Off flavors...but used ale yeast this time

[hilljack13]

I am trying to find a good German recipe that I can keep going to. I have been doing 1 gal batches and my last had some awful off flavors. I used 34/70 with 100% vienna malt. My next batch I decided to use S-04 just to see if I can get something drinkable that isn't a kit.

Recipe just because I was messing around. Brewed 2/28/24
Bestmalz Pilsen: 72.3%
Weyermann Munich II: 9.9%
Weyermann Vienna: 9.9%
Weyerman CaraMunich II: 7.9%

6g EKG @60
6g Fuggles @30
6g Fuggles @10

OG 1.059 (BrewFather est 1.054)
FG still going currently 1.017; BF est 1.012

Did my normal BIAB on the stovetop. Put ~1.1g in the LBMB and set in my room to go. Temps 68-71F. Some fluctuations but I didn't figure this much was too far off. I decided to have a small sample and there is a distinct off flavor. Similar to my previous Vienna w/34/70. I thought this was odd so looking for any advice. I'll continue to let it ferment as far down as I can. I was just surprised at the odd flavor using ale yeast. Never had this using kits.

I'd like to experiment more, but at this rate I am wondering what the issue is? My normal batches (Kit only so far) using a GrainFather G40 & Spike Flex+ and no issues. This BIAB mashes with a 2 gal Igloo cooler and standard 2 gal kettle.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Put ~1.1g in the LBMB and set in my room to go. Temps 68-71F. Some fluctuations but I didn't figure this much was too far off.

Do you know the temperature of the beer while it was fermenting?

If "68-71F" is room temperature, you may have fermented in the 72-74F range.

there is some magic with 1 gal (or 1.25 gal) batches, stable ambient temperature around 65F, and slower strains of yeast (e.g. US-05). For me, these conditions would set up a stable fermentation temperature of around 67F. For faster strains (e.g. Windsor), "all bets are off" as to the outcome. IIRC S-04 fell some where in between (but it's been a number of years since I used it).

I decided to have a small sample and there is a distinct off flavor.

Are you sampling from the fermenter?

 

[rburrelli]

W34/70 is not an ale yeast. It is a lager yeast and would like lower temps than you are fermenting at. Perhaps this is a cause.

 

[mac_1103]

W34/70 is not an ale yeast. It is a lager yeast and would like lower temps than you are fermenting at. Perhaps this is a cause.

Which is why the OP switched to S-04 for this batch. His question is why, if the off flavor in his previous batch was due to lager yeast fermenting too warm, he's getting a similar off flavor in this batch fermented with an ale yeast.

I decided to have a small sample and there is a distinct off flavor.

How long has it been fermenting?

 

[hotbeer]

When are you sampling the beer and getting the off flavors? If it's anytime prior to it being properly carbonated, conditioned and ready for the glass, then off flavors might be normal.

Possibly you have a sanitation issue since you got the same tastes with a prior beer using another yeast. Perhaps you just don't like the type of beer you are making.

How do you describe that off flavor.

 

[ba-brewer]

If you want a German style lager best to use German hops not English.

You can make a decent german pils with 100% Best Malz pilsner, 20IBU to 25IBU of bitterness from magnum at 60min, 10IBU at 10min to 15min from hallertau or tettnang. Mash low to get a well attenuated finish gravity. Plenty of people use 34/70 in the low 60s with good results, I would try to get it down to 55f for a the first few days then let rise to low 60s to finish.

 

[AlexKay]

That's a perfectly reasonable looking recipe, as far as making something that tastes like beer goes. I doubt the recipe is your problem.

The strength of 34/70 is that it can handle questionable treatment and still give you good beer. I also doubt the yeast is your problem (especially as changing the yeast didn't help things.)

When you say that the kits were good, but the recipe isn't ... were the kits extract? If you have a problem that comes up switching from extract to all-grain, it could very well be water. Tell us about the water you're using. Or make a batch using distilled/RO and see if the problem goes away.

Otherwise, do your best to tell us what the off-flavor actually tastes like. Sucking on a teabag? Canned corn? Raw pumpkin? Vomit? Eating a Band-Aid?

 

[hilljack13]

Do you know the temperature of the beer while it was fermenting?

If "68-71F" is room temperature, you may have fermented in the 72-74F range.

My Tilt reported these temps.

When are you sampling the beer and getting the off flavors?

Only today.

Are you sampling from the fermenter?

Yes

If you want a German style lager best to use German hops not English.

