Safale US-04 yeast = funky flavor?

[piotrush]

Hi guys,

New brewer here. I've done 5 batches so far, all extract. My second and third were both ales from Jasper's brew supply. On those batches I used the Safale S04 and noticed that they had a weird after taste, not really sure how to describe it. I didn't reconstitute the yeast either time, just sprinkled before sealing the bucket. Has anyone here encountered anything similar? On batch 1 I used Nottingham yeast (same technique, just sprinkled), and batches 4&5 I switched to liquid yeast (don't remember what style) but that funky flavor was not present so I'm assuming I can attribute the flavor to the yeast. Has anyone on here encountered something similar? I'm getting ready to brew batch 6 (porter). Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Peter

 

[DamonInPHX]

So many variables in play. What was your recipe? Ferm temp? Sanitation? Ferm temp REALLY makes a difference, and can contribute to off flavors.

Whatever you do, don't panic and toss it. Most off flavors dissipate and leave you with a great beer.

 

[botigol]

Sorry, I'm going to have to press you to try to describe the funky taste. Without some sort of descriptor, any advice is just a wild guess. Also, have all of your kits come from the same place?

 

[rob_mcd]

The off flavor I've had (both with Nottingham and US-04) was a sort of sour-ish aftertaste (but not like a good sour -- just a "whiff of vinegar" sour).

I have had much better success using my same setup with US-05. So far, I think it has to do with fermentation temps, and US-04 being a lot more picky about temps in the higher range than US-05.

I recall reading a thread a while ago where many folks swore off ever using US-04 after it "ruined [a / another] batch". I found this right after kegging my US-04 fermented brew, and it felt a bit like watching a car crash...

I'm just now trying to get better control of my fermentation temps -- got a cool brewing bag after seeing the ad here on HBT. I plan to try another US-04 ferment once I get a handle on temp control -- maybe try a split ferment of a double batch using US-04 and US-05 to do a side-by-side comparison, even.

My funky Nottingham seemed to get better with time. Or, maybe, I just got used to the flavor... I'm giving this brew a long chill out, too, to see what happens.

Good luck!

 

[DamonInPHX]

I use 4 and 5 very frequently, and I have not had a problem, but I keep my primary ferm temp below 74 when possible. I chill down to 70, pitch a starter, and keep it below 72 during active fermentation. Try to anyway.

Vinegar taste is a little concerning, but let's not worry too much just yet. Yeast has an amazing ability to clean up, and time only helps. Keep it cool (68 to 74), taste occasionally (minding sanitation), and see what happens.

(edit: realized I wasn't replying to OP, but just the same...)

 

[midfielder5]

Without tasting the beer or getting exact recipe details, info re your process & fermentation it will be very hard to diagnose the sour/vinegar problem. Yeast is one variable out of many in your 5 recipes. If you had split the same batch between two fermenters and fermented them the same but w/ diff yeast, then we would be able to isolate the yeast issue. That is fun to do; try it like you mentioned.

For now-- Take the bottles to your homebrew store, or meet experienced brewers, and ask them what is going on.

By not rehydrating, you could be underpitching by a little or a lot, depends on the beer OG. An underpitch of yeast (regardless of type) will be stressed and lead to off flavors. If you don't want to spend 15 minutes rehydrating, you may need two dry yeast packs for 5-6 gallons (esp if OG is over 1.065 or so).

Work on learning if you need to increase the yeast cell count (there are many calculators out there) and keep ferm temps for regular ale ie non-belgian yeast below 65-68 (each yeast strain is different so read the manufacturer specs).

anyways, enjoy the process and keep reading/learning.
It may be true you just don't like English S-04 yeast.
cheers.

 

[amcclai7]

The only bad batch of beer I ever brewed (that didn't have tons of pecans in it!) was with S-04 yeast. Might not have entirely been the yeast's fault, but... I have read several comments on this forum from people indicating that they have had bad experiences with S-04. Below is a thread that has probably dozens of people hating on S-04. I have vowed never to use it again. It you want a British yeast flavor go with Wyeast 1968 or WLP 002.

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2012/12/off-flavor-or-infection-diagnosing-my.html

Here's a quote from that article, "I have been a homebrewer for 7 years. I've made 152 batches of ales & lagers of nearly all varieties. Most have turned out great. However, the batches that turned out bad were really bad (Terrible, unbearable medicinal "Band-Aid" off-flavors).
I have double cleaned, sanitized, boiled, used various water sources, adjusted fermentation temperatures, etc., etc. I closely monitored everything I did and kept meticulous records to help me isolate the medicinal off flavor problem.
I finally stepped back and looked at the data for 152 batches as a whole and the answer to me is overwhelmingly obvious. Here are the numbers:

93 Lagers - All strains of lager yeast used (Dry & Liquid) - BAD BATCHES (1)
19 Ales - Made with S-05 Dry Ale Yeast - BAD BATCHES (0)
13 Ales - Made with Nottingham/Danstar Ale Yeast - BAD BATCHES (1)
4 Ales - Made with Mr. Beer Ale Yeast (Strain??) - BAD BATCHES (0)
23 Ales - Made with S-04 Dry Ale Yeast - BAD BATCHES (16) (All were dumped!)(What a waste!)

