Spike Conical- observations and best practices

[RCope]

Did you explain to her that it was necessary to get the residual manufacturing oils off of the shiny stainless steel?

 

[Idaho Buzz]

Naturally, the truth is always the best excuse!

Good thing her favorite is in the allrounder now! It it turns out bad, it’s proof that I need a glycol chiller next.

 

[user 298779]

I'm struggling with closed pressure transfers on my CF5 (I apologize as I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the 67 pages of this topic, but I couldn't find it. Could be I'm a poor searcher) I've done them successfully on my SS Brewtech, but I never get a flow going on the CF5. First I thought it was dry hopping as my first failures were IPAs, but yesterday my Doppel Helles wouldn't go, so I had to do the old fashioned way of tub in the keg. I had cold crashed to 35 degrees for 2 days. I also noticed some trub in the racking port when cleaning, is the issue too much trub? How would I avoid that? Even if I dumped, some would settle in that port. Any ideas?

Hagmanngr, sorry to hear about your transfer issue yet I’m laughing at the same time. I had this happen last month...twice in a row...not happy. The good news is there are so many experienced brewers on HomeBrewTalk you can always get assistance.

As you’ve read there are several potential causes. First off, FWIW if you’re using a TC fitting with a 1/4” mfl (like one with Spike transfer kit), stop using it - it’s too restrictive unless your beer is truly sediment free. I use 1/2“ barbed TC fitting for transfer.

I was stymied last time because I did 2 transfers back to back (5 psi). The first from SS Brewtech chronical BME - no issues at all. Then the Spike CF - flow stopped after approx 1 pint. Racking arm horizontal. Troubleshooting I found the ball lock fitting poppet assembly was clogged (it wasn’t the one used for SSBT transfer). I removed the poppet from ball lock, problem solved. At 3 psi the keg filled quickly.

Replies from others on racking arm position are spot on IMHO. Ben and others at Spike will probably always know more about brew than I ever will (likewise for others inputting here) so sometimes you need to ask around but tweak your own system to fit your process.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

 

[k-daddy]

Racking arm arrived today! Your transfer system sounds awesome, wish I could try it but I'm filling 5 gallon kegs and my out post is about the height of the CF5 port, so no gravity for me. But I have a couple questions for curiosity sake:

1. Pressure fermentation (which Spike seems to discourage) are you using the Blichmann spunding valve to keep you at 6-8psi? And is that pressure sufficient to keep any liquid blowoff out of the valve and purge set up?

2. I've never used a spunding valve, but I am assuming that after you hit 6-8psi, it lets any CO2 out and it goes to your kegs, pressurizing both of them. Do you need a spunding valve on the 2nd keg, set at the same psi as the first valve? Otherwise couldn't they both get to pressure and the CO2 would have no where to go? (I wish I had paid attention in physics class)

I'd love to see a picture of that set up

Sorry, no picture. Yes, I have the Blichmann TC spunding valve and adjust to 6-8 psi. It’s spring loaded and you adjust by either tightening or loosening the blowoff portion of the valve. Initially I routed the blowoff tubing through sanitizer before going into the kegs to avoid any krausen infiltration, but seeing that the krausen line from a 5.5 gallon batch of 6.5% beer in my CF5 never has come near to the lid, I now go directly from the spunding valve to the first of two, 2.5 gallon kegs. The kegs are linked together, blowoff tubing to beer out post > gas post to beer out post of second keg > gas post of second keg to sanitizer. There is no pressure buildup in either keg as the co2 flows freely once past the spunding valve. I have the short extension legs on my conical and that gives me the clearance needed for the gravity transfer. I use gas tubing to connect everything which, for me, required 3/8” barbed keg connects to work (they are not the easiest to source). I initially used silicone tubing but have read that it is o2 permeable and not good for this application.

 

[eric19312]

I'm using the SS Brew Tech spunding valve. It's graduated in .2 bar increments (just use a reference chart to dial it in where you want). With the plastic cup for Starsan (cover the holes around the middle part) it's easy to see what's going on. I also have the Spike gas manifold setups on both conical fermenters. Which means I can also see what the actual pressure is inside the fermenter.

Excess CO2 goes out of the spunding valve as bubbles (easy to see).