This was just a test to see if I could make something drinkable...not meant to be a German lager.

were the kits extract?

All grain. So the only real difference is using bottled spring water with the kits and tap water with the 1 gal "tests"

Seems like the off flavor is some type of butter/butterscotch. Just rancid to me. I like to think my descriptors are accurate, however I have never tasted the off flavors so hopefully my guess can be interpreted. This might be biased because I have read so many times of the butter/butterscotch flavor that my mind might just think this.

 

[hilljack13]

W34/70 is not an ale yeast. It is a lager yeast and would like lower temps than you are fermenting at. Perhaps this is a cause.

This was a pure try to do an ale. Since I was using UK hops and S-04. But the same bad tastes came through as they did with the 34/70 and lower temps. I did the Vienna at 54F.

 

[hilljack13]

If you want a German style lager best to use German hops not English.

You can make a decent german pils with 100% Best Malz pilsner, 20IBU to 25IBU of bitterness from magnum at 60min, 10IBU at 10min to 15min from hallertau or tettnang. Mash low to get a well attenuated finish gravity. Plenty of people use 34/70 in the low 60s with good results, I would try to get it down to 55f for a the first few days then let rise to low 60s to finish.

This was my first 1 gal test. It came out tasting like a flat Budweiser. Such a shame to use German malt only to get an American piss beer.....I dumped it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Yes [sampling from fermenter]

The beer may taste different different (and maybe much better) after it has been packaged and given time to "condition".

So the only real difference is using bottled spring water with the kits and tap water with the 1 gal "tests"

And that is likely a meaningful difference that others will comment on in more detail.

 

[ba-brewer]

All grain. So the only real difference is using bottled spring water with the kits and tap water with the 1 gal "tests"

Does your tap give well water or city water?

It would not cause a butterscotch flavor but city water treated with chloride or chloramine can give other off flavors if you don't add camden.

Butterscotch is normally diacetyl which could be from yeast or bacteria.

Rancid could be DMS, a short boil or soft boil or a slow chill after could cause that.

 

[AlexKay]

Are you using “rancid” to mean you hate it, or specifically that it tastes like fat that has gotten too old and gone off?

Artificial butter/butterscotch would be diacetyl. I’ve never gotten 34/70 to make a lot of diacetyl, no matter how badly I abused it. Bacteria seems like the more likely possibility, and also fits into the “everything was good, and now everything is bad” narrative. Is the beer at all sour? Anyhow, it’s never a bad idea to clean everything really, really well. If you’ve got a spare fermenter or don’t mind picking one up, that might be a good thing to try, too. Or swap in a new spigot for the LBMB, if you’re using the spigoted kind.

Since you in fact changed your water, that’s got to be a prime suspect. Try a batch with the water you were using, or with distilled. The wrong water can give you astringency (mouth-drying, from high pH), or plastic/medicinal/antiseptic off-flavors (from chlorine content.) You will sometimes hear people say that if the water tastes good enough to drink, it is good enough for beer. This is not true. But the converse can be: there are certain off flavors (phenols, geosmin) in water that will carry through and ruin your beer, too. Always taste your water.

If you’re using a LBMB, are you covering it to keep light out? Lightstruck beer doesn’t taste rancid or buttery at all, but it sure does taste terrible (like skunk.)

 

[hilljack13]

city water

This. There is no report on the local website

soft boil

I am unsure of this? The boil times for these were ~90 min @212F. I had the wrong boil off put in the calc. .75g/ph but now .43g/hr for my next trial.

Are you using “rancid” to mean you hate it

basically. I can see how this is confusing. My best guess is that buttery flavor.

If you’ve got a spare fermenter

I have 5 LBMB. I have used two of them. Next batch I will pull a new one.

If you’re using a LBMB, are you covering it to keep light out?

Yes. For the previous Vienna I had it in a refrigerator. I did put a hand towel around the current batch.

 

[hilljack13]

Just for reference.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

soft boil

I am unsure of this?

This is a good visual reference for boil intensity.

 

[hilljack13]

It's been stuck for a few days. First time this has happened, however it hasn't been a week.

 

[hilljack13]

Definitely not a soft boil

 

[dmtaylor]

Seems like the off flavor is some type of butter/butterscotch. Just rancid to me. I like to think my descriptors are accurate, however I have never tasted the off flavors so hopefully my guess can be interpreted. This might be biased because I have read so many times of the butter/butterscotch flavor that my mind might just think this.

