Repeated infections (need advice)

[Steamy]

So this may be a bit long but hopefully some of you can help me with this

TLDR:
Repeated infections (likely Brettanomyces) how do i troubleshoot in a public home brewery?

Background:

Im a relatively new brewer, made a few batches but im having a bit of a sanitation issue.
I have access to a small brew club facility in relation to my school which is honestly in a prety bad shape and ive had some issues with infections.

Ive been using bleach and boiling water for cleaning since Starsan has been unavailable to me, however i have gotten a hold of some which ill be getting in a couple of weeks.
Recently i got back into it after some time away but my two latest batches seem to both be infected.

The first one had a bit screwed up temperatures i believe but turned out ok, but was quite watery however the fermentation was successfull. It was supposed to be an IPA but turned out more like a brown ale for some weird reason (maybe hops had gone old?).
I decided to try dry hopping it, boiled a hop bag for about 15 minutes and threw in some hops while bleach sanitized gloves. 3 days later pellicle was formed all over the top. Beer still seems fine so i waited a bit and decided to bottle since the FG was super low and didnt see too much of a chance for bomb issues.

The second one was a wheat beer which i fermented in a primary for around 2 weeks. Took a gravity reading by bleaching and then boiling for 15+ minutes a plastic measuring cup, took some of the beer out for measuring and tasting. It was slightly under fermented so decided to wait a bit but the beer tasted amazing so i was looking forward to it.

Fast forward about a week later and i open it up, filled with pellicle...
At this point im getting insanely frustrated since 2 of my 4 recent batches are most likely undrinkable so i need some expert guidance.

I usually use a high amount of bleach and recently started acidifying bleach by adding 30ml bleach 30ml vinegar as i read thats a great killer. I tend to boil anything i can after for rinsing and extra sanitation.

My biggest issue i belive is the facilities and equipment. Some of the plastic fermenters are a bit old and the facilities are located in a small basement room. There is ventelation but there have been bug problems and such in the past. There is prety much no room sanitation protocols at the moment.

I suspect that Brettanomyces are my cause since the beers dont seem to be turning sour but are definitely being over-attenuated and lose their flavor, turning into a bit spirited as well. I bottled some beers last week and im going to try opening one tonight to see if i have a gusher or sour beers.

As i stated ive had issues with infections in the past with this facility and its at a rate which it really shouldnt be like so i have some ideas but im not sure if they will work.
Not brewing is not really an option, i love craft beers and really want to get good at making them, but as a student my budged is quite limited at the moment to use the equipment i have and purchasing some small cheaper stuff (autosiphon, sanitizer, tubes and such)

Ideas:

Depending on whats going on i have considered scaling down and moving it to my kitchen and purchasing my own plastic fermenters. This is not preferable for me since the facilities have decent equipment such as pumps, fermented, carboys, decent brew kettles with temperature measures, wort coolers and such.

Another idea is to talk to the ones incharge at the moment and see if we can sanitize the entire place somehow, but if we do ill most likely need to do it and im not sure how to get ridd of enviromental infections, for example do i sanitize the room or do i need an airfilter?
It is worth noting that there is an allocated budget for that facility but im not sure how much it is, so i could get some things to get rid of potential issues.

What are some things i should consider?

 

[burntchef]

Sorry for your bad luck. Using plastic anything in a public facility would be a non starter for me. Stainless and glass all the way. Can you purchase your own hand tools and maybe your own fermenter for use in their kitchen?
Eric

 

[Steamy]

Sorry for your bad luck. Using plastic anything in a public facility would be a non starter for me. Stainless and glass all the way. Can you purchase your own hand tools and maybe your own fermenter for use in their kitchen?
Eric

Yes i could make my own budget for that.

Is there a problem with using the facilities tho? Should i avoid the facilities and brew in my own kitchen or do you think switching out the plastic for personal plastic stuff should be enough to start with?

 

[Jag75]

The thing that sticks out in my mind is pellicle. If I'm not mistaken this is due to O2. The beer is protecting itself from the O2. Someone with more knowledge would be able to elaborate. Take your IPA for instance, not knowing what your grain bill was I'm gonna say it was oxidized by your description of the color. Hoppy beers are touchy when it comes to oxidation.