Spike states that their gas manifold is NOT a spunding valve. This is due to the PRV being set to trip at 15psi (working pressure of the conical fermenters). As long as you set your spunding valve to release below that, you'll be fine.

I don't see any need/reason to try putting the CO2 from fermentation into a keg. Breweries that capture CO2 also scrub it before compressing it for use later. Doing that at the home level (or nano brewery) is more expensive than it's worth. It would take a LOT of batches, and years, to make the hardware purchase worth it.

I use a pressure transfer to fill my keg(s) via a closed system. Which means the gas post on the keg has a tube going into a container of Starsan, which acts as an airlock. It also allows me to see when I'm starting to get beer foam hitting the gas post dip tube. At that point, I stop the transfer. The last few batches I've not needed to use any CO2 from a bottle to do the transfer to keg. It might have needed some CO2 as I was filling cans, but it wasn't all that much. I'm using my 10# CO2 bottle for transfers these days. My 5# is used to purge the cans before filling them.

Are you transferring carbonated beer into the keg? If so aren't you having issues with foaming in the keg? I use a spunding valve on my gas port on the receiving keg to maintain pressure about 2 psi below the fermentor pressure. Makes for a slow transfer but I get 41 pounds into a keg without beer foam coming out the gas port.

 

[Golddiggie]

Are you transferring carbonated beer into the keg? If so aren't you having issues with foaming in the keg? I use a spunding valve on my gas port on the receiving keg to maintain pressure about 2 psi below the fermentor pressure. Makes for a slow transfer but I get 41 pounds into a keg without beer foam coming out the gas port.

Fully carbonated beer is moved from the CF10 into my serving kegs and into cans (using a Tapcooler filler). I'm getting full amounts of beer into the keg as well. Since the beer is chilled, I can typically watch the fill level from the outside. When it hits the 'full' level line I typically stop. I'm also getting some foam out of the hose on the gas port, but not a ton.

I've done this for more than a few batches to date with solid results. With using just the QD and line, into Starsan, I have less to cleanup at the end of the fill. It's easy to clean the gas QD once done.

 

[eric19312]

Fully carbonated beer is moved from the CF10 into my serving kegs and into cans (using a Tapcooler filler). I'm getting full amounts of beer into the keg as well. Since the beer is chilled, I can typically watch the fill level from the outside. When it hits the 'full' level line I typically stop. I'm also getting some foam out of the hose on the gas port, but not a ton.

I've done this for more than a few batches to date with solid results. With using just the QD and line, into Starsan, I have less to cleanup at the end of the fill. It's easy to clean the gas QD once done.

What temp and pressure is the beer in the fermentor? Do you have a scale to weigh the keg before and after filling? Is the receiving keg chilled somehow?

I'm only doubting here because I'm thinking I could save a lot of time if I don't really need that spunding valve. I'd be pushing beer carbonated to 10-12 psi at 35F into a room temperature keg. Hmm sorta like filling a glass from a tap...how long is your transfer line?

 

[Golddiggie]

Last two batches I've carbonated at 38F with the regulator set to 16psi (4psi wetting pressure for the carb stone, so 12psi going into the beer). I don't chill the keg, or use a scale. I watch both the condensation on the side and what's coming out of the gas port (tube into Starsan).

Current jumper from fermenter (racking arm) to keg is six foot range. Working very well so far. I'm using 3/16" ID [Ultra Barrier Silver) line. Since I have more of that on hand, I could always make the jumper longer (if needed).

Once the keg is filled, it goes into my keezer (40-41F) and onto the gas feed for the type. Ales go onto CO2, stouts/porters (or whatever else I decide) goes onto the nitro mix feed. Last keg I filled I pulled a glass from a few hours later. Damned perfect pour.

 

[Idaho Buzz]

Spike is out of their castor sets and my search didn’t find the bolt size on their castors…

Before I dismantle a foot and run down to the local big box store to size it so I can order on line…

Does anyone already have the bolt size for the castors?

 

[Golddiggie]

Spike is out of their castor sets and my search didn’t find the bolt size on their castors…

Before I dismantle a foot and run down to the local big box store to size it so I can order on line…

Does anyone already have the bolt size for the castors?

Confirmed 3/8-16. I just checked one of the feet I didn't use with my two CF10's.

