Infected equipment

[MR BEER]

I recently had a badly infected batch. ( I haven't figured out why) I discarded the auto racking cane and plastic pail. The beer has sat in the sanke keg for a few months. I want to reuse the keg and would like to know the best way to clean and sanitize it. I would like to soak in bleach but don't know how much bleach to use and how long to soak. Anyone gone thru this and have an answer?

 

[day_trippr]

A disinfecting bleach bomb would be appropriate but try not to do extended "soaking" when using bleach on stainless steel.

I would remove and discard all five O-rings then hit the keg with the long dip tube inside with a strong bleach solution - 800 ppm would do it - for a short duration - like ten minutes. Put the lid, posts and poppets, and the gas dip tube in a bowl with more of the same solution for the same duration. Then rinse everything thoroughly and reassemble with fresh O-rings...

Cheers!

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

I recently had a badly infected batch. ( I haven't figured out why) I discarded the auto racking cane and plastic pail. The beer has sat in the sanke keg for a few months. I want to reuse the keg and would like to know the best way to clean and sanitize it. I would like to soak in bleach but don't know how much bleach to use and how long to soak. Anyone gone thru this and have an answer?

Does your Sanke keg have ball lock posts on it or the standard spear tube? If it's ball lock you can clean it as day tripper has mentioned.

I would run a hot PBW solution through everything, let it soak, flush again then rinse several times. After all that flush with sanitizer, bleach works too just mix it to the proper proportions.

 

[sibelman]

This from Clorox could be of some use, though they call for higher concentrations than @day_trippr 's 800ppm, and shorter contact times. Of course, they're not thinking about stainless steel's vulnerability to destruction by bleach.

Anyhow, this simplifies calculating your desired dilution.

 

[mac_1103]

There's a reason that bleach is used for disinfection in bio labs all the way up to BSL-4. At the correct concentration and contact time it will kill almost any microbe, the exception being certain bacterial spores. We always used a 1:10 dilution which is a much higher concentration than what is recommended for household use. This shortens contact time substantially.

 

[hotbeer]

I use chlorine bleach too mixed at the higher concentrations that Clorox gives. And even a little higher with a 1/2 cup to five gallons water.

On stainless you don't want to soak it overnight. But I have routinely left stainless soaking in bleach solutions for 2 hours with no bad affect on the finish. And that's much longer than the 5 to 6 minutes they claim is needed for a lesser concentration of a 1/3 cup to 5 gallons.

And if you note Clorox's caution at the bottom of the chart for a 2000 ppm solution, they don't include Stainless steel.

Do not use on aluminum, chipped or cracked enamel, copper, brass, silver or unsealed wood, marble, tile or granite.

Because if you go by their times, it's no issue at all for SS.

 

[ncbrewer]

Lately I've been seeing "concentrated" bleach on the shelves. What I have now is 7.5%. Not sure, but I think the old standard was 5.?. I'm guessing the ratios that have used are based on the old standard.

One question. I haven't had to disinfect stainless, but would near boiling water work, without the question about corrosion?

 

[mac_1103]

Household bleach products can be anywhere from 3 - 8%. Standard strength always used to be 5.25%, and extra strength 6.5%.

would near boiling water work

Yeah, but we're talking about a keg. Might not be the easiest/safest to fill with near boiling water, and might not be great for the seals.

 

[tracer bullet]

For that dip tube I'd consider hitting it with a long skinny brush designed for that kind of job (it's useful all the time for this), or even just replacing the thing. If you use a racking cane typically, get a dip tube when you buy the new cane, they're both funny to ship due to the size and maybe you can save a buck. Or visit your LHBS of course.

Contact with bleach may be enough but I'd feel better for my own equipment to give it a little physical action as well.

 

[fluketamer]

i agree . dont fill a keg with boiling water or any all metal container with or without a lid you are asking for scalding.

would oxyclean work to disinfect. i find its easier to rinse off the oxy than getting rid of the smell of bleach . for some reason i feel oxy cleans everything. i hit my equipment up with oxy every few uses and it seems to have kept the infections at bay.

and plus one on the dip tube change out or rearming .

