Schwarzbier dark malt percentage?

[trapae]

Getting ready to do my first Schwarzbier and formulating the recipe. Just wondering what percent dark malt most people use in this type of recipe? In general I use a little less than 10% dark malt for stouts and porters but this style is new to me. Thanks for the help.

 

[Miraculix]

Getting ready to do my first Schwarzbier and formulating the recipe. Just wondering what percent dark malt most people use in this type of recipe? In general I use a little less than 10% dark malt for stouts and porters but this style is new to me. Thanks for the help.

Less than for stouts. I'd use 4-6% of carafa spezial 2. Dehusked dark malts like carafa spezial work best in Schwarzbier, if you ask me.

 

[Steveruch]

It depends on how dark and/or roasty you want it.

 

[AlexKay]

I split 5-10% between Carafa special (be sure to get the special; the regular Carafa has husks) and chocolate rye. Because chocolate rye is good.

 

[Spartan1979]

I use 5% Blackprinz malt in mine.

 

[Deadalus]

I've used 5.1% Carafa II and 1.3% chocolate malt in my recipe.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

This is my grain build for mine. It's dark enough that you can look at the sun through a pint (don't try this at home), but not too roasty or burnt. It's really similar to Shiner's Black Lager.

7 lb Pilsen
2 lb Munich
.5 lb Caramunich
.75 lb Debittered black malt
4 oz Black patent

 

[Protos]

When I was making a research for brewing my first Schwarzbier I found some [incomplete] recipe data provided by Michael Jackson for Köstrizer, a prototypical East-German Schwarzbier: 50% Pale Malt, 43% Dark Muhich Malt, 7% Roasted Malt.
I repeated this grist and the beer came out very good (it would be even better if I treated my water accordingly but I didn't treat my water yet back then).
There are plenty other recipes on the web but this one I think is the starting point for all the rest.

 

[jdauria]

No more 4-5% in my opinion, roast should be there, but not overpower the toasty/bready flavors from Munich malt. Someone told me once to think of a Schwarzbier as a Pilsner with enough dark malt to get the right color Saying that, I went just over in the one I made recently with 5.4%.

 

[Miraculix]

This is my grain build for mine. It's dark enough that you can look at the sun through a pint (don't try this at home), but not too roasty or burnt. It's really similar to Shiner's Black Lager.

7 lb Pilsen
2 lb Munich
.5 lb Caramunich
.75 lb Debittered black malt
4 oz Black patent

I like it, except for the crystal. This does not belong in a beer intended to be a classic German one. I also do not get why there should be two black malts, does not really make sense, both would be fine on their own in the right amount.

 

[Miraculix]

When I was making a research for brewing my first Schwarzbier I found some [incomplete] recipe data provided by Michael Jackson for Köstrizer, a prototypical East-German Schwarzbier: 50% Pale Malt, 43% Dark Muhich Malt, 7% Roasted Malt.
I repeated this grist and the beer came out very good (it would be even better if I treated my water accordingly but I didn't treat my water yet back then).
There are plenty other recipes on the web but this one I think is the starting point for all the rest.

That sounds like the right approach. I'd cut down the roasted malt by 1-2% but I guess this is more of a personal preference thing.

 

[Beermeister32]

This was so good even my office manager lady liked it:

1.046 OG (however this batch came in at 1.055)
1.007 FG
5.13 ABV
22.37 IBU
29.5 SRM
7.0 pre-boil, 5.5 gallons into Fermentor

90 Min Boil

4.125 lbs Pilsner
3.375 lbs Munich Light
0.6875 lbs CaraMunich II
0.6875 lbs Carafa III
0.125 lbs Dextrose (ABV tweak, not Reinheitsgebot!!!)