 

[Golddiggie]

Started carbonating the old ale in one of my CF10 fermenters this morning. Yes, the carb stone is a bit phallic, but...

It's chilled to 36F for carbonating this batch. I'll let it run until at least tomorrow afternoon and pull a test sample (through the pigtail coil sampling valve setup). Since Spike calls out "less than 24 hours" for the carb stone to do it's job, I'll give it at least that before pulling the sample.

 

[CDS]

I have a Spike CF10 that I used for a ton of ales but never lager. Usually doing 5 gallon batches, and I have never had a problem aerating the wort just by a lot of splashing as I pump it in through the 4" top port, but now that I'm planning on brewing my first lager I want to make sure the yeast is set up for the best possible start.
Can someone explain the wort aeration process for a Spike Conical like I was 5 years old? What specific equipment I'll need, and the process? The only accessories I have currently are for doing closed pressure transfers (gas manifold, etc). Thanks a lot!

 

[Golddiggie]

I use this to oxygenate my wort as it goes into the conical via the bottom (2" TC) port. It's attached to the wort out side of my plate chiller. I attached a QD on the gas manifold post with the length of tubing going into a container of sanitizer (Starsan) to make it a closed transfer. I've done this since getting the inline oxygenation kit. All you need is to get a 2" TC fitting to the type of QD you use. I'm using the ball lock style, so it was easy to get the fitting. If you wanted, you could get a barb fitting for it and just have the line fixed to the part that goes onto the conical lower port (that just sound so wrong).

Keep in mind, "splashing" will not get you more than 8ppm of O2 into your wort. Simply not possible to get more. With pure O2 (which I use) you can get significantly more oxygen into the wort. Not to mention how it's rather easy to do it this way. And you don't have the fermenter open for things to drop in. Once my fermenter is sanitized, it's only opened up (1.5" TC port on the lid) for the yeast addition. That's only until I get a yeast brink. Once I have that, it will be fully sealed post sanitization until getting cleaned post packaging.

 

[TheMadKing]

When I was getting ready to place my two CF10 fermenters order, I worked with one of the rep's at Spike to make sure I had what I needed. That included the racking arm in each fermenter. I also got the document that shows how much it leaves behind.

IIRC, I spent about $2200 on the two fermenters fully setup. I only ordered one carbonating stone since I didn't expect to need to carbonate what's in both fermenters at the same time. Small savings. At least everything (over $100) ships free.

FWIW, I never use my carb stone at all. I just swap out the blowoff tube for the pressure relief/gauge/gas post fitting and put a spunding valve on there near the end of Fermentation. Get some natural carbonation and no dealing with cleaning that stone!

You're going to love your new fermenters though

 

[TheMadKing]

I have a Spike CF10 that I used for a ton of ales but never lager. Usually doing 5 gallon batches, and I have never had a problem aerating the wort just by a lot of splashing as I pump it in through the 4" top port, but now that I'm planning on brewing my first lager I want to make sure the yeast is set up for the best possible start.
Can someone explain the wort aeration process for a Spike Conical like I was 5 years old? What specific equipment I'll need, and the process? The only accessories I have currently are for doing closed pressure transfers (gas manifold, etc). Thanks a lot!

Like you were five:

-Buy cheap red bernzomatic oxygen tank from home depot
-buy a regulator for it
-attach a piece of tubing to the regulator
-buy a small carbonation stone
-fit the carbonation stone to the other end of the tubing
-while you're transferring wort into the fermenter, soak the tubing and oxygen stone in star san for a good long time
-pitch your yeast
-drop the tubing in through either of the two ports in the lid until you hear a splashy sound
-turn the knob on your regulator until you hear a bubbly sound
-count to 15 Mississippi
-turn off the gas
-pull the tube and stone out of your wort
-close up your fermenter and wash your tube and stone immediately

Done

 

[CDS]

Like you were five:

-Buy cheap red bernzomatic oxygen tank from home depot
-buy a regulator for it
-attach a piece of tubing to the regulator
-buy a small carbonation stone
-fit the carbonation stone to the other end of the tubing
-while you're transferring wort into the fermenter, soak the tubing and oxygen stone in star san for a good long time
-pitch your yeast
-drop the tubing in through either of the two ports in the lid until you hear a splashy sound
-turn the knob on your regulator until you hear a bubbly sound
-count to 15 Mississippi
-turn off the gas
-pull the tube and stone out of your wort
-close up your fermenter and wash your tube and stone immediately

Done

Perfect. Especially the "splashy sound"! Thanks.

