"Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)

[Big Monk]

@RPIScotty Here's a recipe that I'm still working on. I have no practical experience brewing Belgian beers (the dubbel I brewed 5 years ago as my very first all-grain doesn't count) Am I on the right track? I'm not trying to clone anything, but want it pretty faithful to the style. I'm using 1388 yeast because I bought a pack of it to make mead. I'll make a big starter and split it between a gallon of mead and 4 gallons of beer. Any suggestions?

I would use sugar instead of corn starch.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A word of caution for anyone brewing this as written: make sure you are comfortable with manipulating the fermentation variables to make this a yeast driven beer.

Unlike the legions of Westvleteren influenced dark ale recipes that have come out over the years, this recipe has no ingredients in it that will act as proxies for yeast derived flavors. As a a matter of fact, drink your share of Chimay, Rochefort, and Westmalle (Achel as well) and study their recipes and you’ll find no Special B or Dark syrups. These are yeast driven beers that play with temperature, pitch rate, attenuation, and aeration in ways that most people find difficult to adjust to.

Though assuredly factual, I'm honestly not brave enough to venture down that road yet. I'm currently looking at this as my grist bill:

Pilsner malt (1.9L), 75%
Caramel/Crystal malt (80L), 5.56%
Victory/Biscuit malt (28L), 5.56%
D-180 Candi-Syrup (180 SRM = 133.4L), 5.56%
Corn Starch (Guessing 0L to 1L), 8.33%

Estimated finished beer color = ~20 SRM

 

[Big Monk]

Though assuredly factual, I'm honestly not brave enough to venture down that road yet. I'm currently looking at this as my grist bill:

Pilsner malt (1.9L), 75%
Caramel/Crystal malt (80L), 5.56%
Victory/Biscuit malt (28L), 5.56%
D-180 Candi-Syrup (180 SRM = 133.4L), 5.56%
Corn Starch (Guessing 0L to 1L), 8.33%

Estimated finished beer color = ~20 SRM

One thing to remember: This isn't a clone recipe, it's THE recipe. At least for Rochefort 6. Don't feel obligated to follow portions of it unless you are going to follow it exactly.

My point? Ditch the cornstarch. Also, you don't have enough sugar in your recipe.

You may want to modify a version of Hermann Holtrop's Rochefort 8 recipe for this:

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4181.html#4181-24

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ditch the cornstarch. Also, you don't have enough sugar in your recipe.

I'll replace the corn starch with white cane sugar (common table sugar). Will that give me sufficient sugar (in combination with the D-180) to hit ~83% attenuation? My presumption was that the corn starch would mainly go to sugar via enzymatic activity (via emzymes provided by the Pilsner malt). Would you know the percentage of sugar that can be derived from corn starch?

PS: I'm not disputing the factualness of the actual recipe. There is no disputing it, as it comes from a photograph of the actual recipe.

 

[Big Monk]

I'll replace the corn starch with white cane sugar (common table sugar). Will that give me sufficient sugar (in combination with the D-180) to hit ~83% attenuation?

That's a tough question. Greater than 10% sugars in any recipe is going to aid in higher attenuation but yeast health, wort quality, etc. will all play a part.

EDIT: You may want to brew a low gravity beer first with 1762 and then repitch the slurry into the main batch.

My presumption was that the corn starch would mainly go to sugar via enzymatic activity (via emzymes provided by the Pilsner malt). Would you know the percentage of sugar that can be derived from corn starch?

Well that's like saying a recipe with 80% malt and 20% sugar is 100% sugar because the malt goes mainly to sugar through enzymatic activity. Corn Starch, like malt I presume, give more complex sugars than those found in simple sugars.

 

[Vale71]

I'll replace the corn starch with white cane sugar (common table sugar). Will that give me sufficient sugar (in combination with the D-180) to hit ~83% attenuation? My presumption was that the corn starch would mainly go to sugar via enzymatic activity (via emzymes provided by the Pilsner malt). Would you know the percentage of sugar that can be derived from corn starch?

PS: I'm not disputing the factualness of the actual recipe. There is no disputing it, as it comes from a photograph of the actual recipe.