Now as for the equipment. Seems like it's a community set up in which is no bueno in my book. I know it's easy for me to say that because I have my own stuff but you dont know how this stuff is being cared for . So it seems to me your up against it from the get. Once you can get your own stuff you'll be better off. Sounds like all the equipment needs to be inspected and cleaned thoroughly, anywhere theres scratches, threads , creases ect... sounds like the stuff could use a really hot soak of PBW or likewise cleaner and some sanitizer. Things like the pump , ball valve on kettles need to opened up and cleaned. There are some guys of science on here I'm sure can be a big help as well. Good luck

 

[madscientist451]

Depending on whats going on i have considered scaling down and moving it to my kitchen and purchasing my own plastic fermenters. This is not preferable for me since the facilities have decent equipment
Another idea is to talk to the ones incharge at the moment and see if we can sanitize the entire place somehow,
What are some things i should consider?

It doesn't matter how great the equipment is if you can't make a decent beer with it.
Even if you sanitize the brewery, you can't control what happens when you aren't there.
You'll have to repeat the process every time. How do you know if someone is opening a fermenter and looking in? If you are on tight budget, does it make sense to buy ingredients and then have the beer be infected?
Brewing at home in your kitchen can be done very cheaply. A brew pot, a BIAB bag, a side pot to heat "dunk sparge" water is helpful but optional.
Ferment in a food safe bucket with an airlock. I have access to cheap used stuff around here, which I realize you may not have, but if you hunt around you can probably find some cheap items to start your home brewery with.

 

[Steamy]

The thing that sticks out in my mind is pellicle. If I'm not mistaken this is due to O2. The beer is protecting itself from the O2. Someone with more knowledge would be able to elaborate. Take your IPA for instance, not knowing what your grain bill was I'm gonna say it was oxidized by your description of the color. Hoppy beers are touchy when it comes to oxidation.

Now as for the equipment. Seems like it's a community set up in which is no bueno in my book. I know it's easy for me to say that because I have my own stuff but you dont know how this stuff is being cared for . So it seems to me your up against it from the get. Once you can get your own stuff you'll be better off. Sounds like all the equipment needs to be inspected and cleaned thoroughly, anywhere theres scratches, threads , creases ect... sounds like the stuff could use a really hot soak of PBW or likewise cleaner and some sanitizer. Things like the pump , ball valve on kettles need to opened up and cleaned. There are some guys of science on here I'm sure can be a big help as well. Good luck

Thanks ill look into the equipment then and start investing in my own stuff.
In regards to O2... i did aerate with a steel strainer before pitching which im supposed to do as far as i understand.
But some O2 may have gotten in when i opened for the gravity test but definately not a lot since i only opened for a brief time.

One thing i forgot to mention is that the wheat beer got a lot worse after the pellicle formed. Similarly to the other one it felt kinda watery afterwards which is a shame because it was on its way to become a pretty good beer by the taste test.

 

[Steamy]

It doesn't matter how great the equipment is if you can't make a decent beer with it.
Even if you sanitize the brewery, you can't control what happens when you aren't there.
You'll have to repeat the process every time. How do you know if someone is opening a fermenter and looking in? If you are on tight budget, does it make sense to buy ingredients and then have the beer be infected?
Brewing at home in your kitchen can be done very cheaply. A brew pot, a BIAB bag, a side pot to heat "dunk sparge" water is helpful but optional.
Ferment in a food safe bucket with an airlock. I have access to cheap used stuff around here, which I realize you may not have, but if you hunt around you can probably find some cheap items to start your home brewery with.

Thanks, ill definitely look into options for moving it to my kitchen

 

[Jag75]

Yeah I would definitely urge you to get your own equipment . I will purge with co2 when I dry hop. If you dont have that option I would suggest dry hopping towards the end of fermentation.

 

[orono]

Take this for what it is worth. I think it is important for you to value your time into this equation, too. IMO, your resources (time, money and space) must all work towards your end goal of producing good beer for you to consume. If you use compromised (contaminated, not able to be properly sanitized, who knows what it is being used for, etc.) equipment you cannot control the outcome. I think you should "control what you can control," such as consider purchasing your own equipment. Your budget will determine what if any amount you buy.

 

[Miraculix]

Easy solution, let @RPh_Guy talk you into the beauty of wild fermentation

 

[IslandLizard]

There are a few things to consider.