 

[TheMadKing]

Perfect. Especially the "splashy sound"! Thanks.

In seriousness though, this has gotten me through my last 30 or so batches in my CF5 without any issues.

I'll admit that I'm fairly lax in cleaning my stone compared to some. I just soak it in star san before and after use and burp a little oxygen through it in the star san. You'll see recommendations to boil it before every use or soak it in lye after every use etc, so ymmv. I've never gotten an infected batch from it so until that happens I'm going to keep on trucking

 

[Golddiggie]

Screw the Benzomatic type tanks and regulators with zero regulation capabilities. Get an oxygen tank from your local welding supply store and a regulator that is in Lpm (liters per minute). That will actually be 100000x better. You won't be wasting the little red oxygen bottles left and right.

Also, infuse oxygen BEFORE you pitch the yeast. Not after.

There are companies selling the oxygen wands (stone on a stainless wand). Those are typically 3/16" OD tubes. Same as the ID of your standard liquid tubing when kegging. So easy as all hell to get (by the foot at your LHBS).

With my setup, I set the infusion rate depending on the recipe/OG. Since I get my wort chilled in as little as five minutes (for ~8.5-9 gallons going right into the conical) it's not running for long. With the shutoff on the setup I have, I can stage everything and then simply open that valve as the wort begins to flow out the chiller. I turn it off when done, before disconnecting from the O2 bottle (I made a QD post adapter for my regulator).

Sure, you COULD do it the cheap and dirty way. I just don't see the point for that.

 

[CDS]

Great info guys. Thanks for the replies!

 

[Golddiggie]

FWIW, I never use my carb stone at all. I just swap out the blowoff tube for the pressure relief/gauge/gas post fitting and put a spunding valve on there near the end of Fermentation. Get some natural carbonation and no dealing with cleaning that stone!

You're going to love your new fermenters though

I use the carb stone on every batch. Even fermenting under pressure. I don't use blowoff tubes either. Even with the residual CO2 volumes in the beer, it still needs CO2 to carbonate fully. With the carbonation stone I can get the batch fully carbonated in 2-3 days. Which means, as soon as the keg is in the keezer it can go on tap and glasses poured. I also can off conical, which also makes things a lot easier. I pull 2.5-3 gallons into keg, the rest gets canned.

I also set the fermenting pressure depending on the recipe and if I want esters from the yeast or not. If I do, I set the pressure level low. If not, I set it higher. I'm also not swapping out ports/fittings in the conical lid once the yeast goes in. Or at least not unless I'm doing a dry hop addition (CO2 purged dry hopping). Even then, the butterfly valve is installed right after the yeast goes in, and capped. So fully sealed (and sanitized). I actually dry hopped my English bitter earlier tonight, after harvesting the yeast from it.

With the carbonating (fully) in just a couple/few days (in fermenter) my grain to glass time is shortened. I also don't need to do the 'rapid forced carbonate' dance. Or change out the corny keg lid for one of the carbonating lids available (did that for a few batches before getting the conicals).

 

[TheMadKing]

Screw the Benzomatic type tanks and regulators with zero regulation capabilities. Get an oxygen tank from your local welding supply store and a regulator that is in Lpm (liters per minute). That will actually be 100000x better. You won't be wasting the little red oxygen bottles left and right.

Also, infuse oxygen BEFORE you pitch the yeast. Not after.

There are companies selling the oxygen wands (stone on a stainless wand). Those are typically 3/16" OD tubes. Same as the ID of your standard liquid tubing when kegging. So easy as all hell to get (by the foot at your LHBS).

With my setup, I set the infusion rate depending on the recipe/OG. Since I get my wort chilled in as little as five minutes (for ~8.5-9 gallons going right into the conical) it's not running for long. With the shutoff on the setup I have, I can stage everything and then simply open that valve as the wort begins to flow out the chiller. I turn it off when done, before disconnecting from the O2 bottle (I made a QD post adapter for my regulator).

Sure, you COULD do it the cheap and dirty way. I just don't see the point for that.

