Years long infections

[depecid]

So this will be a long post as I’ve been through the ringer with this one.

I posted on a forum a while ago about some weird off flavours I was getting. That was probably a year ago and it’s still happening.

Most times when I brew a beer I get a nice clean fermentation until the yeast drops out. Then, right on cue, a very slight Sulfur smell creeps in. It isn’t rotten eggs Sulfur, but it’s there. The beer will form signs of the start of a pellicle but as it’s in a co2 rich pressure fermenter it never fully forms. The taste is always the same, caramel sweetness. I’m assuming this is diacetyl from the infection.

I bought a new all rounder pressure fermenter, it came back.

I bought a new pill housing for my pill hydrometer. Didn’t work.

I left the pill out all together, still there.

I no chill at 17 litres and top up with filtered water, so I tried boiling the water and using glass flasks to add the water with rather than my plastic jug. Nope.

This is happening before packaging, and I guess it must be happening after cubing otherwise it would ferment in the cube (and I’ll leave them for weeks before pitching).

The other strange thing is when I pour from my tap, the first warmer pour always smells sulfury, but the next pour doesn’t.

I’ve had problems with black mould spots forming in my fermentation fridge, and on my cubes. I’ve tried cleaning the fridge with starsan, soapy water, and 70% alcohol, but they always come back slowly.

So today I noticed a small black spot on the lid of my cube, so I pulled the seal out and bleached them. Then I thought maybe I should probably bleach my cube (I always spray a bit of sanitizer on top before pouring into the fermenter). To my amazement and horror, it turned pink immediately. The top and the sides, bleeding pink… on all three of my empty cubes. So I sprayed inside my fermentation fridge, it too went pink on almost every internal surface.

Has anyone heard of this before? My latest theory is when I pour in my wort it’s dragging bits of whatever bacteria is on the cube in with it. There isn’t a visible film or anything anywhere, other than the random black dot of mould.

So anyway, now I have another 22L of caramel flavoured centennial pale ale to dump.

To top it all off I’ve been fighting an unknown gut issue for a year, which could be linked. I’ve had all the tests, with no conclusions.

Anyway, I’m on commercial beer for a few weeks while I brew a new batch and it’ll be interesting to see if it cures me.

Let me know your thoughts.
Cheers guys.

 

[JohnSand]

I also fought persistent infections. In the end I think it was my bottling sanitation. Have you asked anyone to confirm the taste? Sometimes brewers are overly critical of their own product.

 

[marc1]

Can you lay out your process?

I looked at your post history, and you didn't ask for help here about it, so we've got no idea where you might be going wrong.

Caramel sweetness seems more like oxidation to me than infection, but without knowing more it's just wild guessing.

 

[IslandLizard]

This is happening before packaging, and I guess it must be happening after cubing otherwise it would ferment in the cube (and I’ll leave them for weeks before pitching).

My emphasis^
Are you saying you're leaving the wort in the no-chill cube for weeks before pitching (yeast)?

 

[hotbeer]

I don't think sanitation is your big issue for the sulfur smell. Yeast make hydrogen hydrogen sulfide to various degrees depending on the exact strain. Lager yeast tend to make more I think. But under normal brewing the smells disappear with time. If you've been using the same strain of yeast, then change to something else.

You know whether the water you use has sulfur compounds in it or not and if it does what ppm it is, don't you?

Perhaps you are more sensitive to sulfur smells or perhaps you are misidentifying the smell. And if that's the case, then I too have to wonder what's going on between the time you put it in the cube and when you pitch. Why are you waiting so long?

 

[depecid]

I also fought persistent infections. In the end I think it was my bottling sanitation. Have you asked anyone to confirm the taste? Sometimes brewers are overly critical of their own product.

Only my wife. She agreed on the "butter menthol" type flavour.

The thing for me is that I've had different grain bills, yeasts, and hop combos end up tasting identical.

I did think maybe this is just how it's supposed to taste, but it's oddly offputting and I don't enjoy them despite trying to power through it.

