should i add my dark grains at mash out

[mac_1103]

“dude sucks at brewing” lol among others.

That wasn't directed at you, and it seems that he's far from the only person who holds that opinion. Personally, I have no opinion having never tasted any of his beers.

 

[Bobby_M]

FWIW, reply #30 seems to fit most the criteria. And don't overlook #39.

Getting back to the process in Modern Homebrew Recipes: given the scores posted in #43, it's hard to believe claims that the process doesn't work (at all for any style). It clearly works well for a number of styles. And, if some of the newer styles require acid adjustments, people will update this process accordingly.

I'm not seeing it. That was a counter argument to putting Strong's brewing process (in its entirely and including the topic of this thread) on a pedestal via criticizing his extremely simplistic pH adjustment recommendation. Side note, I don't even think Gordon actually addresses pH in the way he suggests in the book. I presume his intent was to barely graze the topic and come up with something simple. Either way, that diversion within this thread does not come across as an attack on the entire population of homebrewers who do not measure their pH.

 

[brewbama]

... Nowhere in the text does it suggest that … adding dark malts at the end of the mash or steeping them in the boil as an extra step. On the contrary, …it's a waste of grain because you have to use more to get the same effect.

It’s worth noting not only does BCS offer the suggestion but it is very explicit in the text on pg 14 — though I can imagine Palmer wrote this section. In three of the paragraphs on this page he (they?) say caramel/crystal, kiln (toast), and roast grains can be steeped. It is very clearly stated:

End of para 1: “these malts [crystal/caramel] can be steeped to release soluble extract”

End of para 2: “these malts [kiln] must be mashed to release soluble extract but can be steeped to impart some characteristic flavors”

End of para 3: “roasted malts can be steeped to release soluble extract”

As far as waste; we’re not talking pounds difference. It’s like an oz or three which is probably less than a dollar more dark malt at the HomeBrew level. Nothing to get cost conscious about IMO. Seriously, we’re talking about adding a cpl more oz of roasted barley to a Stout at vorlauf vs a cpl oz less roasted barley in the mash.

Again, if you choose to brew this way great, if not great. Your call.

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree. I imagine they (Jamil and Tasty (RIP)) added them to the main mash.

…but it’s worth noting not only the suggestion but the very explicit text on pg 14 of BCS — though I imagine Palmer wrote this section. In the three paragraphs on this page he (they?) say caramel/crystal, roast, and kiln (toast) grains can be steeped. It is very clearly stated.

As far as waste; it’s like a buck or three more at the HomeBrew level. Nothing to get cost conscious about.

Again, if you choose to brew this way great, if not great. Your call.

Cheers!

They're establishing which grains can and can't be simply steeped in a general sense but they are not saying that the specialty grains in all the recipes in the book should be steeped even when converting to the all grain version. Whether you'd want to try a late addition of roasted grains or not, it would be counterproductive to leave all the specialty malts out of the mash because you misinterpret Jamil's intent. It's written as an extract recipe book so all the grains are listed as "steeping grains" to keep them separated from the extract additions.

 

[Miraculix]

Also worth noting that pretty much every crystal malt is not fully converted and still contains starches. The tendency is that the lighter coloured the crystal, the more unconverted starches are still present within the malt.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I use Brewfather to formulate and store my recipes. Dark malts are not marked as non fermentable also some have degrees Lintner set to zero some have nothing set at all. Additionally Maris Otter has a Lintner of 55 rather than 120-140. However changing Lintner to 120 has no effect on the SG or ABV. I am mightily confused.
So for my stout recipes I’ve set the dark malt and zero Lintner to non fermentable also, I’ve added 15 mash out to the dark grain and changed the Lintner values as per this chart below, can someone confirm or otherwise my actions please.

Diastatic Power of Common Grains

2-Row Pale Malt -- 140		Flaked Oats -- 0
6-Row Pale Malt -- 160		Flaked Wheat -- 0
Maris Otter Pale Malt -- 140		Flaked Barley -- 0
Pale Ale Malt -- 85		Caramel/Crystal Malts -- 0
Pilsen Pale Malt -- 140		Chocolate Malt -- 0
Munich 10L -- 40		Black Malt -- 0
Vienna Malt -- 50		Roasted Barley -- 0
Rye Malt -- 105		Carapils -- 0
Aromatic Malt -- 20		Melanoidin -- 0
Honey Malt -- 50		Special B -- 0
Red Wheat -- 180		Carafa I, II, III -- 0
White Wheat -- 160		Brown Malt UK -- 0
Cherrywood Smoked -- 140		Belgian Biscuit -- 0

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

extremely simplistic pH adjustment recommendation

The anecdotals in #43 suggest the perceived level of complexity doesn't matter.