By "sugar" I assume you actually mean fermentable sugar, correct? Corn starch has a slightly different structure than barley starch and will give a somewhat more fermentable wort depending on actual percentage of grist but it won't yield 100% fermentable sugar by far. Syrup is 100% fermentable (calculated on dry matter, of course) and will have a much greater effect on fermentability.
Here is a study showing the effect of corn grist (89.5% starch so somewhat less pure than processed corn starch) on commercial beers with 0%,10% and 20% corn grist adjunct.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.115

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here is an article that compares the flavor components derived from straight extruded (uncooked) corn starch vs. cooked corn starch in beer brewing.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jib.474

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here is a 1944 study on the direct fermentation of various starches. An admittedly quick and precursory read indicates that 90% of starch by weight is converted directly to alcohol. And that all of the action of saccharification is due to Alpha-Amylase and none is as a result of the presence of Beta-Amylase. And that the process involved a starch and water paste which was initially heated to 165-166 degrees F.

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/33/jresv33n2p105_A1b.pdf

 

[Big Monk]

Here is an article that compares the flavor components derived from straight extruded (uncooked) corn starch vs. cooked corn starch in beer brewing.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jib.474

The real point is: If you arent going to brew the recipe as written, don't bother with corn starch. For someone looking to approximate Rochefort 6 with standard fermentation practices and ingredients, I would mess with something like the following:

Pilsner - 83%
Special B - 3%
Turbinado - 9%
D90 - 5%

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A 1967 study of the fermentation of corn starch. Interestingly enough, it states that a corn starch and water mixture is rather acidic, and the low pH must be addressed.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00021369.1968.10859147

 

[Vale71]

Here is a 1944 study on the direct fermentation of various starches. An admittedly quick and precursory read indicates that 90% of starch by weight is converted directly to alcohol. And that all of the action of saccharification is due to Alpha-Amylase and none is as a result of the presence of Beta-Amylase. And that the process involved a starch and water paste which was initially heated to 165-166 degrees F.

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/33/jresv33n2p105_A1b.pdf

This is a study (from 1944!) on the conversion of starch to fermentable sugars using synthetic enzymes for the purpose of alcohol production. I don't think it has any relevance to what we are discussing here.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

if an all malt grist yields 80% apparent attenuation for a given yeast, then converting it to a grist of 15% cane sugar and 85% malt (by weight) will yield an apparent attenuation of 83%.

[(100%_Attenuation * 15%_Grist) + (80%_Attenuation * 85%_Grist)] / 100%_Grist = 83%_Attenuation

Therefore (as a ballpark) roughly every 5% of the grists weight that is replaced with cane sugar (or dextrose sugar) will nominally increase the apparent attenuation by 1%.

 

[Big Monk]

if an all malt grist yields 80% apparent attenuation for a given yeast, then converting it to a grist of 15% cane sugar and 85% malt (by weight) will yield an apparent attenuation of 83%.

[(100%_Attenuation * 15%_Grist) + (80%_Attenuation * 85%_Grist)] / 100%_Grist = 83%_Attenuation

Therefore (as a ballpark) roughly every 5% of the grists weight that is replaced with cane sugar (or dextrose sugar) will nominally increase the apparent attenuation by 1%.

Can you really calculate that though?

It's known that if you displace malt with sugar you'll increase attenuation. Calculating it exactly might be a stretch.

I routinely get in the mid to upper 80s for attenuation using 3787. That's with ranges of 8-18% sugar. I'm not sure i could reliably place that much faith in the calculation you show above. My experience shows the effect of added sugar is greater.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Can you really calculate that though?

It's known that if you displace malt with sugar you'll increase attenuation. Calculating it exactly might be a stretch.

More of a ballpark, but at least it lends a means for general guidance.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The simple calculation I did above should at least provide a reasonable floor for the 'lowest' anticipated improvement in apparent attenuation. There may then be a multiplicative factor (likely between the extremes of 1X and 2X on first pure guess) which can lend improvement to the formula vs. real world observation of gained apparent attenuation via sugar addition.

 

[21jason21]

So, quick question about water profile. I use brew father and I put in my local tap water and used the profile that was posted for the 8. Does this look right? Should I add some baking soda to bring the PH up to 5.8-5.9?

Before

After

Acid sparge

I am just getting into water profiles and this really does not look right. I’m
Used to Brewfather auto calculating all the numbers to green and not leaving some red. Any ideas?

