pitching the yeast. I suppose that's an alternate method to putting O2 into the wort. Before I carbonate the batch, I'll have to remove the carbonation setup, clean it well, and then sanitize it. The valve was closed when I was done adding O2, so anything in it now won't be going back into the batch.

The only reason I could do that was the regulator on my O2 bottle is fitted with a gas ball lock post. I had to make the adapter for that.

Oh I'll just put it in an instrument tee on the outlet of my kettle using the inline oxygenation kit that Bobby sells at brewhardware

I whirlpool through my counterflow chiller and chill the entire bulk wort down at once. I can do that to sanitize, and then start the oxygen flow when I pump into my fermenter

I don't use my carb stone ever, I usually just partially carbonate with fermentation co2 and then finish with a week or two in the keg under serving pressure.

 

[Golddiggie]

@TheMadKing I package into keg and cans direct from fermenter. So I DO use the carb stone with every batch. It allows me to get a batch fully packaged up faster, and easier, with less chances of something unwanted happening. I get between 6 and 8 gallons of finished beer at the end (I use 3 gallon kegs). My latest batch was a total of 7-1/2 gallons of finished beer packaged. That was actually done on Thursday after dinner. We were drinking it today. Actually I had people tasting it both Friday and Saturday as well. Fully carbonated on tap.

First batch of cider for 2021 is full active now. It went active at maybe 12 hours from pitch. Full active (or ape-nuts) in about 18 hours).

I put the towel around the base of the spunding valve for when it blows through. I usually remove it after a couple of days fermenting. New glycol chiller (Max4) is keeping the temperature where I want it to be for the yeast (71-72F, yeast range is 65-75).

 

[TheMadKing]

@TheMadKing I package into keg and cans direct from fermenter. So I DO use the carb stone with every batch. It allows me to get a batch fully packaged up faster, and easier, with less chances of something unwanted happening. I get between 6 and 8 gallons of finished beer at the end (I use 3 gallon kegs). My latest batch was a total of 7-1/2 gallons of finished beer packaged. That was actually done on Thursday after dinner. We were drinking it today. Actually I had people tasting it both Friday and Saturday as well. Fully carbonated on tap.

First batch of cider for 2021 is full active now. It went active at maybe 12 hours from pitch. Full active (or ape-nuts) in about 18 hours).
View attachment 744497

I put the towel around the base of the spunding valve for when it blows through. I usually remove it after a couple of days fermenting. New glycol chiller (Max4) is keeping the temperature where I want it to be for the yeast (71-72F, yeast range is 65-75).

Your beers will improve if you give them 2+ weeks of cold conditioning after packaging. Fully carbonated does not equal fully conditioned

 

[Golddiggie]

Your beers will improve if you give them 2+ weeks of cold conditioning after packaging. Fully carbonated does not equal fully conditioned

They get the time needed in fermenter first. I'm not rushing to carbonate as soon as fermentation is finished. My lowest ABV beer (3.0-3.1% ABV) typically goes at least two weeks in fermenter. Most go three weeks. I've also aged a couple batches on oak since switching to the conicals. Last one went about 3-1/2 weeks on the oak spirals. I think I'm going to start breaking those into smaller pieces to make cleanup easier. One of the two was sideways in the cone so I had to reach in from the top to remove.

 

[user 298779]

Ordered up the Mason jar yeast brink item from NorCal Brewing Solutions earlier. Went with the one to use a quart jar to infuse/inject the wort into the fermenter. I plan to use one of my 1/2 gallon jars for the harvest. At least initially until I see if I can use a quart size for that too.
https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions....lover-Quart-Canning-Jar-Yeast-Brink.html#2384
I won't have it in time for what I'm brewing this weekend (could be two batches). But I expect it to be here before the end of next week.

Another slick design from Jay. Have had these on wishlist but now that diggie has one I’m gonna have to place and order… Thanks Golddigge….

 

[user 298779]

Curious to know how many people are using the carbonation stone (from Spike) to carbonate their finished beer IN conical. I find it's a significant time saver and makes things easier when the batch is finished. Since I fill either a 2.5 or 3 gallon keg and then can the rest, directly from conical. No need to bring more than one keg into the keezer and get them carbonated there. It also means that the racking arm gets cleared of any trub/sediment/etc. at the same time. I tend to have the racking arm either horizontal, or shift it to a slightly upward position for this.

I'm also thinking about getting one of these racking arms to play with when I have an empty CF10.
https://conical-fermenter.com/Racking-Arm-for-Non-Jacketed-Fermenters.html?cat=267

I have several Spike racking arms and like them. I also clear racking arm using CO2 to clear any debris before kegging. One thing I read about tryin a non-spike racking arm in CF unitanks is clearance; some are too short and won’t rotate downwards. I believe it may have been NoCal that mentioned this and they have one(s) that work great.