1. Items need to be clean before you can sanitize them. Cleaning and sanitizing are 2 different processes, using different chemicals and methods.
For example, you can't sanitize dirt.
Washing soda, (generic) Oxiclean (Sodium Percarbonate), (homemade) PBW, etc. are common brewery cleaners. They're alkaline, degrease, remove dirt and deposits with soaking, washing, and some scrubbing, destroy biofilm, etc.

2. Use a sanitizer on everything on the "cold side" of the brewing process. That means on everything that touches cooled wort (<140F) or beer. Wort becomes beer after pitching yeast.

Although bleach can be used to disinfect equipment from previous infections (bleach bombing), it should be avoided as a day to day sanitizer in brewing. The Chlorine, which does the sanitizing work, will cause serious off flavors in beer if any transfers to wort/beer, even minute amounts.

Instead, use a real, no-rinse sanitizer if you can. Iodine (Povidone) based sanitizers are commonly available, such as Iodophor, IO Star, etc. They're no-rinse if used at the correct dilution. Many homebrewers (even pros) in the U.S. prefer to use StarSan for its ease of use. That is the actual product name; beware, there can be a few similar sound-alikes out there.

If you're not in the U.S. Starsan may be available where you live, but can be fairly expensive in some markets. Yet, a properly diluted working solution lasts a long, long time, weeks, even months when kept clean. You don't need huge buckets full either. A small container or bucket holding 1-2 liters with a small designated washcloth can be used to mop the Starsan onto surfaces. And/or use a spray bottle. After 30-60 seconds of contact time the surface/item is sanitized. As long as a surface remains wet with Starsan, it remains sanitized.

You need to clean and sanitize your fermenters and its parts (buckets, carboys, jugs, lids, etc.) before adding (cooled) wort or beer to it. Before removing lids, stoppers, etc. from a filled fermenter, those areas need to be clean and sanitized again, each time. Dust and especially grain dust is laden with bacteria and other "bugs." That's probably where you picked up the infections. The lid and rim area underneath can be real bug traps. So are siphons, transfer tubing/hoses, containers, etc.

You don't need stainless or glass, plastic can be fine to use, as long as you take care of it (no scratches etc.). Now community plastics is a different story...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Easy solution, let @RPh_Guy talk you into the beauty of wild fermentation

Does the OP like sour Saisons by chance?

Why swim against the current?

 

[davidabcd]

plus one on moving to your own kitchen. Money you save in not throwing away beer can be put toward functional equipment.
Another good point was the variables you can't account for.

 

[eric19312]

Do other brewers who use that facility make good beer? Can you maybe tag along with someone and learn their process? If you can just come for a brew day make sure you ask plenty of questions about their bottling process too.

I like the idea of getting your own fermentor, bung and airlock. I'd also get your own auto-siphon and bottling bucket and bottling wand if you can manage the cost. These are the key items that come into contact with the beer on the cold side and if you can assure they are clean and sanitized.

I agree with everything @IslandLizard says in post #11 above but just for fun decided to check out John Palmer's howtobrew.com website and came across instructions for sanitizing with bleach. http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/a-crash-course-in-brewing/brew-day One thing about sanitizers is to make them proper strength and and use them with appropriate contact time. Again only clean gear can be sanitized so clean first, then rinse off the cleaning agent, then sanitize. For sanitizing with bleach according to Palmer this is 4mL chlorine bleach per liter with contact time (soak) of 20 minutes. The bleached items then should be rinsed in clean boiled water to remove bleach residue. For a new brewer I really like his checklist for equipment cleaning and sanitation at this link. Star-san IS much more convenient but either will work. Star-san's convenience comes from the fact it sanitizes in 1 minute (wet contact time) and doesn't need to be rinsed. Dilution for Star-san is 1 ounce per 5 gallons which I think is about 6ml/gal. I've used both and happily buy Star-san but would not be too worried about using bleach if I ran out in middle of a brew day.

Finally I'd suggest you stop opening the fermentor. I know all the instructions for beginners say take 2 samples three days apart and test gravity to make sure it is done fermenting but in your situation I would personally just wait three full weeks and then take a gravity sample and if in expected final gravity range I'd just bottle it then. I would take some care to clean the area you will do the bottling and again sanitize your bottling bucket, siphon, bottling wand and bottles. Try to keep your fermentor and bottling bucket protected from dust blowing around (that brewery dust is bad news for sure). Maybe drape a clean towel or plastic wrap over while transfering if the dust is unavoidable.