And I don't see the point of all that complexity

I would challenge you to be able to tell the difference in quality between two beers where one was fermented with whammadine exactly tuned oxygen flow rates to 10ppm from a welding shop vs hitting it for 15-20 seconds from a bernzomatic tank and hitting somewhere between 8-11ppm. My fermentations are healthy and take off within 3-4 hours.

You can make good beer without pure O2 at all, so it's simply not worth the effort to make it perfect when there's such a wide range of "success" criteria.

Infuse before or immediately after, there's no difference really the yeast is going to use it.

As for wasting oxygen bottles, I have used 4 in the last 1.5 years. Which equals $50.. So that's pretty darn cheap

But hey, we're homebrewers. I make beer for $20 a bottle when I could just buy it for $2/bottle. Overcomplicated is the whole point!

 

[TheMadKing]

I use the carb stone on every batch. Even fermenting under pressure. I don't use blowoff tubes either. Even with the residual CO2 volumes in the beer, it still needs CO2 to carbonate fully. With the carbonation stone I can get the batch fully carbonated in 2-3 days. Which means, as soon as the keg is in the keezer it can go on tap and glasses poured. I also can off conical, which also makes things a lot easier. I pull 2.5-3 gallons into keg, the rest gets canned.

I also set the fermenting pressure depending on the recipe and if I want esters from the yeast or not. If I do, I set the pressure level low. If not, I set it higher. I'm also not swapping out ports/fittings in the conical lid once the yeast goes in. Or at least not unless I'm doing a dry hop addition (CO2 purged dry hopping). Even then, the butterfly valve is installed right after the yeast goes in, and capped. So fully sealed (and sanitized). I actually dry hopped my English bitter earlier tonight, after harvesting the yeast from it.

With the carbonating (fully) in just a couple/few days (in fermenter) my grain to glass time is shortened. I also don't need to do the 'rapid forced carbonate' dance. Or change out the corny keg lid for one of the carbonating lids available (did that for a few batches before getting the conicals).

The canning from fermenter makes perfect sense.

I've never understood the benefit of rapid carbonation for kegs though since I've always noticed that the flavor of my beer needs a few weeks of cold conditioning to really hit the peak. I actually use the lack of carbonation as a deterrent to keep myself from drinking my beer until it's had a little conditioning time lol

Agree that quick carbing comes with dangers. I prefer to just get about halfway there with fermentation CO2 and then set it and forget it in my keezer. By the time it's carbonated, it's dropped mostly clear and tastes ready to go!

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm sub $50 for getting at least 7 gallons into keg and can for almost all my recipes.

With what I'm doing, it's more of a closed system where I'm reducing infection/contamination risks. Plus, it's actually easier on me. I've had the same O2 bottle for over 45 batches. It still shows "full". Getting the bottle swapped when its' time will be easy. I expect to get at least 100 batches out of the small (20 cubic foot) O2 bottle I'm using.

When I was using kegmenters, I used the stone on the stainless wand on the end of beer line to the regulator. It worked, but there was bending involved and such (my back doesn't like that often enough). Now, I just watch the wort flow into conical and close valves (and turn off the pump) when it's done.

BTW, Spike's recommended method of filling the conicals IS from the bottom port.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm sub $50 for getting at least 7 gallons into keg and can for almost all my recipes.

With what I'm doing, it's more of a closed system where I'm reducing infection/contamination risks. Plus, it's actually easier on me. I've had the same O2 bottle for over 45 batches. It still shows "full". Getting the bottle swapped when its' time will be easy. I expect to get at least 100 batches out of the small (20 cubic foot) O2 bottle I'm using.

When I was using kegmenters, I used the stone on the stainless wand on the end of beer line to the regulator. It worked, but there was bending involved and such (my back doesn't like that often enough). Now, I just watch the wort flow into conical and close valves (and turn off the pump) when it's done.

BTW, Spike's recommended method of filling the conicals IS from the bottom port.

Do what works brother!

I actually fill mine through the racking arm like a weirdo

 

[Golddiggie]

The canning from fermenter makes perfect sense.