Cheers

KBW.

 

[Golddiggie]

I picked up a different racking arm from Stout Tanks and am using it in one of the CF10's. Works well. I do wish that the o-rings on it (two o-rings that are in the ferrule) were a bit tighter fitting. One broke when I was putting it in the first time and the other wanted to get pushed out of the groove when I put it in again after cleaning the conical. I like the arm because it has a longer handle/indicating rod on it. Makes it easier for me to rotate it as needed. It's the same style that's used in the conicals from Brewers Hardware.

 

[Bohern]

Question for the hive mind

I ran out of bernzomatic oxygen last weekend (and what do you know I have fermentation issues without any oxygenation).

As it turns out, oxygen is extremely hard to find right now. Evidently industrial oxygen production has been geared toward medical grade oxygen so industrial oxygen is harder to get.

There are no bernzomatic tanks in any of the 4 home depots or Lowe's in my area, and I'm looking at $220 for a welding tank plus regulator plus flow meter.

So.. I have parted out a system for hooking up my carb stone to the 2" dump port on my CF5, and I can pump sanitary filtered air through my carb stone into the wort using an aquarium pump while I pump my wort in through the side racking port.

Has anyone tried this? Any idea how long I'll need to aerate with air rather than pure O2 to have sufficient oxygen for happy yeast?

I use Sidney Lee Welding supply and can get a 20cf tank and oxygen for $99. They have a location in Doraville that may be closer to you than my location on the west side.

 

[TheMadKing]

I use Sidney Lee Welding supply and can get a 20cf tank and oxygen for $99. They have a location in Doraville that may be closer to you than my location on the west side.

Sweet! That's waaay cheaper than I can find up here. That's well worth the hour drive

Thank you!

 

[Bohern]

Sweet! That's waaay cheaper than I can find up here. That's well worth the hour drive

Thank you!

Sure thing man, hope that helps.

 

[Golddiggie]

@TheMadKing I say out the gas supplier that wanted to charge more than double the current rate (for the rest of the country) so people can avoid them. Both large gas suppliers are far less than $220 for the 20cf bottle in my area.

Hell, a 60cf nitro/co2 mix (75/25) costs less than that. IIRC, nitrogen is a more expensive gas too.

 

[TheMadKing]

@TheMadKing I say out the gas supplier that wanted to charge more than double the current rate (for the rest of the country) so people can avoid them. Both large gas suppliers are far less than $220 for the 20cf bottle in my area.

Hell, a 60cf nitro/co2 mix (75/25) costs less than that. IIRC, nitrogen is a more expensive gas too.

Northern Tool, $170 for the empty tank, $35 for the gas fill, plus taxes

 

[Golddiggie]

Northern Tool, $170 for the empty tank, $35 for the gas fill, plus taxes

Taxes...
Another reason I enjoy living in NH (no state sales tax).

 

[Nate R]

Also, look for "food grade oxygen" at you local gas store (i like airgas but maybe praxxair, etc.)
I got a tank of food grade oxygen as in CA i cannot (legally) buy himan grade oxygen, although they have perfect little cylnander sizes.

 

[Golddiggie]

Only ever seen O2 for welding or 'medical' grade. Same O2 goes in, just different spec on the tanks. Lots of places can't give you medical grade without a valid Rx. Even if you get one tank filled, there's no guarantee you'll be able to swap it out later.

 

[Wables]

Guys, do yourself a favor and split a batch, half pitched with oxygen added and half stirred up with a mix-stir on a drill for a minute. I did a pretty intense study on this 15 years ago with taste testing and no longer use oxygen. I understand the concepts, but at a home brew level you have bigger things to worry about.

 

[Golddiggie]

Guys, do yourself a favor and split a batch, half pitched with oxygen added and half stirred up with a mix-stir on a drill for a minute. I did a pretty intense study on this 15 years ago with taste testing and no longer use oxygen. I understand the concepts, but at a home brew level you have bigger things to worry about.

Not viable with conical fermenters. Would require either removing the entire lid, or (at the very least) pulling the chill coil to do that. Plus I don't think my drill is clean enough for me to be comfortable using that above wort.

 

[user 298779]

Only ever seen O2 for welding or 'medical' grade. Same O2 goes in, just different spec on the tanks. Lots of places can't give you medical grade without a valid Rx. Even if you get one tank filled, there's no guarantee you'll be able to swap it out later.

Excellent info on response… I found that to be true here. If you wanna see the differences in the O2 purity by classification see attached….and draw your own conclusions. The tank ratings are key.

Cheers

KBW.