Sorry to have rambled on so long. Hope this helps.

 

[mongoose33]

The thing that sticks out in my mind is pellicle. If I'm not mistaken this is due to O2. The beer is protecting itself from the O2. Someone with more knowledge would be able to elaborate. Take your IPA for instance, not knowing what your grain bill was I'm gonna say it was oxidized by your description of the color. Hoppy beers are touchy when it comes to oxidation.

I have never heard of a pellicle forming as a mechanism for the beer to protect itself from oxygen. Do you have a source or something for this?

He's getting a pellicle because the beer is infected. Either it's infected due to the fermenter he's using, he's contaminating the beer between the boil and the fermenter, or he's got an airlock that isn't airlocking, and admitting things like fruit flies.

Oxidation may be an issue but that's not what's causing the infection. Contamination is.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm sure that rph guy can shine more light on it, but to my knowledge, oxygen exposure is not necessary for pellicle forming organisms to form a pellicle. Sometimes they do it and sometimes they don't. Looks like they do it more often with oxygen exposure but they also might do it without any exposure to oxygen.

Fun times.

 

[mongoose33]

OP: you need to go back to first principles. At the point your boil begins to be chilled, your beer is fine. You need to look at all the elements of the process from there forward.

What are you using for a chiller? My standard practice with an immersion chiller was to put it in the boiling wort to sanitize it 15 minutes before the end of the boil. How are you chilling, and what are you doing to ensure there's no contamination from that?

What about the tubing and such for transferring wort from kettle to fermenter? If you are using a siphon, is it clean and sanitized? If there's a ball valve, has anyone cleaned that, such as you?

Are the fermenters scratched on the inside? That's a great place for infections to take root. If there are multiple fermenters, maybe some are infected and some not, and that might explain your inconsistent results.

If you're using bleach, is it still effective? Bleach has a half-life. It should be effective in sanitizing, though not recommended due to the residual chlorine that may result. Switching to Star-San will not necessarily solve the problem.

All infections result from assuming something found out not to be true, from contaminated fermenters (I thought it was clean!) to ball valves (I never take it apart) to siphons or tubing to "I thought the airlock was working and keeping out fruit flies to....well, everything. So go through systematically and look at each place the chilled wort comes into contact with anything.

There is nothing necessarily wrong with a plastic fermenter provided it's been properly cared for. I'd agree with @burntchef and suggest you get your own fermenter, and clean it with care. There are plastic ones that are great.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Take off and nuke the site from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.

 

[Jag75]

I have never heard of a pellicle forming as a mechanism for the beer to protect itself from oxygen. Do you have a source or something for this?

He's getting a pellicle because the beer is infected. Either it's infected due to the fermenter he's using, he's contaminating the beer between the boil and the fermenter, or he's got an airlock that isn't airlocking, and admitting things like fruit flies.

Oxidation may be an issue but that's not what's causing the infection. Contamination is.

I dont have a link , I just remember reading somewhere that talked about o2 getting into a fermenter and the wild microbes or bugs feed off of the o2 . Do agree that OP has more then just oxidation going on for sure . Of course I may have misunderstood what I read

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have never heard of a pellicle forming as a mechanism for the beer to protect itself from oxygen. Do you have a source or something for this?

All you ever wanted to know about pellicles is here:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pellicle

TL;DR
It's presumed that pellicles only form in the presence of oxygen and also presumed it provides the microbes with a competitive advantage.

Generally only wild microbes can form pellicles, so yes, it indicates a contamination if only brewer's yeast was pitched.
Contamination and oxygen in the headspace are required.

Cheers

 

[Steamy]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

After reviewing and considering ive decided to start off with waiting until i can get my own buckets, bottle cane, bottling bucket and such.

I have a autosiphon already which i used for one of the infected beers, ill have to deep sanitize and clean it as soon as i can.
Ill get some cleaner as well as Star-san or something similar as well.

Im going to clean a bit in the brewing facility, especially the valves and such and only use my equipment after cooling the wort.
I plan on doing a small batch afterwards and sealing the lid to notice if anyone breaks the seal.
If i get another infection then, ill move it to my kitchen with only my equipment.

Does that sound like a viable plan?

The reason im not moving it to my kitchen yet is that then ill need my own brewpot and wort chiller.