I've never understood the benefit of rapid carbonation for kegs though since I've always noticed that the flavor of my beer needs a few weeks of cold conditioning to really hit the peak. I actually use the lack of carbonation as a deterrent to keep myself from drinking my beer until it's had a little conditioning time lol

Agree that quick carbing comes with dangers. I prefer to just get about halfway there with fermentation CO2 and then set it and forget it in my keezer. By the time it's carbonated, it's dropped mostly clear and tastes ready to go!

With temperature control (glycol chiller) I'm getting great beers in shorter time frames than before I did that. Chilling either fermenter to what it needs is also a huge win for me. I ferment my main yeast (Wyeast 1318) at 70F and then chill to harvest yeast. Then chill more to carbonate. I can pull a sample from the conical to check both flavor and carbonation levels.

I'm using a 10# CO2 bottle for the carbonating of the batches. The 5# is for purging cans and any small additions needed (such as when moving the finished beer from conical). I used the 5# to do the O2 purged hop drop earlier. I do need to get the paintball CO2 bottle filled and get another one for when I take a keg remotely. Or for other items where a quick hit of CO2 is all I need.

 

[TheMadKing]

With temperature control (glycol chiller) I'm getting great beers in shorter time frames than before I did that. Chilling either fermenter to what it needs is also a huge win for me. I ferment my main yeast (Wyeast 1318) at 70F and then chill to harvest yeast. Then chill more to carbonate. I can pull a sample from the conical to check both flavor and carbonation levels.

I'm using a 10# CO2 bottle for the carbonating of the batches. The 5# is for purging cans and any small additions needed (such as when moving the finished beer from conical). I used the 5# to do the O2 purged hop drop earlier. I do need to get the paintball CO2 bottle filled and get another one for when I take a keg remotely. Or for other items where a quick hit of CO2 is all I need.

I have a similar process and glycol as well and I agree that it definitely helps to regulate your process better, especially with lagers.

we just had a baby in this household though, so I'm basically drinking solo these days, so I'm in no hurry for anything. It takes me 2-3 months to kick a keg by myself and I have a 4 tap keezer full, plus two lagering fridges. As long as I have something in my pipeline and I'm prepared for any competitions on time, I'm happy

btw 70 seems warm for 1318, I usually ferment my English ales at 65-67 with it and only warm to 70 at the end for cleanup. Are you getting any banana flavor at that temp?

 

[Golddiggie]

I have a similar process and glycol as well and I agree that it definitely helps to regulate your process better, especially with lagers.

we just had a baby in this household though, so I'm basically drinking solo these days, so I'm in no hurry for anything. It takes me 2-3 months to kick a keg by myself and I have a 4 tap keezer full, plus two lagering fridges. As long as I have something in my pipeline and I'm prepared for any competitions on time, I'm happy

btw 70 seems warm for 1318, I usually ferment my English ales at 65-67 with it and only warm to 70 at the end for cleanup. Are you getting any banana flavor at that temp?

Wyeast 1318 has a listed temperature range of 64-74F. I'm letting it go just over the half way mark. It's actually doing very well for me this way. At most, I get some esters when I reduce the pressure of the fermentation. Otherwise, it's just rocks. I actually have a couple of recipes where I want that addition. So I let it ferment at about 5psi. The other recipes are typically at 10-12psi (where I don't want the esters).
I need to see about reviving some of the 1881-PC I have in the freezer. If it works out, I'll use it for the next batches of either my IPA or bitter. I'll probably let that ferment at about 65F (listed range is 60-70F). I keep hoping they'll release that yeast in one of the private collection rounds, but it goes years between when it's available.

 

[Golddiggie]

Ordered up the Mason jar yeast brink item from NorCal Brewing Solutions earlier. Went with the one to use a quart jar to infuse/inject the wort into the fermenter. I plan to use one of my 1/2 gallon jars for the harvest. At least initially until I see if I can use a quart size for that too.
https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions....lover-Quart-Canning-Jar-Yeast-Brink.html#2384
I won't have it in time for what I'm brewing this weekend (could be two batches). But I expect it to be here before the end of next week.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

^This^
I need.

 

[TLaffey]

Also, infuse oxygen BEFORE you pitch the yeast. Not after.

I think I've seen pros and cons on both sides of this pitching before or after oxygenating. I've recently been siding on "pitch then oxygenate" with the idea that the yeast starts consuming the oxygen immediately. Wondering if you have more information on the benefit of oxygenating first.