 

[brewbama]

They're establishing which grains can and can't be simply steeped in a general sense but they are not saying that the specialty grains in all the recipes in the book should be steeped even when converting to the all grain version. Whether you'd want to try a late addition of roasted grains or not, it would be counterproductive to leave all the specialty malts out of the mash because you misinterpret Jamil's intent. It's written as an extract recipe book so all the grains are listed as "steeping grains" to keep them separated from the extract additions.

I acknowledged early on in this thread that BCS is an extract (DME/LME) HomeBrew recipe book. I believe all I am doing when I mash base grains is producing the same wort solution as I would by hydrating extract though I have more control of the processes involved (i.e. temperature, deoxygenated RO strike liquor, salts, …). Otherwise, I draw no distinction between the two.

In Table 2 of BCS it says, “The following is a table of the malts used in the recipes sorted by type.” It lists Base Malts — Need to be mashed. Kiln Malts — Need to be mashed but can be steeped. Roasted Malts — Can be steeped or mashed. Kilned and Roasted Malts — Can be steeped or mashed.

That seems clear to me that they’re talking about 1) the recipes in BCS, 2) all grain (base malts), and 3) they’re recommending steep or mash for kiln, roast, and kiln + roast malts. The text is explicit.

Therefore, the choice is yours.

Every beer for the past several years I have withheld the roasted and kiln + roasted grains listed in this table as “can be steeped or mashed” for a 30 min hot steep at mash out temperature regardless of the source of the recipe. I have a year’s worth of anonymous feedback that this process works.

It doesn’t bother me if a fellow brewer chooses not to brew the way I choose to brew. It does bother me when they say it doesn’t work or that’s not what the text says. It does, and it does.

And if you think adding an oz or so of crystal and/or roast for a hot steep is wasteful, wait until you hear I don’t sparge. I compensate by adding a bit more base grain to the main mash. The deer love the sugars I leave them in the spent grain.

 

[Bobby_M]

I use Brewfather to formulate and store my recipes. Dark malts are not marked as non fermentable also some have degrees Lintner set to zero some have nothing set at all. Additionally Maris Otter has a Lintner of 55 rather than 120-140. However changing Lintner to 120 has no effect on the SG or ABV. I am mightily confused.
So for my stout recipes I’ve set the dark malt and zero Lintner to non fermentable also, I’ve added 15 mash out to the dark grain and changed the Lintner values as per this chart

diastatic power is a rating of usable conversion enzymes. That's the sugar making machine horsepower. Extract potential is the raw material. Increasing total DP would only raise gravity if the previous total DP was inadequate to convert all the starch.

 

[duelerx]

.I didn't know Brewfather had that feature. Definitely good to know. Thanks!

The same with Brun'Water

 

[MicroMickey]

https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/has-it-got-the-power/

It's fairly easy to estimate DP. Doing so on marginal grain bills might keep you out of trouble and becoming a victim of "buyer's remorse." If you've got the software, that's great but a pencil and a scrap of paper will give you the same results.

 

[Bobby_M]

This is not an endorsement of either steeping or mashing dark grains. Just an attempt to clarify a potential misunderstanding.

Roasted grain/malt is not 0% convertible starch (so mashing it will raise OG) and the yield you get from it is not 0% fermentable so it will also raise ABV. It's not anything like a base malt in those regards, but I don't want people to get the impression that it's some inert food coloring.

If you look at the malt analysis sheets, you'll see exactly how the exact potential changes between various malt/grain products.
Weyermann Pilsner malt:

Weyermann Carafa II special (roasted barley had similar numbers)

Some reference material about "Extract Dry Basis" from respected authors in the pro brewing industry:
https://probrewer.com/library/malt/understanding-malt-analysis-sheets/


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2005.tb00648.x

Relevant table for discussion;

The base malt mash made 38.2 g/L of Maltose (60.1 total fermentable sugars) while the 50% Carafa mash made 21.3 g/L Maltose (35.9 total fermentable)

If roasted malts had no convertible starch, it would be expected that the 50% carafa mash would have exactly half the fermentable sugar.

This whole topic is a fascinating rabbit hole you can go down. If you read into that article it touches on lower nutrients, yeast inhibitors, etc which also suggests you might want to add more nutrient and be more careful with diacetyl rests with dark beers.

 

[brewbama]

To save the trouble of looking at every malt analysis sheet, in How to Brew Table 4.4 Palmer lists the yield for grains that can be steeped. He used 160°F for 30 min to collect his data. He lists it as points per lb per gal and points per kilo per liter.

 

[jcav]

Also as a side note BeerSmith also has a designation for each grain and one of the options for the grains is "sparge" so you can get the right numbers if you choose this option.

John

 

[fluketamer]

after 10 days the hydrometer readings seemed to have bottomed out at 1.011 for an abv of about 6. samples taste exceptional. very clean with a nice dry roastiness. not bitter or acrid at all. very smooth. not sweet , i can tell this will be really good. although it blew sulfer a few days ago 34/70 is one of the cleanest fastest highest flocculating yeasts i have brewed with