 

[marc1]

Only my wife. She agreed on the "butter menthol" type flavour.

The thing for me is that I've had different grain bills, yeasts, and hop combos end up tasting identical.

I did think maybe this is just how it's supposed to taste, but it's oddly offputting and I don't enjoy them despite trying to power through it.

"Butter menthol" is not in your initial post, that said "caramel sweetness". Which is it (or both)?

 

[depecid]

"Butter menthol" is not in your initial post, that said "caramel sweetness". Which is it (or both)?

It's both I guess. Caramel and butter menthol are similar to me, butter menthol having a butterscotch like flavour... which is a type of caramel.

 

[depecid]

Can you lay out your process?

I looked at your post history, and you didn't ask for help here about it, so we've got no idea where you might be going wrong.

Caramel sweetness seems more like oxidation to me than infection, but without knowing more it's just wild guessing.

No i posted on a Facebook group. I got a lot of comments about Sulphur relating to lagers but no one really had any clues about my issue.

I remember my first brew when it popped up (2-3 years ago). I ended up having a few in a row that were so Sulphury to me I would drop copper into the beer to try and scrub it out. I couldn't handle the egg burps. It worked, but made me paranoid I was poisoning myself so i stopped.

My process is:

Beer comes out, then I soak my FV and dip tube/fittings in Sodium Perc. Scrub with silicone sponge, rinse well and put away in fermenting fridge until needed.

Soak FV and fittings in star san for 15 mins or so, then put fittings together and empty star san into a jug with my pill, scissors, yeast for later.

Fill FV with required filtered top up water, put the lid on and carry out to the shed.

Spray cube top with star san, open up, and empty into 3L jug a bit at a time and top up FV with wort. (I think this is the contamination point. It does drip down the sides of the cube as it's so full its unavoidable)

Chuck pill in FV, open yeast and pitch, close up and lift into fridge.

Put spunding valve on set to about 2-3 psi.

Day 8 or so, yeast drops out and sulfur creeps in.

 

[depecid]

My emphasis^
Are you saying you're leaving the wort in the no-chill cube for weeks before pitching (yeast)?

Oh yea, sometimes months. I mean, you buy fresh worts here in Australia that can be over a year old. If there was a contamination it would explode before i got to use it (I've had that twice now)

 

[depecid]

I don't think sanitation is your big issue for the sulfur smell. Yeast make hydrogen hydrogen sulfide to various degrees depending on the exact strain. Lager yeast tend to make more I think. But under normal brewing the smells disappear with time. If you've been using the same strain of yeast, then change to something else.

You know whether the water you use has sulfur compounds in it or not and if it does what ppm it is, don't you?

Perhaps you are more sensitive to sulfur smells or perhaps you are misidentifying the smell. And if that's the case, then I too have to wonder what's going on between the time you put it in the cube and when you pitch. Why are you waiting so long?

Because i like to do a brew day and knock out a few batches. Then when i'm ready i can just put a brew down.

I use two stage filtered water, but it's not RO. I do have a water report i work off when doing my additions.

 

[mashdar]

I can't speak you commercial packaged wort; it's likely pressure pasteurized or acidified.

From a food safety perspective, leaving wort for weeks is sketchy. Normal boiling temperatures will not kill all spores. The two options are acidification or pressure pasturizing to 250F.

Are the cubes kept refrigerated? (Does not eliminate the need for acid, but improves the situation a bit.)

Yeast drops pH to a safe level very quickly.

 

[marc1]

Oh yea, sometimes months. I mean, you buy fresh worts here in Australia that can be over a year old. If there was a contamination it would explode before i got to use it (I've had that twice now)

I looked up Australian food standards, because I've heard about these fresh wort kits before, and wanted to know what the deal was.