On a side note i bottled the IPA and it actually seem drinkable after only a few days in conditioning. Bit of an off flavor but im hoping it will improve with conditioning. If i had dryhopped it a bit more id would definatly be a decent IPA. So maybe some of them will save on my beer budget for the next couple of months

 

[mongoose33]

All you ever wanted to know about pellicles is here:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pellicle

TL;DR
It's presumed that pellicles only form in the presence of oxygen and also presumed it provides the microbes with a competitive advantage.

Generally only wild microbes can form pellicles, so yes, it indicates a contamination if only brewer's yeast was pitched.
Contamination and oxygen in the headspace are required.

Cheers

Yeah, that reference above notes the hypothesis about the beer protecting itself from oxygen, but that's a pretty wacky hypothesis. If that were so, we'd never see oxidized beers! Besides, I don't think the beer is sentient.

Infections come due to contamination and conditions being right to support them.

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

After reviewing and considering ive decided to start off with waiting until i can get my own buckets, bottle cane, bottling bucket and such.

I have a autosiphon already which i used for one of the infected beers, ill have to deep sanitize and clean it as soon as i can.
Ill get some cleaner as well as Star-san or something similar as well.

Not sure what deep-sanitize means. I'm hoping that when you're finished using equipment, that's the point where you clean it and sanitize it, not waiting until next time or a couple hours later or something. Besides, it's always easier to clean equipment while it's still "fresh" and remnants of the brew are not dried on.

Im going to clean a bit in the brewing facility, especially the valves and such and only use my equipment after cooling the wort.

Cleaning is never bad; the valves should be taken apart and soaked in a cleaning solution. Don't know if you can get PBW (Powdered Brewery Wash) where you are, but it's excellent. Use it in 160-degree water and there's little than can resist that.

I plan on doing a small batch afterwards and sealing the lid to notice if anyone breaks the seal.
If i get another infection then, ill move it to my kitchen with only my equipment.

Do you just leave your beer there?

And there's another question I didn't see answered: what are you using for an airlock? And, how are you dealing with the wort chiller? How do you sanitize that?

Does that sound like a viable plan?

Better than what you have now. See my questions above.

The reason im not moving it to my kitchen yet is that then ill need my own brewpot and wort chiller.

On a side note i bottled the IPA and it actually seem drinkable after only a few days in conditioning. Bit of an off flavor but im hoping it will improve with conditioning. If i had dryhopped it a bit more id would definatly be a decent IPA. So maybe some of them will save on my beer budget for the next couple of months

If I were you, I'd brew simpler beers until I had the process down. The more moving parts in a recipe or process, the greater the likelihood of something happening.

If you follow a good process and an established decent recipe, it's impossible NOT to brew good beer.

Where people fail is that there's something wrong with either the process or the recipe--and it's usually the process. Things like sanitation or cleaning (you know that ), or mistiming hop additions, or boiling too long or not enough, or not controlling the temperature of the fermenting wort. In fact, if you asked most brewers here, they'd likely tell you that fermentation temp control was one of the huge leaps forward in their beer brewing.

So--how do you sanitize the chiller? Do you cover the kettle immediately upon removing the chiller from the kettle? How are you cleaning and sanitizing your siphon and tubing? Same with your fermenter and bottling bucket--cleaning and sanitizing process? How are you isolating the fermenting beer from ambient conditions, i.e., do you use an airlock? Is your fermenter a 6-gallon bucket with a loose lid? Are people looking at your fermenting beer while you're not there? (I get the idea of sealing the fermenter, good idea).

Some questions for you to consider.

 

[Steamy]

One other question actually. Since infections seem to be occurring later in the fermentation

Not sure what deep-sanitize means. I'm hoping that when you're finished using equipment, that's the point where you clean it and sanitize it, not waiting until next time or a couple hours later or something. Besides, it's always easier to clean equipment while it's still "fresh" and remnants of the brew are not dried on.



Cleaning is never bad; the valves should be taken apart and soaked in a cleaning solution. Don't know if you can get PBW (Powdered Brewery Wash) where you are, but it's excellent. Use it in 160-degree water and there's little than can resist that.



Do you just leave your beer there?

And there's another question I didn't see answered: what are you using for an airlock? And, how are you dealing with the wort chiller? How do you sanitize that?



Better than what you have now. See my questions above.