I think this speaks loud and clear...Judge for yourself !
For me, I no longer use S-04 yeast in anything."

 

[estricklin]

If it were that bad of a yeast, I highly doubt it would still be on the market, and be so popular. Truth is the Wyeast and White labs version are probably identical to it anyway. I've brewed with all three and haven't noticed a difference. That being said, I don't generally prefer the flavor profile of that yeast anymore. I've brewed dozens and dozens of batches with English Ale, and learned that I prefer Irish Ale in those types of beers. I still intend to use 04 in the future, but not as much as I have in the past.

 

[alane1]

I use S-04 a lot and never had a problem with the final product. The thing with 04 is that it likes to be fermented cool(low 60's), needs proper aeration/oxygenation and a good amount of aging for the flavors to mature. Unlike a lot of yeasts, this strain tastes terrible in suspension and even worse in a green beer. My $0.02

 

[joehoppy]

I agree that 04 likes it on the cool side. I have found the sweet spot for me is 62-64 degrees. It is a vigorous yeast and fermentation can get temps rising quickly.

 

[RodeBrewingCo]

have to say not had any decent batches with Sa04. it keeps coming out with a slight or heavy licorice flavor (to me). I hate licorice. last attempt had a slight licorice flavor upfront, but did have a fruity finish. so it was not horrible. I just banked 5 50ML tubes also, to have on hand. I keep hoping it gets better. maybe ferment temp just to high. fermented at 68 degrees in the ales and ciders. which should work fine. I am using in two batches of hard cider. See how that turns out. it's on my not so good list, for whatever reason.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

I made 3 batches of Graff all with different yeasts (04, 05, & S-33). 04 was by far my favorite final product. I have not had "off" flavors with it, but other than the cider experiment I am not crazy about it. I ferment very cool (around 60-62) and I always rehydrate, so I don't think it is undesireable esters from heat or improper pitching.

 

[Happydad1689]

I have brewed 4 batches with S-04 and all have been great. I am new so I am not sure if this is normal, but they all seem to hit fg FAST! My last brew with it was bottled in 10 days

 

[mgonbrewlab]

S-04 and S-05 definitely work quickly, and they get more powerful if you harvest the yeast or put new wort on the yeast cake.

 

[Happydad1689]

S-04 and S-05 definitely work quickly, and they get more powerful if you harvest the yeast or put new wort on the yeast cake.

I looked into harvesting the yeast but it seemed to be a lot of work (boiling the water, etc) when a new packet is 4.00. Am I missing some other way to harvest?

 

[EJay]

I've had good luck scooping a few spoonfuls out of the fermenter with a sanitized spoon, and saving it in a small sanitized bottle in the fridge. Some will cringe to hear that I'm sure, but it works for me.

 

[Happydad1689]

I've had good luck scooping a few spoonfuls out of the fermenter with a sanitized spoon, and saving it in a small sanitized bottle in the fridge. Some will cringe to hear that I'm sure, but it works for me.

Do you just throw it into a new batch?

 

[Hammy71]

I'm one of those that never uses 04. Everybody is different. Me, I can't stand the twang from this yeast. It won't get better with time. It doesn't matter what temp you ferment. If you are one of the brewers that can taste it, just don't use it again. Sorry....

 

[DrummoRC]

I have had similar experience with US-04 It had a tart/tangy taste when some what fresh - they tasted funky like you said. So I left them for a few weeks and tried again and the **** was gone and they tasted fine!

This happen in more then one batch using US-04! That is just my experience as others have said there are a number of variables that come into play - but my motto is 'Time Heals All' 😊 at least it helps most times.

 

[Snowden]

My pumpkin ale from last summer had a tart taste with 04. However, it has definitely improved with age. No issues using 04 in ciders, however.

 

[Happydad1689]

I'm one of those that never uses 04. Everybody is different. Me, I can't stand the twang from this yeast. It won't get better with time. It doesn't matter what temp you ferment. If you are one of the brewers that can taste it, just don't use it again. Sorry....

Each of my all grain beers so far have been with 04, each had a certain taste I liked, I'm guessing it is the "twang" that you describe. Being new I wouldn't notice it..... Interesting

 

[mgonbrewlab]

I looked into harvesting the yeast but it seemed to be a lot of work (boiling the water, etc) when a new packet is 4.00. Am I missing some other way to harvest?