Here's a PDF the of food standards, from the gov.au site:
https://www.foodstandards.gov.au/si...ood Australia_edn 4 whole book - 271123_0.pdf

p. 198:
"Potentially hazardous foods are generally moist, nutrient-rich foods with a neutral pH." Wort is slightly acidic, but not enough to prevent the growth of nasties, and nutrient-rich and has plenty of water, so it is potentially hazardous.

What pH might there be an issue with?
p. 209 gives info in processes - the pH would need to be below 4.6 or canned at 121C (~250F)

So I would hope that the commercial packagers are dropping the pH below 4.6 (to prevent botulism) and packaging things such that other microorganisms are killed off. The fact that you've had purchased cubes grow things is pretty concerning. Did the bad cubes get reported to health authorities?

If you're doing this yourself and not dropping the pH before storing wort at room temperature, you may want to consider doing this. Or brew with it much quicker (maybe cool it overnight, but get it going the next day).

 

[IslandLizard]

Oh yea, sometimes months. I mean, you buy fresh worts here in Australia that can be over a year old. If there was a contamination it would explode before i got to use it (I've had that twice now)

Just for comparison, can you start pitching yeast as soon as the wort has chilled to pitching temps? And definitely within 24-36 hours after brewing. Just to remove possible "spoilage" factors from your process? Then see/taste if the resulting beer is any better?

What yeast(s) are you using?
Always fresh, factory packaged yeast, or also saved out yeast from previous batches?
Do you control/regulate fermentation temps?

My latest theory is when I pour in my wort it’s dragging bits of whatever bacteria is on the cube in with it.

Before you pour the wort into your fermenter, first clean (Sodium Percarbonate should be fine), then sanitize the top of that cube, especially the area around the spout.

And don't let any sanitizer from the outside of the cube go into your fermenter. For that, use a clean (wash)cloth, soaked in sanitizer, then squeezed out until just damp, to mop up any larger liquid puddles and drips.

 

[depecid]

I can't speak you commercial packaged wort; it's likely pressure pasteurized or acidified.

From a food safety perspective, leaving wort for weeks is sketchy. Normal boiling temperatures will not kill all spores. The two options are acidification or pressure pasturizing to 250F.

Are the cubes kept refrigerated? (Does not eliminate the need for acid, but improves the situation a bit.)

Yeast drops pH to a safe level very quickly.

The cubes generally sit in my fermentation fridge at whatever its set to currently. My local home brew shop has dozens of these sitting on the shop floor for months at a time.

I was always under the impression that I'm putting a just off the boil liquid into a cube that's air tight and therefore pasturized.

I know everyone seems focused on the cube process being the issue, but there's a clear indication when the wort is infected... it bubbles and ferments. It always smells clean when I open it, just like wort. I've had left over wort that wouldn't fit in the cube before, and tried putting it in a glass flask with glad wrap. Within a few days it gets strands and smells like soil, as the bacteria takes hold.

 

[depecid]

I looked up Australian food standards, because I've heard about these fresh wort kits before, and wanted to know what the deal was.

Here's a PDF the of food standards, from the gov.au site:
https://www.foodstandards.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-11/Safe Food Australia_edn 4 whole book - 271123_0.pdf

p. 198:
"Potentially hazardous foods are generally moist, nutrient-rich foods with a neutral pH." Wort is slightly acidic, but not enough to prevent the growth of nasties, and nutrient-rich and has plenty of water, so it is potentially hazardous.

What pH might there be an issue with?
p. 209 gives info in processes - the pH would need to be below 4.6 or canned at 121C (~250F)

So I would hope that the commercial packagers are dropping the pH below 4.6 (to prevent botulism) and packaging things such that other microorganisms are killed off. The fact that you've had purchased cubes grow things is pretty concerning. Did the bad cubes get reported to health authorities?

If you're doing this yourself and not dropping the pH before storing wort at room temperature, you may want to consider doing this. Or brew with it much quicker (maybe cool it overnight, but get it going the next day).

I would imagine dropping the wort to such a low pH before fermentation would be problematic. Next time I buy a packaged cube I'll test it and see what they come out at. I'll also ask my local shop how their own cube are packaged.