If I were you, I'd brew simpler beers until I had the process down. The more moving parts in a recipe or process, the greater the likelihood of something happening.

If you follow a good process and an established decent recipe, it's impossible NOT to brew good beer.

Where people fail is that there's something wrong with either the process or the recipe--and it's usually the process. Things like sanitation or cleaning (you know that ), or mistiming hop additions, or boiling too long or not enough, or not controlling the temperature of the fermenting wort. In fact, if you asked most brewers here, they'd likely tell you that fermentation temp control was one of the huge leaps forward in their beer brewing.

So--how do you sanitize the chiller? Do you cover the kettle immediately upon removing the chiller from the kettle? How are you cleaning and sanitizing your siphon and tubing? Same with your fermenter and bottling bucket--cleaning and sanitizing process? How are you isolating the fermenting beer from ambient conditions, i.e., do you use an airlock? Is your fermenter a 6-gallon bucket with a loose lid? Are people looking at your fermenting beer while you're not there? (I get the idea of sealing the fermenter, good idea).

Some questions for you to consider.

Thanks for the considerations!

I usually cleaned the wort chiller with spraying hot water and putting it in about 10m before the chill (although i found out 15m seems to be the standard).

I looked into PBW but its EXTREMELY expensive where im at, essentially all of the gear i had planned is the same price as that one cleaner. Does Caustic soda work by any chance? Or any other cheaper cleaner you can recommend?

 

[Miraculix]

I had ongoing infections and the only repeatedly reliable way was not to chill the wort but to dump it directly from the boiling pot into the fermenter, closing it and never open it again except for the yeast after it cools down on its own. The boiling wort and steam desinfects everything. Of course you have to make sure that your plastic can withstand the heat before dumping the boiling wort in!

 

[Jag75]

If your doing extract kits you could easily do it at your place without an immersion chiller. You only need to use 2 gallons in a pot for steeping and boiling , then use water out of cold gallon jugs from your fridge to top off to 5 gallon.

 

[Jag75]

Yeah, that reference above notes the hypothesis about the beer protecting itself from oxygen, but that's a pretty wacky hypothesis. If that were so, we'd never see oxidized beers! Besides, I don't think the beer is sentient.

Infections come due to contamination and conditions being right to support them.

Shots fired lol. Like I said I may have miss read/understood what I was reading . My bad

 

[mongoose33]

Shots fired lol. Like I said I may have miss read/understood what I was reading . My bad

There are no shots fired here. We're all here to learn. I think you should be glad to know that you probably DID read it somewhere, and didn't just dream it.

 

[IslandLizard]

I looked into PBW but its EXTREMELY expensive where im at, essentially all of the gear i had planned is the same price as that one cleaner. Does Caustic soda work by any chance? Or any other cheaper cleaner you can recommend?

PBW is already excessively expensive in the U.S. when bought in small (1 or 4 pound) containers. I can only imagine the unbelievable prices you're seeing.

Through our group grain buy we often buy a 50# bucket of PBW and split it among members. It comes out at about $3.60 a pound that way, which is still pushing it, IMO. But a tablespoon (or 2) in a gallon of warm/hot water works like a charm and 5 pounds lasts a long time that way. It can be reclaimed and reused, alas the released oxygen depletes fast.

I mentioned these alternative brewery cleaners, before:

Washing soda, (generic) Oxiclean (Sodium Percarbonate), (homemade) PBW,

Homemade PBW is 30% Sodium Metasilicate (sold in the U.S. as TSP/90) + 70% "Oxiclean."
Looking closer at the original brand's PBW MFDS, it seems to contain a fair amount of washing soda (Sodium Carbonate), and a small amount of other additions (EDTA and a wetting agent) one may never notice. So something like this should do it:

30% Sodium Metasilicate (TSP/90)
40% Sodium Percarbonate
30% Sodium Carbonate (washing soda, soda ash)​

The latter 2 is the basic makeup of "Oxiclean."

You could use regular TSP (TriSodium Phosphate) instead of TSP/90 (hardware store) if it's more available or much cheaper. TSP got a bad rep in the 70s for the phosphate content.

A mixture of Sodium Percarbonate and washing soda is sold here under the brand "Oxiclean" but also under many generic brands at around $2-3 a pound in larger tubs.
None of those are 100% pure Percarbonate, many contain 40% or more washing soda (Sodium Carbonate, soda ash), which the Percarbonate turns into after shedding its Oxygen when added to water.