This sounds like diacetyl, which is common in young beer. If so, leave the beer alone for 3 or 4 weeks, and the yeast will eat the diacetyl, and everything will be fine. Probably just needs some time. Don't dump it yet!!

 

[AlexKay]

This sounds like diacetyl, which is common in young beer. If so, leave the beer alone for 3 or 4 weeks, and the yeast will eat the diacetyl, and everything will be fine. Probably just needs some time. Don't dump it yet!!

This is true unless the diacetyl is from an infection. And I am worried about this just because 34/70 is usually so good about not making diacetyl (and fermenting warm should only help, at least as far as that’s concerned.)

 

[AlexKay]

(OP, still wondering if there’s any sourness…)

 

[ba-brewer]

This. There is no report on the local website

I doubt if it is causing the butterscotch issue but you should add camden to your brewing water to remove chlorine and chloramine. These could produce phenolic off flavors like clove and Band-Aid in your beer.

I am unsure of this? The boil times for these were ~90 min @212F. I had the wrong boil off put in the calc. .75g/ph but now .43g/hr for my next trial.

A 90min boil and your boil off seem fine to get rid of DMS from the boil, just make sure to get the wort down to 160F quickly after the boil is finished.

 

[hotbeer]

When are you sampling the beer and getting the off flavors? If it's anytime prior to

Only today.

Well that can't be true, or how did you know that you had off flavors that you previously reported?

As I went on to further say it makes a difference when you are tasting the beer. "When" being a particular stage of the beer making process and not a time or date.

If your beer is in the fermenter. Then one of the things that happens during fermentation is that yeast can produce off flavors. And the time after fermentation actually is finshed, those off flavors can be eliminated. Some by the yeast themselves and other through gassing off or chemical process yet to happen.

 

[hilljack13]

Well that can't be true, or how did you know that you had off flavors that you previously reported?

As I went on to further say it makes a difference when you are tasting the beer. "When" being a particular stage of the beer making process and not a time or date.

If your beer is in the fermenter. Then one of the things that happens during fermentation is that yeast can produce off flavors. And the time after fermentation actually is finshed, those off flavors can be eliminated. Some by the yeast themselves and other through gassing off or chemical process yet to happen.

Not sure what you mean in the first reply, but I took a sample because the fermentation had slowed down. After two days still at 1.017. I don't think it is done and I have taken samples before from other brews. I have never had the off flavor like this before.

 

[hilljack13]

(OP, still wondering if there’s any sourness…)

Nope

 

[hilljack13]

This is true unless the diacetyl is from an infection. And I am worried about this just because 34/70 is usually so good about not making diacetyl (and fermenting warm should only help, at least as far as that’s concerned.)

I am trying to think when an infection might have occurred. The FV, airlock, and Tilt were sitting in sanitizer for a good amount of time during the boil. I have noticed the lids seem to get pushed up so this time I put two 5lb weights on the lid so I am pretty certain no oxygen was introduced once sealed. Fermentation started quick, as you can see by the BF screenshot.

 

[hilljack13]

Since I am going on day three with no movement in gravity, would it be wise to maybe sprinkle an additional gram of yeast on top? or maybe give the fv a bit of a shake instead to get the yeast mixed back in?

 

[dmtaylor]

Since I am going on day three with no movement in gravity, would it be wise to maybe sprinkle an additional gram of yeast on top? or maybe give the fv a bit of a shake instead to get the yeast mixed back in?

Additional yeast will do absolutely nothing. Swirling the fermenter *might* help wake up the yeast that is already present... but I doubt it.

 

[hilljack13]

Last question...maybe. Since these LBMB have such headspace, could it be oxygen causing the issue? I tried to get 1.25 g in them but I might go a bit more if that might help. I haven't had any krausen go out the lock yet. My next test will be a 80/20 pilsner/Munich II (supposedly Paulaner Oktoberfest) and I would like to get it right.

 

[mac_1103]

Since these LBMB have such headspace, could it be oxygen causing the issue?

Do you have reason to believe that the LBMB isn't sealed well? I don't think the off flavor you're describing is associated with oxidation, and it seems awfully quick to be getting a pronounced oxidation flavor anyway.

 

[hilljack13]

Do you have reason to believe that the LBMB isn't sealed well? I don't think the off flavor you're describing is associated with oxidation, and it seems awfully quick to be getting a pronounced oxidation flavor anyway.

No, I even put two 5lb weights on the top this time because I noticed in my first couple tests the lid was getting pushed up.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

No, I even put two 5lb weights on the top this time because I noticed in my first couple tests the lid was getting pushed up.