 

[MaxStout]

Boiling water may not evenly heat all the nooks and crannies. Better to go the disinfectant route (i.e., bleach solution) and give it enough dwell time to kill the bugs.

 

[mac_1103]

Oxyclean isn't a disinfectant. OTOH, we all know how important it is to clean thoroughly before you try to sanitize.

 

[DuncB]

After the bleach is it appropriate to rinse well then PBW to ensure residual odour removed before fresh starsan?

 

[mac_1103]

After the bleach is it appropriate to rinse well then PBW to ensure residual odour removed before fresh starsan?

Definitely want to rinse very well. Airing it out should take care of the odor.

 

[fluketamer]

Oxyclean isn't a disinfectant. OTOH, we all know how important it is to clean thoroughly before you try to sanitize.

thanks mac. i sometimes incorrectly think of sanitizers vs cleaners vs disinfectants as interchangable even though i know they are not.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/what-sanitisers-and-cleaners-are-used.43688/

 

[MR BEER]

Thanks for the answers. I had no idea on the amount of bleach or the soaking times. I do know that it will damage stainless if overdone. My sanke has the long sphere. I guess I will fill the keg and tap it to pump some bleach mix thru the whole thing. I will also roll the keg around so all surfaces are coated.

 

[sampling6391]

What was it infected with? Mold, bacteria, and yeast infections would prompt me to go with different strategies. The last resort I would ever use would be chlorine bleach. It’s pretty difficult to wash out chlorine bleach completely.

Caustic cleaner like PBW is a good product. though more expensive, I’ve used kegerator cleaning liquids as well to soak decommissioned Firestone kegs previously used for cold brew or heaven knows what sometimes and has worked amazingly.

Mixing in the max recommended strength with as hot water as I can get out of the tap then letting the solution work overnight followed by several thorough rinses with hot water made every stainless surface shine beautifully with no more weird rotten coffee smells. As said above replacing the seals is a good idea too.

 

[mac_1103]

The last resort I would ever use would be chlorine bleach. It’s pretty difficult to wash out chlorine bleach completely.

I don't get this at all. I use dilute chlorine bleach all the time and have no trouble washing it out. Once diluted to working concentrations, it decomposes to salt and water pretty quickly. That's why it has to be made fresh to be effective.

 

[sibelman]

getting rid of the smell of bleach

difficult to wash out chlorine bleach completely

Bleach is an amazingly poewrful and inexpensive disinfectant/sanitizer and cleaner. It's toxic, and can destroy steel, but proper dilution and timing mitigate those risks (though not the downstream effects on waterways and wildlife).

Getting rid of bleach odor can feel uncertain -- sometimes the room smells like bleach, making it a bit hard to tell if the kettle (or carboy, or whatever) has been adequately rinsed. Back when I used bleach regularly, I found that three thorough rinses does the trick.

 

[mac_1103]

downstream effects on waterways and wildlife

Again, it decomposes quickly once diluted. If you're using a large volume, just wait a few days before you dump it down the drain.

 

[Broken Crow]

Though I haven't used beach on my brewing gear, years ago I got a bunch of free kitchen stuff that I did use on it. On smelling the bleach afterward, on a whim I dissolved some baking soda in hot water and flushed everything out with it... No more bleach smell.

 

[beren]

A disinfecting bleach bomb would be appropriate but try not to do extended "soaking" when using bleach on stainless steel.

I would remove and discard all five O-rings then hit the keg with the long dip tube inside with a strong bleach solution - 800 ppm would do it - for a short duration - like ten minutes. Put the lid, posts and poppets, and the gas dip tube in a bowl with more of the same solution for the same duration. Then rinse everything thoroughly and reassemble with fresh O-rings...

Cheers!

Don’t forget a slightly acidic solution increases disinfectant power like 100x

 

[DuncB]

No one has mentioned iodine as an option. Provided the vessel is clean it can be an effective option. It will stain plastic though.

 

[mac_1103]

No one has mentioned iodine as an option.

Yeah, I think that if I had a really stubborn infection I would probably hit it with multiple different sanitizers in succession. I also seem to recall reading somewhere that rotating sanitizers is considered a best practice by some.

