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JMAK

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I am planning on using a Wyeast 3944 smack pack for Midwest's Grand Cru extract kit. The box gives a projected OG of 1.063. Is one 4.25 oz smack pack enough.

The smack pack is a yeast option that can be selected with the kit, but Wyeast's site recommends up to three smack packs for high gravity beers?

Is one smack pack enough? This was a pricey kit and I do not want to screw it up.

Thanks a bunch!
 
I am planning on using a Wyeast 3944 smack pack for Midwest's Grand Cru extract kit. The box gives a projected OG of 1.063. Is one 4.25 oz smack pack enough.

The smack pack is a yeast option that can be selected with the kit, but Wyeast's site recommends up to three smack packs for high gravity beers?

Is one smack pack enough? This was a pricey kit and I do not want to screw it up.

Thanks a bunch!

When using liquid yeast, it is generally best to either use multiple packs, or use a starter to increase the cell count. There are people who just pitch a single pack in a higher gravity beer and don't have any problems, but a cell count that is too low can lead to stressed yeast and off flavors. There are pitching rate calculators online that you can use to see how many cells are estimated to be in the pack you have, and what kind of starter you would need to get into the ideal pitching rate range.
 
I'm brand new to home brewing and I have not made a yeast starter yet.

The Grand Cru kit came with some DME. Can I rob some of what came with the kit to make a starter? I don't have any extra, just what came with the kit.

If I do rob some to make a starter will it change the characteristics of the beer?
 
I'm brand new to home brewing and I have not made a yeast starter yet.

The Grand Cru kit came with some DME. Can I rob some of what came with the kit to make a starter? I don't have any extra, just what came with the kit.

If I do rob some to make a starter will it change the characteristics of the beer?

Yes, cutting the DME will change the beer character, exactly how much depends on a lot of factors. It is best to just buy some inexpensive DME or LME for starter making, so you aren't changing your kit composition. Just make sure what you get for starters is not pre-hopped, since you can end up with skunked beer if your starter has hops in it and is exposed to light, then added to the whole batch.
 
I pitch one smack pack in HG beers...BUT I use Yeast Nutrient and haven't had any problems. If I do not use the nutrient then I usually pitch two.
 
In my limited knowledge of brewing (I'm learning like you) it seems to be important to vitalize your liquid yeast by doing a starter. I wanted to do it as simply as possible.... albeit this may not be the least expensive way:

I bought a yeast starter kit containing a 2L flask and a 4 pack of Fast Pitch starter which is essentially a wort for the yeast to revitalize in. I also bought a StirStarter stirring plate to stir and oxygenate the yeast for a couple of days.

Ok....yes, I spent $80 on this gear. But, one failed batch will cost you half or more of that for a kit and yeast that may fail you. I'd at least give it some thought.
 
Grand cru sounds like a big beer- making a starter is going to save you a lot of potential heartache wondering if the beer will finish out or not.
 
I agree that preventing one ruined batch is worth the price of getting a starter kit, I will be investing in this soon as well but for now, my previous post stands true.
 
I agree that preventing one ruined batch is worth the price of getting a starter kit, I will be investing in this soon as well but for now, my previous post stands true.

"Getting" a starter kit means: you need a 1 gallon jug and some DME. At least for now. Yeah, a stir plate and a 2 or 5 liter flask is great, but you can get away with shaking/swirling the jug as many times a day as you can.

Oh, and get a bottle of Fermcap-S. 1 drop per gallon prevents foam overs, losing half your yeast to the counter overnight.
 
Your smack pack is intended for 5 gallon batches up to 1.060. Your batch is 1.063, just pitch it.

Hope you like banana-flavoured nail polish remover!

Maybe if the yeast was brand-spankin' new, fresh out of the factory, and everything else about the beer was managed perfectly (ample oxygentation but not too much, perfect temperature control), you might get a drinkable beer by direct-pitching that smack-pack. But most pitching rate calculators would tell you that even at 100% viability (which the OP would almost certainly not have), that'd be a considerable under pitch.

Always make starters with liquid yeast. It's not that hard, and it confirms you've got sufficient healthy, hungry yeast to ensure that you're not wasting a day brewing a beer that'll turn out to be a dumper.

EDIT: Just noticed that Wyeast tends to favour pitching rates about half what Mr. Malty (Jamil Zainascheff, one of the co-authors of the book "Yeast") recommends. Jamil cites George Fix's book, "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques," in recommending a pitching rate of about 0.75 million cells per milliliter of wort per degree Plato for ales, and double that for lagers. Using that guideline would work out to around 12 million cells/mL for ale wort with an OG of 1.060, whereas Wyeast's website only recommends 6 million cells for the same wort. I'd rather overpitch than underpitch, so I go with Jamil's numbers.

Here's my rule of thumb: 4 billion cells per degree of OG per 5 gallon batch of ale. Double that for lagers.

Using that guideline, a 5 gallon batch of 1.060 ale wort would require 240 billion cells, or more than double what you'd get from a single smack-pack, even in the best-case scenario. So you can pitch 2 (or better yet, 3) smack-packs, or make an appropriately-sized starter. Or just pitch one pack and come back in 6 weeks asking us why your beer tastes so awful.
 