Can you explain this further? Is the Little BMB no longer shipping with screw on lids?

FWIW, I've brewed a lot with the Little BMB. Never had an issue with the screw on lid getting pushed up; sometimes getting the lid open was a little difficult.

 

[hilljack13]

Can you explain this further? Is the Little BMB no longer shipping with screw on lids?

FWIW, I've brewed a lot with the Little BMB. Never had an issue with the screw on lid getting pushed up; sometimes getting the lid open was a little diffic

Can you explain this further? Is the Little BMB no longer shipping with screw on lids?

FWIW, I've brewed a lot with the Little BMB. Never had an issue with the screw on lid getting pushed up; sometimes getting the lid open was a little difficult.

It has these push on type lids....

Also, just checked the Tilt...DOWN TO 1.016!

EDIT: Keeps bouncing b/w 17 & 16, but at least it's something

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

but I might go a bit more if that might help. I haven't had any krausen go out the lock yet. My next test will be a 80/20 pilsner/Munich II (supposedly Paulaner Oktoberfest) and I would like to get it right.

For 1.25 gal batches, I doubt that the bottles for a malt forward styles (like #1 or a octoberfest-inspired recipe) will be around long enough to show signs of oxidation. I also suspect that techniques to mitigate oxygen damage on brew day and during packaging will be easier and more helpful than trying to minimize fermenter head space. (pointers to ideas available upon request).

If you are planning to reduce head space (and risk krausen in the airlock), this style

airlock is easier to clean. Starting with a blow-off is another alternative, but runs the risk of suck-back, etc, etc, etc.

 

[mac_1103]

No, I even put two 5lb weights on the top this time because I noticed in my first couple tests the lid was getting pushed up.

If the airlock was bubbling throughout fermentation and hasn't dried out then it really does seem highly unlikely that oxygen ingress is an issue.

 

[dmtaylor]

Oh jeez.... I just realized that you are using a Tilt. You know, the Tilt does not read FG accurately when there is a bunch of yeast & hop schmutz stuck to it. It tends to read a little high. If you want to know the true gravity, you're going to have to take a sample out and measure with a traditional hydrometer. My bet is that a traditional hydrometer will read closer to your goal of 1.012.

 

[hilljack13]

Oh jeez.... I just realized that you are using a Tilt. You know, the Tilt does not read FG accurately when there is a bunch of yeast & hop schmutz stuck to it. It tends to read a little high. If you want to know the true gravity, you're going to have to take a sample out and measure with a traditional hydrometer. My bet is that a traditional hydrometer will read closer to your goal of 1.012.

I'll give it a try. My hydrometer has always read incorrect. 1.00 is 1.002. Not a biggie, but there is a reason I quit using it. I actually have 4 Tilts and this one, this time is the only one that reads above expected FG. I'm letting it sit until Saturday either way. Then I'll take a hydrometer reading to compare.

OTOH...I did my Paulaner Oktoberfest 1g clone today. Post boil gravity was 5 points off, but I still hit the OG exactly at 1.054!! I took the warm fermentation route with 34/70 after reading through that thread. . Currently sitting at 68F. Fingers crossed.

 

[Stikius]

68F seems very high for 34/70. I would normally go for 52-54F until I'm close to FG (7+ days) and then raise to 64-65F for a few days diacetyl rest. Then cold crash. In case I couldn't regulate temperature and only had to keep it steady I would rather keep it at 52-54F for a longer time (3+ weeks). Lager yeasts are not meant to be stressed and fermented that warm, with the exception of if you are able ferment under pressure.
If it's a problem to ferment cold you could try Fermentis Saflager s-23, which could be used to ferment lagers at higher temperature. I've brewed some nice lagers with that one at room temperature.

 

[hilljack13]

68F seems very high for 34/70. I would normally go for 52-54F until I'm close to FG (7+ days) and then raise to 64-65F for a few days diacetyl rest. Then cold crash. In case I couldn't regulate temperature and only had to keep it steady I would rather keep it at 52-54F for a longer time (3+ weeks). Lager yeasts are not meant to be stressed and fermented that warm, with the exception of if you are able ferment under pressure.
If it's a problem to ferment cold you could try Fermentis Saflager s-23, which could be used to ferment lagers at higher temperature. I've brewed some nice lagers with that one at room temperature.

I did that on purpose per my previous post. I can ferment at any temp but these are just test batches.