 

[depecid]

Just for comparison, can you start pitching yeast as soon as the wort has chilled to pitching temps? And definitely within 24-36 hours after brewing. Just to remove possible "spoilage" factors from your process? Then see/taste if the resulting beer is any better?

What yeast(s) are you using?
Always fresh, factory packaged yeast, or also saved out yeast from previous batches?
Do you control/regulate fermentation temps?


Before you pour the wort into your fermenter, first clean (Sodium Percarbonate should be fine), then sanitize the top of that cube, especially the area around the spout.

And don't let any sanitizer from the outside of the cube go into your fermenter. For that, use a clean (wash)cloth, soaked in sanitizer, then squeezed out until just damp, to mop up any larger liquid puddles and drips.

All great trouble shooting tips. I have 3 grain bags ready for my upcoming long weekend ready to brew.

I'll try and use my wort chiller for one, and pitch immediately (which I've never done).

Another I'll do as I always do, taking great care to clean the cube before use.

The last I'll brew up the day before I need it and pitch as soon as it's down to pitching temp.

That should give me 3 good samples to work off.

Something else I've failed to mention is it's generally the xpa/ipa/pale ale beers that have the issue. I make Belgian beers too, and sometimes I'll get a pellicle without any noticeable flavour change.

I have tried lots of different yeasts, mostly dry. Us-05, bry-97, verdant, new england... all within date and correct pitching rates. Usual fermentation temp is 18c until almost terminal then bump to 20-21c.

 

[IslandLizard]

Another I'll do as I always do, taking great care to clean the cube before use.
[...]
That should give me 3 good samples to work off.

You don't have to do that as a test, you already have plenty of samples of what those end up tasting/smelling like.

Time will degrade hop flavor and aroma, especially unwanted in beers such as Pale Ales and IPAs. So does oxygen, and it's very difficult to fill those cubes without incorporating air into the wort. Then there's the question how oxygen impermeable the those cubes are. That can play an even bigger role when stored for longer times, such as several months.

 

[marc1]

I've had left over wort that wouldn't fit in the cube before, and tried putting it in a glass flask with glad wrap. Within a few days it gets strands and smells like soil, as the bacteria takes hold.

In this situation, did you sanitize the glass flask first? If you did, and it still went off, then there's something going on with your transfer process that is contaminating everything. Lots of airborne particles, maybe?

 

[depecid]

"Potentially hazardous foods are generally moist, nutrient-rich foods with a neutral pH." Wort is slightly acidic, but not enough to prevent the growth of nasties, and nutrient-rich and has plenty of water, so it is potentially hazardous.

What pH might there be an issue with?
p. 209 gives info in processes - the pH would need to be below 4.6 or canned at 121C (~250F)

I just found a similar bit of text that then continues to say "And, if the food is heated to 185 °F (85 °C) for 5 minutes before serving, the botulinum toxin will be denatured, and the food is generally considered safe."

So i would like to think the 60 minutes of boiling should eliminate this risk.

That's not to say it wasn't chilling on the outside of my cube, though.

 

[depecid]

You don't have to do that as a test, you already have plenty of samples of what those end up tasting/smelling like.

Hah, agreed, however I've never bleached the outside and watched it turn pink before.... id like to have another go without the potential bacteria dripping down the sides into my FV.

 

[depecid]

In this situation, did you sanitize the glass flask first? If you did, and it still went off, then there's something going on with your transfer process that is contaminating everything. Lots of airborne particles, maybe?

Yes I did sanitize it first. My only assumption was that it had suck back as it cooled, being only cling film covering the top.

Also my wort does not smell like that when i open the cube, it smells clean and sweet like any commercial wort I've bought.

My current batch I even went so far as to pour the wort and pitch whilst in the kitchen (instead of my shed, where my fermentation fridge is), to try and prevent anything getting in. Carrying a full all-rounder across the yard isn't fun.