Yeah, all my beers taste like nail polish. Don't yours? :)
You're response is that your method is the only correct way, and even the yeast producer is wrong? And any variation tastes horrible? You shouldn't waste time posting here, you should be working at Wyeast, just to save us all from their ineptitude.
Please.
 
You're response is that your method is the only correct way

Of course not, there are many ways to skin this cat. You can make a single large starter, a series of "stepping up" starters, pitch multiple smack-packs, re-pitch a harvested yeast cake, use rehydrated dry yeast, a combination of multiple tactics... I'm merely suggesting what I would consider the most straightforward way to produce the best beer, according to the research done by people much smarter than me, combined with my own personal experience employing that knowledge in brewing over 100 batches of beer and tasting the results.

and even the yeast producer is wrong?

Well, White Labs is another yeast producer, and their founder, Chris White, literally wrote the book on yeast (co-wrote, actually, with Jamil Zainasheff, the book is called simply "Yeast"). That's my source for the recommended pitch rate of 0.75 to 1.5 million cells per mL per degree Plato, which as I showed, is roughly double what Wyeast recommends.

So if one yeast producer (Wyeast) says to pitch x, and another yeast producer (White Labs) says to pitch 2x, then by definition, doesn't one of the have to be wrong? I'm going to go with the one that wrote the book on yeast. And in my experience, overpitching produces far fewer off flavours than underpitching, so I'd rather pitch too much yeast than not enough.

And any variation tastes horrible?

Not necessarily, but if the research suggests it could taste even better with a more ambitious pitching rate, why wouldn't you do it?

You shouldn't waste time posting here, you should be working at Wyeast, just to save us all from their ineptitude.
Please.

Now now, there's no need for that. We're all just trying to make the best beer here.
 
"Hope you like banana-flavoured nail polish remover!"
"Now now, there's no need for that. We're all just trying to make the best beer here."

The first remark rather set me off. I read it as snide, and presumptuous. If I misinterpreted your response, I apologize.
I haven't made 100 batches, only about 50. But I've never used a starter, and my beers are usually quite successful. I've had a few infected, and of course, when I started out, my brewing needed work. But I've scored in the high 30s at competition, and just yesterday dropped off a bottle of beer the owner local craft beer bar, at his request. Some of my brews have been bigger beers, a Belgian Strong and a Dubbel were both direct pitched. No one has ever tasted nail polish or banana in my brews. I hardly think that following the manufacturers recommendation is radical, or even risky. Many brewers have experimented with direct pitching, I believe Brulosopher has an article on it.
I stand by my advice, I don't think I'm alone. I agree that we're all trying to help each other make better beer.
:cheers:
 
I typically don't. I use smack packs for HG beers b/c they have the nutrient in them and are designed to be used in the absence of a starter. On a regular basis I just use dry.

I've never heard that smack packs are designed to be used in lieu of a starter. Can you give more info, or provide a link for me to find out more? Thanks!
 
I've never heard that smack packs are designed to be used in lieu of a starter. Can you give more info, or provide a link for me to find out more? Thanks!

This was something that my LHBS associate told me would work...I've only tried it once and it seemed to do the trick...did I get lucky?
 
The first remark rather set me off. I read it as snide, and presumptuous. If I misinterpreted your response, I apologize.

It was tongue-in-cheek, and borne of experience. I've produced beers with underpitched yeast, and the resulting stress caused them to produce an excess of isoamyl acetate (banana flavour) and fusel alcohols (acetone, tastes like nail polish remover smells). I was implying that by underpitching, you're increasing your risk of experiencing similar off-flavours in your own beer.
 
Good enough. One of the failings of forums is that it is hard to tell when someone is kidding. I've unintentionally caused a ruckus before.
Want an underpitched fuselly banana ale? :D
(That's a joke, son)
 
It was tongue-in-cheek, and borne of experience. I've produced beers with underpitched yeast, and the resulting stress caused them to produce an excess of isoamyl acetate (banana flavour) and fusel alcohols (acetone, tastes like nail polish remover smells). I was implying that by underpitching, you're increasing your risk of experiencing similar off-flavours in your own beer.

Say if this happens whats the best thing to do, can you age it out...cold condition or anything to help reduce the off flavors?
 
This was something that my LHBS associate told me would work...I've only tried it once and it seemed to do the trick...did I get lucky?

"Lucky"? Maybe, maybe not. In general, the yeast manufacturer's will say something like "good for up to 5 gallons of wort, up to an OG of 1.060" but that is not exactly always the case. If the yeast is super fresh, and handled perfectly (no hot trucks or warm storage), it is usually enough. And even if underpitched, it'll probably be ok.

Even Wyeast's own website makes no claim that their smack pack is a "starter" or is designed to be used as one, that's why I wondered where your info came from. It's possible that there are resources that would differ, and I had never heard of one that claimed opposite. But I certainly am no scientist and have to rely on others' work.

This is copy/pasted from Wyeast's site:
100 Billion Yeast Cells - The Direct Pitch ACTIVATOR™ contains Pure Liquid Yeast plus an internal nutrient packet. This Wyeast Smack-pack™ system allows yeast metabolism to begin prior to inoculation as well as providing proof of yeast health. Our ACTIVATOR™ is designed to inoculate 5 gallons of ale wort below OG 1.060 with the same pitch rates we recommend for professional brewers.
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=16
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm
 
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