Perhaps you can compound your own from those basic ingredients. I feel the oxygen component in PBW/Oxiclean is highly overrated, so aside for applications where the (homemade) PBW actually counts, I stick to using washing soda for most regular brewery cleaning. Washing soda runs around $1-1.50 a pound in big boxes. Most (old fashioned) powdered laundry detergent consists mainly of washing soda, but the fragrance and some other stuff that's added makes it unusable in a brewery.

Caustic Soda - Beware!
Very dangerous stuff!
Yes it can be used, pros do, but it's highly caustic. Even when highly diluted (1-5%), it dissolves the skin on contact and a small splatter (drop) in your eye can (and will) cause blindness if not treated immediately (thorough eyewashes then looked at and treated by a medical professional, ASAP).

Washing soda or homemade PBW are much safer and easier to use in day to day (home) brewery operations.
But contact with eyes is still dangerous if not treated, while prolonged contact with skin should be avoided.

 

[S-Met]

One thing I didn't see posted yet is your general recipe and process.
All grain vs extract.

While all of the above is useful info, we may be solving tomorrows problems but missing todays.

Also, consider small-batch in your kitchen. There is a whole sub-forum here of 1-gal brewers. You only get 8-10 beers per batch, but very achievable with limited home equipment. Then you can see if you still experience the problems or use to help sort out where the infections may be occurring. Additionally a 1 gal batch is more expensive per oz, but cheaper per batch - especially if it gets dumped.

As an experiment, maybe try fermenting a quart or more of apple juice. Just as a control group fermentation to see if you can narrow down the contamination source.

 

[TheMadKing]

What are you calling a pellicle? Do you have photos of it?

 

[IslandLizard]

Can you possibly say which country or region you're in? It may help us understand the dilemmas you're facing but also help us point to alternatives and resources.

Brew on premises outfits, like the one you're using can be mixed blessings. Relying on someone else's equipment and community usage can be challenging, although everything that gets boiled is pasteurized enough. It's the cold side equipment where problems may start, then compound.

Unwanted Brett can certainly play havoc with your fermentations in a place like that.

 

[Steamy]

Can you possibly say which country or region you're in? It may help us understand the dilemmas you're facing but also help us point to alternatives and resources.

Brew on premises outfits, like the one you're using can be mixed blessings. Relying on someone else's equipment and community usage can be challenging, although everything that gets boiled is pasteurized enough. It's the cold side equipment where problems may start, then compound.

Unwanted Brett can certainly play havoc with your fermentations in a place like that.

Scandinavia

 

[Steamy]

What are you calling a pellicle? Do you have photos of it?

Not my picture but prety much looks like that

 

[Steamy]

One thing I didn't see posted yet is your general recipe and process.
All grain vs extract.

While all of the above is useful info, we may be solving tomorrows problems but missing todays.

Also, consider small-batch in your kitchen. There is a whole sub-forum here of 1-gal brewers. You only get 8-10 beers per batch, but very achievable with limited home equipment. Then you can see if you still experience the problems or use to help sort out where the infections may be occurring. Additionally a 1 gal batch is more expensive per oz, but cheaper per batch - especially if it gets dumped.

As an experiment, maybe try fermenting a quart or more of apple juice. Just as a control group fermentation to see if you can narrow down the contamination source.

The recepies were all grain. an IPA at around 7% ABV from mostly pale malts, simco and citra hops, and a wheatbeer from pilsner and wheat malt with some saaz hops. I doubt the recepie is the problem since especially the wheatbeer tasted really good, then just got completely watered down after the pellicle formed.

The more i think about it, the more the plastic components make sense.

Ill consider it, but id rather just get my own 5 gallon equipment for a higher yield per brew. But ill consider to start with that as im wasting ingredients at this moment.

 

[Steamy]

PBW is already excessively expensive in the U.S. when bought in small (1 or 4 pound) containers. I can only imagine the unbelievable prices you're seeing.

Through our group grain buy we often buy a 50# bucket of PBW and split it among members. It comes out at about $3.60 a pound that way, which is still pushing it, IMO. But a tablespoon (or 2) in a gallon of warm/hot water works like a charm and 5 pounds lasts a long time that way. It can be reclaimed and reused, alas the released oxygen depletes fast.