A bit off topic, but one of the reasons i do this is for a double brew day. Less clean up, and i brew when i have time. Also, i visit the LHBS less and just buy two or three grain bags at a time.
How long is cracked grain acceptable to store? I would assume it would lose freshness pretty quickly?

 

[mashdar]

I just found a similar bit of text that then continues to say "And, if the food is heated to 185 °F (85 °C) for 5 minutes before serving, the botulinum toxin will be denatured, and the food is generally considered safe."

So i would like to think the 60 minutes of boiling should eliminate this risk.

That's not to say it wasn't chilling on the outside of my cube, though.

Yes, if you boil your beer for 5 minutes prior to serving, you will denature botulinum toxin. You are not boiling your beer prior to serving (unless you have a very unusual method of drinking beer).

Botulinum spores survive boiling, then grow and produce a potent neurotoxin. The toxin is easy to break down with cooking immediately before serving, but the spores are tough to kill.

There are also a lot of heat-stable toxins that other bugs make. That's why you can't just cook spoiled food to make it good again. But botulism is worlds more dangerous, so that's the general focus.

 

[hotbeer]

If you are getting sulfur smells in amounts to be annoying to most noses, then you must be introducing sulfur somewhere. The yeast may bring some with them, but they can't create sulfur compounds that are annoying if there isn't sulfur somewhere in their system.

If you are using well water and filtering it, then did the report show anything that will have sulfur in it. But lab reports on indicate what came out of the well that particular day. It can change.

You might try to brew with some bottled water of any kind you can get a analysis from their website for to base your decisions on what other water additions to make. If you still have the sulfur smells then you can be fairly certain it's not the water.

Sulfur if present in your water isn't easy to remove entirely using most common filters. Even home and other low cost RO systems will pass some sulfur from what I've read so far.

Still, is what you are say is a sulfur smell/taste the butter menthol smell your spouse perceives? In no way would I think sulfur smell/taste and butter menthol smell/taste are the same.

 

[marc1]

I just found a similar bit of text that then continues to say "And, if the food is heated to 185 °F (85 °C) for 5 minutes before serving, the botulinum toxin will be denatured, and the food is generally considered safe."

So i would like to think the 60 minutes of boiling should eliminate this risk.

That's not to say it wasn't chilling on the outside of my cube, though.

Aren't you putting it into the cube after the boil? The cube is where the problem is.

If botulism spores activate in the cube (because boiling does not kill them) they will make the toxin.

Even boiling it afterwards (if it is in fact contaminated) to make it safe is not a great idea. The toxin is extremely strong, aerosolization/splattering from pouring could get you.

Luckily it seems that this is not a common situation, or there'd be a rash of poisoned and dead Australian homebrewers.

 

[marc1]

Yes I did sanitize it first. My only assumption was that it had suck back as it cooled, being only cling film covering the top.

Also my wort does not smell like that when i open the cube, it smells clean and sweet like any commercial wort I've bought.

My current batch I even went so far as to pour the wort and pitch whilst in the kitchen (instead of my shed, where my fermentation fridge is), to try and prevent anything getting in. Carrying a full all-rounder across the yard isn't fun.

A bit off topic, but one of the reasons i do this is for a double brew day. Less clean up, and i brew when i have time. Also, i visit the LHBS less and just buy two or three grain bags at a time.
How long is cracked grain acceptable to store? I would assume it would lose freshness pretty quickly?

Something about the conditions in that room, or your sanitization process, is bad for brewing. Suckback under cling film should not cause wort to go off that quickly.

 

[depecid]

If you are getting sulfur smells in amounts to be annoying to most noses, then you must be introducing sulfur somewhere. The yeast may bring some with them, but they can't create sulfur compounds that are annoying if there isn't sulfur somewhere in their system.

If you are using well water and filtering it, then did the report show anything that will have sulfur in it. But lab reports on indicate what came out of the well that particular day. It can change.