When you rack your beer off your yeast cake, rack cooled wort for your new beer on top of it.

The cake/slurry can probably sit in sterilized water or a small amount of beer for a couple days, but I figure if I am going to open my bucket I am exposing that cake to contamination, hence the need to immediately get it active again (at least, that is how my mind works). Otherwise you could add some sterilized water to loosen things up, and scoop it up (trub and all) into a sterilized container for storage. I have seen pro brewers reference doing this with 1-2 L Nalgene or Tritan plastic containers.

 

[RodeBrewingCo]

I looked into harvesting the yeast but it seemed to be a lot of work (boiling the water, etc) when a new packet is 4.00. Am I missing some other way to harvest?

$4.00 is fairly cheap in the scheme of things. But it adds up after awhile. It really only makes sense if you are doing quite a bit of brewing. For me banking the yeast is about time saving. For example when I do a cider batch I have to visit two places. HB store (for the yeast) and the cider mill. Having the yeast on hand saves me the extra trip. For harvesting (or growing more yeast, culturing) my personal opinion is to do that as a separate item while making a starter. IE two starter ones becomes a culture, with the intent to bank it. Personally I have done yeast washing but it can be some work. Just my opinion. I am doing some SA05 culturing right now (as I am doing an IPA). I’ll bank 10 or so conical 50ML tubes of the SA05. SA05 is currently my favorite ale yeast at the present time.

 

[Yooper]

s

I'm one of those that never uses 04. Everybody is different. Me, I can't stand the twang from this yeast. It won't get better with time. It doesn't matter what temp you ferment. If you are one of the brewers that can taste it, just don't use it again. Sorry....

Yes, me too. Well, let me quantify that a bit.

I LOVE the way it flocculates, and ferments fast and leaves a clear beer behind. And, at 62 degrees in a dark beer, the weird flavor is subdued or else covered. I used to use it, and thought I was imagining things at first.

But it's got a weird off-flavor that is usually subtle, but present, that I can not stand.

I use it in cider, though- and it rocks. I used up all my packages of S04 in cider, and I will not buy more unless I plan on it next fall for cidermaking.

 

[BreezyBrew]

The last beer I fermented with it was BM's Orange Kolsch. Great beer. I fermented at 66-68 wort temp. That was way too high I think. It gave the beer some odd off flavors. Most notably, a tart finish, which would have been alright considering the grain bill, but it also made it taste a bit hot, and there were also some very faint cidery flavors in the background that I get with US05 too. I won't be fermenting this high again. I may try again at 62-64 and see how it does.

I fermented a black IPA once with Notty, which also is known for a tart characteristic. I fermented that beer at 62-64. There wasn't any tartness to speak of in that beer. It was really clean, almost too clean with no yeast presence to speak of. I'm thinking they may be similar since they are both English yeasts and seem to have this flavor.

Anyway, yeah, I'd only uses this yeast again if that's a characteristic I was looking for specifically, and ferment it on the bottom of the temp range. As Denny says: Take your own experience as the gospel.

 

[tgourley01]

This is an interesting thread. It is curious that often things seem fine in the fermentor but go south after bottling or kegging.

I wonder if the sanitizer solution is contributing chlorine during the rack which mixes with the phenols producing chlorophenols.
I use tap water and starsan, no chlorine based sanitizer, but it is in the tap water...

...based on all my internet research ;o) I'm a rookie, w/only 7 brews under my belt.

I've have s-04 fermenting an extract dark forest stout now, I'm thinking I'll use potassium metabisulphite in my sanitizer solution to try to remove the chlorine with hopes of avoiding band-aids in the keg.
Temp was set at 62f, after 3 days it is tapering off so I raised the setpoint to 63. Will continue to raise it gradually until it is done, up to 68 probably.
Good airlock activity but the krausen is thin perhaps because of the oils in the cocoa powder. (?)
I guess this may have a weak head.

Thoughts?

 

[65C]

Old thread I know - but I just want to get this in

I've done 22 batches now with 4 different yeasts - almost all, especially the darks, have been great with US-05, M44, Ringwood - but all but one of the S-04s I've made have had a taste - now I've varied everything I can (except used RO water) to stop that taste on S-04 - temp, ph, ferment time, mash temp.

Something I do or use is just not compatible with it.

 

[DamonInPHX]

Something I do or use is just not compatible with it.

Cool - blast from the past.

I just checked all of my recipes, and it turns out I've subconsciously phased out US-04. I still use S-05, but as I've modified recipes over the years, US-04 has fallen by the wayside.

And I don't seem to miss it.

 

[thehaze]

I've also noticed a bit of tart-ish taste with S-04, but some english or most english yeast, are known to produce a bit of lactic acid.