1.33 oz Hallertau Mittlefruh @ 60 min
1.0 oz Hallertau Mittlefruh @ 20 min

Mash profile:
80F dough in
120F protein rest 20 min
138F 20 min
148F 150 min
154F 30 min
sag back to 48F 30 min

W34/70 quickie starter (run off some wort, place in Erlenmeyer flask on stirplate all day, 2 packs W34/70) chill overnight.
Decant starter beer, pitch the next morning at 48F. Oxygenate.
Ferment at 50F
D-rest at 66F, transfer to keg at 66F
Drop keg temp to 34F
Lager as long as you can wait. Mine 5 months, turned out TERRIFIC!

 

[MikeCo]

I made this one which is Northern Brewer's Pilsner Obscura recipe. I thought it was great.

5-gallon batch:

7 lbs Weyermann Pilsner
2 lb Weyermann Dark Munich
0.5 lbs Weyermann Dehusked Carafa II
0.19 lbs Weyermann Carafa III

 

[jerrylotto]

I've been refining my Black IPA recipe for a while and came up with a half a pound of black patent in a 13.5. pound grain bill. Just interested in color not flavor and that seems to do the trick.

 

[kylewag]

What kind of SRM are all of you getting? I brewed one a couple of months ago and calculated it to just over 30. When I held up an SRM chart, it looked more like 33. It's honestly hard to tell a difference at those levels.

 

[kylewag]

I like it, except for the crystal. This does not belong in a beer intended to be a classic German one. I also do not get why there should be two black malts, does not really make sense, both would be fine on their own in the right amount.

Really? I've read several articles on how to brew a Schwarzbier (I can share them if you want) and every single one of them has Caramunich malt or, "mid-colored crystal malt". Also, I've looked at several recipes online and they all have some form of crystal malt. I guess it's hard to mimic a beer that's been around since 1390. This is all confusing. Some people say to do something, others say that is doesn't belong. Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot!

 

[Miraculix]

Really? I've read several articles on how to brew a Schwarzbier (I can share them if you want) and every single one of them has Caramunich malt or, "mid-colored crystal malt". Also, I've looked at several recipes online and they all have some form of crystal malt. I guess it's hard to mimic a beer that's been around since 1390. This is all confusing. Some people say to do something, others say that is doesn't belong. Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot!

That is because everybody can write articles and they all can fill the articles with whateve they want. Does not have to be acurate. If you can find an article from the Köstritzer guys sharing their recipe and saying that they use crystal malt, I am all ears. Otherwise .......

 

[kylewag]

That is because everybody can write articles and they all can fill the articles with whateve they want. Does not have to be acurate. If you can find an article from the Köstritzer guys sharing their recipe and saying that they use crystal malt, I am all ears. Otherwise .......

That's true for brewing beers too. I've seen quite a few commercial beers that were technically out of style guidelines. Hell, even ale vs lager doesn't mean anything to them in some cases.

 

[PCABrewing]

Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot!

One of my personal favorites...

 

[Miraculix]

That's true for brewing beers too. I've seen quite a few commercial beers that were technically out of style guidelines. Hell, even ale vs lager doesn't mean anything to them in some cases.

Style guidelines are also just as good as the person who wrote them.

 

[kylewag]

Style guidelines are also just as good as the person who wrote them.

I guess what you mean is that style guidelines are just opinions and opinions are like ********. Everyone's got one and they're all full of ****.

 

[AlexKay]

Crystal malts bring something different to a beer, a taste profile that’s hard to duplicate either with base or roasted malts. This makes them another tool in your toolbox, one you can choose to use to create the beer you’re trying to create.

I get skipping the crystal because it’s not part of the taste you’re aiming for, but ruling it out entirely based on “tradition” means you’re trying to brew with a hand tied behind your back. Now (cough-Reinheitsgebot-cough) there are certainly brewers who make their beer in straitjackets, but to me it makes sense to just make the best-tasting beer you can.

 

[Miraculix]

Crystal malts bring something different to a beer, a taste profile that’s hard to duplicate either with base or roasted malts. This makes them another tool in your toolbox, one you can choose to use to create the beer you’re trying to create.

I get skipping the crystal because it’s not part of the taste you’re aiming for, but ruling it out entirely based on “tradition” means you’re trying to brew with a hand tied behind your back. Now (cough-Reinheitsgebot-cough) there are certainly brewers who make their beer in straitjackets, but to me it makes sense to just make the best-tasting beer you can.