You might try to brew with some bottled water of any kind you can get a analysis from their website for to base your decisions on what other water additions to make. If you still have the sulfur smells then you can be fairly certain it's not the water.

Sulfur if present in your water isn't easy to remove entirely using most common filters. Even home and other low cost RO systems will pass some sulfur from what I've read so far.

Still, is what you are say is a sulfur smell/taste the butter menthol smell your spouse perceives? In no way would I think sulfur smell/taste and butter menthol smell/taste are the same.

I use town water that goes through a two stage filter. My only aim with that is to remove the chlorine.

My local water report (Which is only an average, but good enough for me) says an average of 31mg/L. I have no idea how to interpret that into anything useful.

The sulfur that gets introduced at the end of fermentation seems to be hard to get rid of, but I have managed it before (unintentionally) by leaving the keg out for weeks whilst I pitched some fresh yeast trying to get rid of the perceived butter menthol/caramel flavour. It remained, but the sulfur was gone.

The sulfur is noticeable when the beer is warm... that is straight out of the spunding valve in the fermenter (when finished) OR the first warm pour out of my kegerator. The following cold pour has no sulfur I can detect.

The caramel issue is more of an issue of flavour. But, if I leave a beer out for hours (which I've done as a test) the caramel smell and flavour gets really strong.

 

[depecid]

Something about the conditions in that room, or your sanitization process, is bad for brewing. Suckback under cling film should not cause wort to go off that quickly.

I agree. I do take every precaution I can think of.... and I have a clean house with no visible mould issues.

Something that does come to mind is I don't always make up a fresh batch of sanitizer for small jobs. Always when pitching a new beer, but for tasting samples for example I have a made up bottle of starsan that I'll hold on to for a month or so before refreshing it.

 

[JohnSand]

I don't think it's the Starsan, I keep mine for several months.

 

[ncbrewer]

All I can add is that I commend your perseverance. Good luck.

 

[depecid]

Ok so I have an interesting update that doesn't solve anything, but raises more questions.

I had a beer at a leagues club (Aussie thing, lets just call it a pub) that I know well. It was from a local brewery.
I took a sip and sniff and couldn't believe it, it had the exact same profile that I'm banging on about.
My wife was also shocked and said "Yep, tastes exactly like your beer". I looked it up online for a recipe or flavour description and they talked about using 8 different hops to achieve the flavour in their XPA (Ridiculous, I can get that from one single hop currently /sarcasm).

I struggled through it, and ordered a different beer. A Philter XPA (Sydney based brewery, and a well known beer) off tap.
Almost exactly the same. Slightly different profile, but overwhelming caramel/toffee smell and taste.
I took it back and had a chat to the bar guy who didn't agree with me, and said they smell different to him. Fair enough. I swapped it for another local brewery that's right next door... another beer I know well.
Same thing again. It was slightly orange coloured when it should be straw, very hazy when it should be almost clear. I ended up pouring it into a glass bottle and going to the brewery over the road and asked them to pour a sample of the beer from their taps. The guy was fine about it, but really didn't offer much as he wasn't the brewer. He said it could be the end of the keg, etc etc. They looked and smelled completely different.

A few days later I went to the brewery of the first beer i tried, and chatted to the brewer. He was pretty upset about my description and said he'd go and try it. He offered up maybe it was Diacetyl or dirty lines, or maybe mishandled kegs (Sitting warm). I bought a four pack of the said beer, and tried one. It was light, crisp, mildly bitter, and hoppy. Exactly how it wasn't at the pub.

Now I'm starting to question is it some sort of oxidation that's happening prior to pitching, like someone suggested. Sitting in the cube with O2 ingress affecting the hops. Either that or we happen to have the same strain of bacteria/yeast ruining the beer.

Anwyay. I've got a NEIPA on now that was brewed, cubed, and pitched the following day. Also a Belgian Dubbel.
I have an XPA that it in my fridge in the cube (As a control, it will go on in a week or two). It was sanitized and cleaned as much as I could bare.

I'll keep you posted on the results.