 

[sibelman]

rotating sanitizers is considered a best practice

This makes sense. Too, some recommend that tough cleaning problems can best be addressed by alternating between acidic and alkaline cleaners. Not at the same time though, I wouldn't think; that seems likely to somewhat neutralize both.

 

[hotbeer]

After using chlorine bleach, I rinse everything very well and then let if drip in the drain board as much as wants to drip off. Usually this is just before brewing so I just go right into my normal sanitation routine with iodophor. I haven't had any issues with any residual chlorine giving me band-aid or other off flavors. If any bleach was remaining in the drops remaining on or in the stuff I used the chlorine bleach in, then the soak in the iodophor solution, or what ever your normal sanitizer is will certainly take care of diluting it further and make it too few a ppm to be any issue.

If you just spray your sanitizer on, well, then that's for you to decide whether the dilution of any possible remaining chlorine is good enough.

 

[mac_1103]

If you just spray your sanitizer on, well, then that's for you to decide whether the dilution of any possible remaining chlorine is good enough.

Bleach is most definitely NOT a no-rinse sanitizer.

 

[DuncB]

Just thinking a rinse round with some dilute sodium metabisulphate is what I use to neutralise the chlorine in my brew water. Not sure if it would work for hypochlorite.

 

[mac_1103]

I think it should work, since I'm pretty sure that the majority of the residual chlorine in drinking water is hypochlorite. But you'd be dealing with a much higher concentration in this situation.

 

[beren]

Bleach is most definitely NOT a no-rinse sanitizer.

It is if it's mixed with vinegar. Even the founders of 5 star say it's more effective than starsan but it doesn't last long in solution. There are multiple threads about it on here, like this one: Bleach and vinegar solution danger

 

[mac_1103]

Acidifying a dilute bleach solution stabilizes the hypochlorite, so how does adding vinegar make it safe to not rinse?

 

[sampling6391]

I don't get this at all. I use dilute chlorine bleach all the time and have no trouble washing it out. Once diluted to working concentrations, it decomposes to salt and water pretty quickly. That's why it has to be made fresh to be effective.

I think it is just unnecessary with the availability of cleaners that do a better job of actually cleaning in my experience and are much easier to use and rinse out.

 

[mac_1103]

I think it is just unnecessary with the availability of cleaners that do a better job of actually cleaning in my experience and are much easier to use and rinse out.

Most cleaners are not disinfectants and most disinfectants are not cleaners. The topic of this thread is an infected keg, so clearly something more than cleaning is necessary.

 

[sampling6391]

Most cleaners are not disinfectants and most disinfectants are not cleaners. The topic of this thread is an infected keg, so clearly something more than cleaning is necessary.

Yes I agree, cleaning and sanitizing go hand in hand. Can’t sanitize something that isn’t clean.

 

[beren]

I think it is just unnecessary with the availability of cleaners that do a better job of actually cleaning in my experience and are much easier to use and rinse out.

That’s not how it works. The acidic bleach solution is one of the most effective sanitizers that exists and is also no rinse.

 

[sampling6391]

That’s not how it works. The acidic bleach solution is one of the most effective sanitizers that exists and is also no rinse.

I was also talking about there being better caustic cleaners out there than chlorine bleach. I would not recommend anyone mix acid and bleach it produces toxic gas

 

[DuncB]

That’s not how it works. The acidic bleach solution is one of the most effective sanitizers that exists and is also no rinse.

Having read this article I can see why.
https://www.healthline.com/health/bleach-and-vinegar#what-happens-when-vinegar-is-mixed-with-bleach
Mixing acid and bleach is chemical warfare it seems, so no surprise it's effective.

 

[hotbeer]

If you just spray your sanitizer on, well, then that's for you to decide whether the dilution of any possible remaining chlorine is good enough.

Bleach is most definitely NOT a no-rinse sanitizer.

I didn't think that I implied bleach is a no-rinse sanitizer. Maybe I should have been more clear about the sanitizer I referenced in the statement you quoted. That sanitizer is iodophor, star-san or any of the other no-rinse sanitizers we use normally in beer making as was referenced in the paragraph above that you didn't quote.

 

[mac_1103]

You did say "remaining chlorine" hence my confusion.