Of course. But then do not call it a Schwarzbier but call it your own thing beer. I do this all the time, it is great, I can brew the beer that suits my taste! But I would not call it a cream ale if it is as dark as a stout and brewed with a kveik yeast, even if I love it.

 

[MikeCo]

IMO style guidelines are only useful for judging beer in competitions.

 

[kylewag]

People can be persnickety about what does and does not constitute a "traditional" or "authentic" style of beer all they want, but at the end of the day, people are going to brew whatever they like and call it whatever they want. After enough time goes by, that becomes the new normal. I think this has happened with crystal malts in Schwartzbier. I Googled it and found many, many style guidelines, "How to Brew a Schwartzbier" articles and dozens of recipes all with crystal malts. It was hard to find any without honestly. This doesn't mean that they're right, but like they say, there's sanity in numbers. The guy from Brulosophy brewed a Schwartzbier with crystal malts and ale yeast and won a second place at a competition May the Schwarzbier With You. So, if you do something "wrong" and are rewarded for it, who's to say that's a bad thing? I'm old enough to have witnessed many things change over time in ways that I would have "called it something else" too. But it is what it is.

 

[Protos]

New Normal and Sanity in Numbers are fun but dangerous trends. As long as it's just about beer it's not going to cause any trouble. But just imagine if a doctor chooses to call a peritonitis a flu and treat it accordingly. Or a judge deeming an armed robbery just a minor misdemeanor. Things are called this or that not without a reason. And BJCP styles aren't just guidelines for competitions, they are, more or less, an attempt to codify traditional cultural heritage, a large part of which has been around for centuries.

There's a term in the New Normality Newspeak to define exactly that, when a self-created style is labelled "Schwarzbier" or any other fancy exotic historic name. It's called Cultural Appropriation and is frowned upon severely unless it's about West European cultural heritage.

 

[kylewag]

New Normal and Sanity in Numbers are fun but dangerous trends. As long as it's just about beer it's not going to cause any trouble. But just imagine if a doctor chooses to call a peritonitis a flu and treat it accordingly. Or a judge deeming an armed robbery just a minor misdemeanor. Things are called this or that not without a reason. And BJCP styles aren't just guidelines for competitions, they are, more or less, an attempt to codify traditional cultural heritage, a large part of which has been around for centuries.

There's a term in the New Normality Newspeak to define exactly that, when a self-created style is labelled "Schwarzbier" or any other fancy exotic historic name. It's called Cultural Appropriation and is frowned upon severely unless it's about West European cultural heritage.

I hear you, too much of that going on these days. I do have a question in case anyone knows how this works. From what I understand, this style of beer can possibly be traced back to 800 BC. Even the more modern version back to the 1300's. I'm sure the ingredients and brewing techniques evolved some over the years. So, how did we finally arrive at what is officially considered an authentic Schwarzbier? What was the process? Was a law passed in Germany or something? Or was there like a beer commission that settled on the guidelines to codify the style? Also, would it be acceptable to call a beer, "a Schwarzbier inspired dark lager" if you strayed a bit from the authentic style, eg. added crystal malts?

 

[Protos]

From what I understand, this style of beer can possibly be traced back to 800 BC. Even the more modern version back to the 1300's.

In no way Schwarzbier might be as ancient. Black roasted malt was invented in the 19th century. Pastorianus yeast strains weren't used prior to the 16th century. They definitely brewed dark beers in Franconia back in the 800s and 1300s but these certainly stood far from the style we are talking about here.

When we are discussing (or setting competition guidelines for) Schwarzbier in the 21st century we are actually limited to a pretty narrow definition that comes from a pretty local tradition: a dark lager is called a Schwarzbier when it's brewed in a way traditional to Franconia between the 19th and the 20th centuries, where the style emerged and got its name. Although the style allows for some variations (though not much), straying further from the settled Franconian tradition leads us into the realm of Dark Lagers. What's wrong with our Crystal Black Lager to be called a Crystal Black Lager, not a Schwarzbier, which it isn't? Less exotic-sounding name? Well, there's plenty even more exotic names to choose. But the Schwarzbier "trademark" is "copyrighted" already, even if not by the law.