I've brewed OK beers with S-04 and some that were not what I expected. It does fare better in darker beers... I know the Treehouse thread on this forum have deducted that S-04 along with 2 other strains, is responsible for the Treehouse flavour. So I think it depends on many factors, a homebrewer might not be able to accomodate or find out, in the course of brewing a few beers a year with different yeast.

 

[Hammy71]

Still the same for me as it was back then. I don't use any English yeast in my brews, since I'll just throw them out. 95% of my beers are with 05. I just modify the mash temp to get the body I want.

 

[Hurphy]

The off flavor I've had (both with Nottingham and US-04) was a sort of sour-ish aftertaste (but not like a good sour -- just a "whiff of vinegar" sour).

I have had much better success using my same setup with US-05. So far, I think it has to do with fermentation temps, and US-04 being a lot more picky about temps in the higher range than US-05.

I recall reading a thread a while ago where many folks swore off ever using US-04 after it "ruined [a / another] batch". I found this right after kegging my US-04 fermented brew, and it felt a bit like watching a car crash...

I'm just now trying to get better control of my fermentation temps -- got a cool brewing bag after seeing the ad here on HBT. I plan to try another US-04 ferment once I get a handle on temp control -- maybe try a split ferment of a double batch using US-04 and US-05 to do a side-by-side comparison, even.

My funky Nottingham seemed to get better with time. Or, maybe, I just got used to the flavor... I'm giving this brew a long chill out, too, to see what happens.

Good luck!

Has anyone learned the trick with this yeast after all these years? I used this earlier this summer and fermented at like 55 degrees and the beer turned out great. Did the same thing three weeks ago and the hydrometer sample tasted sour. Seriously wtf is wrong with this yeast?

 

[Dland]

Congrats on first 5 batches.

S-04 is has a fairly predicable flavor profile profile, if used at the recommended fermentation temperatures.

Might want to look in variations in extract age and quality also. Was it DME or LME?

 

[Protos]

Has anyone learned the trick with this yeast after all these years?

I was told that to lower the chances of getting tart beer with S-04 you shouldn't pitch the first generation of the yeast right from the sachet. You should multiply it first in a starter or, better, use harvested slurry. Then, they said, the beer turns our much less tart.
I've been willing to prove this for long, but the horror stories of my past experiences with this yeast are still preventing me from sacrificing a batch for the experiment.

 

[tld6008]

Never had a problem with it, always rehydrate and ferment at 65-68f

 

[dmtaylor]

I sprinkle it on top and it turns out great.

I do think, however, that the strain has somehow been cleaned up or otherwise "fixed" by the manufacturer over the past 3-4 years, such that if you haven't used it in a while, you should be able to safely try it again today and obtain much better results. For me, I am going to use S-04 everywhere that I used to use US-05 which I personally find inferior.

That, or maybe my palate just really is that terrible.

 

[Drewch]

I've been thinking about giving up on S-04 — I may try it once more on the very cool end of its temperature range (I think I still have one sachet). I get flavor elements from it that I don't care for. I used to think it was me but I've had enough success with other yeasts that I'm less inclined to blame myself.

I'm getting close to the it's-not-me-it's-you point with S-04...

 

[superiorsat]

I've never had any issues with S-04. It starts fast and runs hot so I can see it getting away on people if they are not reigning it in on the temp.

 

[Protos]

I fermented it cold. I fermented it warm. I aged a batch for a year. To no awail, it throws lot of Lactic Acid every time. It's not just tart, it's outwardly sour. Even when a Lactobacillus contamination is excluded.

M36 from Mangrove Jacks is essentially the same strain but a much better behaved one. So I switched to it.

The only problem, I've got a stash of S-04 sachets bought when I wasn't aware of the true colours of the yeast. I've got a lot of it and I need to use it up somehow

 

[Miraculix]

I fermented it cold. I fermented it warm. I aged a batch for a year. To no awail, it throws lot of Lactic Acid every time. It's not just tart, it's outwardly sour. Even when a Lactobacillus contamination is excluded.

M36 from Mangrove Jacks is essentially the same strain but a much better behaved one. So I switched to it.

The only problem, I've got a stash of S-04 sachets bought when I wasn't aware of the true colours of the yeast. I've got a lot of it and I need to use it up somehow

I think, your packs might be a special batch or something like this, because it never gave me lactic acid. I've had relatively clean beers and best flocculation ever from it. But you are certainly not the first person reporting this behaviour of s04, so there must be something to it somehow. When did you try it and how old are the packs?

 

[Drewch]

So, a question — is there a trend with the grain bill or hops that might correspond with the bad behavior?

Edit: or even water profile? I generally use RO adjusted to Bf's Balanced or Strong Balanced.

I have mostly used it in darker beers with English hops — dark mild though brown ale to stout. Mostly EKG, Fuggles, Progress.

I have done meads and ciders with it and not noticed the off flavor — but those tend to be more acidic anyway.