I mentioned these alternative brewery cleaners, before:

Homemade PBW is 30% Sodium Metasilicate (sold in the U.S. as TSP/90) + 70% "Oxiclean."
Looking closer at the original brand's PBW MFDS, it seems to contain a fair amount of washing soda (Sodium Carbonate), and a small amount of other additions (EDTA and a wetting agent) one may never notice. So something like this should do it:

30% Sodium Metasilicate (TSP/90)
40% Sodium Percarbonate
30% Sodium Carbonate (washing soda, soda ash)​

The latter 2 is the basic makeup of "Oxiclean."

You could use regular TSP (TriSodium Phosphate) instead of TSP/90 (hardware store) if it's more available or much cheaper. TSP got a bad rep in the 70s for the phosphate content.

A mixture of Sodium Percarbonate and washing soda is sold here under the brand "Oxiclean" but also under many generic brands at around $2-3 a pound in larger tubs.
None of those are 100% pure Percarbonate, many contain 40% or more washing soda (Sodium Carbonate, soda ash), which the Percarbonate turns into after shedding its Oxygen when added to water.

Perhaps you can compound your own from those basic ingredients. I feel the oxygen component in PBW/Oxiclean is highly overrated, so aside for applications where the (homemade) PBW actually counts, I stick to using washing soda for most regular brewery cleaning. Washing soda runs around $1-1.50 a pound in big boxes. Most (old fashioned) powdered laundry detergent consists mainly of washing soda, but the fragrance and some other stuff that's added makes it unusable in a brewery.

Caustic Soda - Beware!
Very dangerous stuff!
Yes it can be used, pros do, but it's highly caustic. Even when highly diluted (1-5%), it dissolves the skin on contact and a small splatter (drop) in your eye can (and will) cause blindness if not treated immediately (thorough eyewashes then looked at and treated by a medical professional, ASAP).

Washing soda or homemade PBW are much safer and easier to use in day to day (home) brewery operations.
But contact with eyes is still dangerous if not treated, while prolonged contact with skin should be avoided.

Good information!
Ill look at some places to see if i can find that. Worst case scenario ill get the Caustic soda, some gloves and a mask.

 

[S-Met]

Good information!
Ill look at some places to see if i can find that. Worst case scenario ill get the Caustic soda, some gloves and a mask.

And goggles.

TSP or TSP90 are frequently found in the USA in hardware supply stores and sometimes paint shops. It's a great cleaner.

 

[IslandLizard]

Worst case scenario ill get the Caustic soda

I really need to urge you to stay away from caustic soda (NaOH or KOH).
I'm serious, there are much more suitable, friendlier cleaners commonly available that get the job done just as well, and much safer.

As I said before, washing soda (Sodium Carbonate) is fine for 99% of most general brewery equipment cleaning. If you can get and add some TSP or TSP/90 it will fortify its action, working quicker, more thoroughly, especially when hot.

Other cleaning materials that come in handy:

• A stiff non-scratching nylon hand brush.
• Non-scratching nylon scouring pads (ScotchBrite type and generics). The soft ones can be used inside plastic vessels.
• BarKeepers Friend (BKF). It's a non-scratching oxalic acid based scouring powder, good for cleaning up tarnishes, beerstone, etc. on stainless steel, while re-passivating it.
• Various size brushes to clean inside tubing, valves, threaded connections, etc.

 

[deeve007]

If you want to brew at home on the cheap, this blog post got me started on how to do that: https://homebrewanswers.com/minimum-equipment-all-grain-brew/

And because I only have a 16L pot and didn't want to purchase a bigger one, I split my grains in half and soak/boil in two batches, combining into fermenter, and it's worked really well for the past two brews doing it this way.

 

[Miraculix]

If you want to brew at home on the cheap, this blog post got me started on how to do that: https://homebrewanswers.com/minimum-equipment-all-grain-brew/

And because I only have a 16L pot and didn't want to purchase a bigger one, I split my grains in half and soak/boil in two batches, combining into fermenter, and it's worked really well for the past two brews doing it this way.

What I was doing a lot in the past, was just boiling a higher gravity than the final wort should have and then thinning it out with water when it went into the fermenter. I lost a bit of efficiency this way but gained some time overall. You just have to adjust for different hop utilisation due to higher gravity when boiled, that's all.