Or was there like a beer commission that settled on the guidelines to codify the style?

Rather (just like with most cultural phenomena) that was decades or centuries of practical brewing and local preferences which in time crystallized into a certain well-defined long-standing local tradition. People invented a style of beer. People invented a name for it. Am I entitled to appropriate what they've invented to serve My Own Precious And Brilliant Beery Сreativity? I don't think so. When I want a Schwarzbier, I seek for historical recipes and recreate them. When I want a Black Lager, I compile the recipe myself having no limitations other than my own preferences, and in such a case, "a Schwarzbier-inspired dark lager" or "a Schwarzbier-style Lager" labels seem legit to me.

I think, the world is already globalized too much to discard those already feeble elements of traditional heritage in favour of my personal "creative expression". So I don't dare to.

...Well, culture, tradition, heritage and history have been my professional field for all my life. That's why I have a bit of special attitude to those subjects. Which is extremely helpful in the hobby, I should add.

 

[Miraculix]

In no way Schwarzbier might be as ancient. Black roasted malt was invented in the 19th century. Pastorianus yeast strains weren't used prior to the 16th century. They definitely brewed dark beers in Franconia back in the 800s and 1300s but these certainly stood far from the style we are talking about here.

When we are discussing (or setting competition guidelines for) Schwarzbier in the 21st century we are actually limited to a pretty narrow definition that comes from a pretty local tradition: a dark lager is called a Schwarzbier when it's brewed in a way traditional to Franconia between the 19th and the 20th centuries, where the style emerged and got its name. Although the style allows for some variations (though not much), straying further from the settled Franconian tradition leads us into the realm of Dark Lagers. What's wrong with our Crystal Black Lager to be called a Crystal Black Lager, not a Schwarzbier, which it isn't? Less exotic-sounding name? Well, there's plenty even more exotic names to choose. But the Schwarzbier "trademark" is "copyrighted" already, even if not by the law.


Rather (just like with most cultural phenomena) that was decades or centuries of practical brewing and local preferences which in time crystallized into a certain well-defined long-standing local tradition. People invented a style of beer. People invented a name for it. Am I entitled to appropriate what they've invented to serve My Own Precious And Brilliant Beery Сreativity? I don't think so. When I want a Schwarzbier, I seek for historical recipes and recreate them. When I want a Black Lager, I compile the recipe myself having no limitations other than my own preferences, and in such a case, "a Schwarzbier-inspired dark lager" or "a Schwarzbier-style Lager" labels seem legit to me.

I think, the world is already globalized too much to discard those already feeble elements of traditional heritage in favour of my personal "creative expression". So I don't dare to.

...Well, culture, tradition, heritage and history have been my professional field for all my life. That's why I have a bit of special attitude to those subjects. Which is extremely helpful in the hobby, I should add.

All "Schwarzbier style lager" or "Schwarzbier inspired beer" is saying is: "I did not brew a Schwarzbier but I want people to think that it is one because I want a part of its reputation for my beer".

Leave the name Schwarzbier out of it completely. Call it what it is, a dark lager. Or dark crystal lager if you want to emphasize the, at the moment a bit unvogue, crystal malt. No problem with brewing a dark lager and adding what you like and even better, calling it what it actually is.

 

[AlexKay]

It's called Cultural Appropriation and is frowned upon severely unless it's about West European cultural heritage.

Along the same lines, you could look into what "gatekeeping" means.

But seriously, if I think it tastes mostly like a Schwarzbier, and that if I call it a Schwarzbier most people will know what to expect from it, I'm going to call it a Schwarzbier. It's not like I'm going to get a knock on the door from Die Schwarzbier Polizei because I included 4% DRC in the grist.

(Btw, I also put a few percent of DRC in my Marzens and Doppelbocks.)