 

[Big Monk]

So, quick question about water profile. I use brew father and I put in my local tap water and used the profile that was posted for the 8. Does this look right? Should I add some baking soda to bring the PH up to 5.8-5.9?

Before
View attachment 632162

After
View attachment 632163

Acid sparge
View attachment 632164


I am just getting into water profiles and this really does not look right. I’m
Used to Brewfather auto calculating all the numbers to green and not leaving some red. Any ideas?

Don’t copy the Rochefort water regime or profile. Do what you like or usually do.

 

[21jason21]

Don’t copy the Rochefort water regime or profile. Do what you like or usually do.

So no acid sparge? I always set a finished water profile. Should I just pick a standard ale profile? I change this according to the style of beer I brew.

 

[Big Monk]

So no acid sparge? I always set a finished water profile. Should I just pick a standard ale profile? I change this according to the style of beer I brew.

Do as you normally would for mash and sparge additions (minerals and acids) and target a normal 5.4 pH.

A water profile shouldn’t make or break this beer as it’s a yeast showcase. I would target the Chloride and Sulfate levels quote with Calcium salts (CaCl and CaSO4) and call it a day.

 

[Bierkrug]

Okay, so I gave the 6 a rough shot. First try won't be perfect but I figured this beer will be one of my long term projects

Mash schedule was:
55°C for 10min
63°C for 30min
72°C for 30min
78°C for 10min

Hops are just Taurus for bittering at 90 min
My sugar was a mix of 33% 'raw' cane sugar and 66% Muscovado sugar, added at 15min left.

I pitched 2L starter of Wyeast 1762, no aeration, 20°C, let it rise to 23°C.
Not sure if I should keep it there or let it fall down again

Also took some wort and pitched yeast from a bottle of 6, just out of interest.

Admittedly, it's a bit crude, next time I'll get the right hops + Belgian brown sugar.
Can't really control fermentation temps too well, so hopefully those aren't totally off.

I'll report back when the fermentation is finished and the beer is bottled and carbed up.

 

[applescrap]

I cant stop wondering about this beer. I am inbetween this, the honey chamomile wheat, and westvleteren clone. With the corn starch this seems more intriguing to me plus I love historical recipes. Cant wait to hear how it turns out.

 

[Bierkrug]

Ok, so this first try is tasty, but definitely not cloned, maybe about 80% there.

OG was 16,5°P; FG is 2,8°P giving me 7,5%abv

People liked it, but to me it was obvious that it wasn't the real deal.

Yesterday I compared it with a real Rochefort 6. Foam and mouthfeel are very close, my foam is not quite as stable and my mouthfeel is not quite as soft.
My beer also has some of the rum/coke character of the original, just not quite as intense.

The biggest difference is in the ester department. While the R6 has strong, dark, red fruit, mine is much lighter and brighter.
Overall flavour intensity just isn't up to par either. It's a bit like mine lacks some intensity.

It's not bad for a first try, especially since I haven't used this yeast before, but this needs improvement.
Easiest thing will be sugar, I'll just get dark Belgian brewing sugar. I'll also start at 17,5°P next time.


Yeast flavours are my main problem. If anyone knows how to get more of the dark fruit flavours out of Wyeast 1762, please send help

I would just pitch at a lower rate + cooler pitching temp., but I'm a clueless fool.

 

[eimar]

Thank you for posting all those info. Rochefort is my favorite beer.

 

[eimar]

The Rochefort brewing sheet mentions "Cassonade" . It is brown sugar. Why was it translated as "Candi Syrup, Inc. Brun Fonce " in the Realfort 6/8/10 ?

 

[deadwolfbones]

The Rochefort brewing sheet mentions "Cassonade" . It is brown sugar. Why was it translated as "Candi Syrup, Inc. Brun Fonce " in the Realfort 6/8/10 ?

From the first page:

Cassonade translates, in the most literal sense, to Brown Sugar. Some of the soft sugars available, Brun Fonce from CSI, Inc. in particular, would probably be appropriate here. Like I said above, a mix of white and brown sugars would probably be desirable for the 8 and 10. Turbinado should work excellent here, along with Raw Cane Sugar. Florida Crystals is a company I have used with great results and their Turbinado, Raw Cane Sugar and Raw Cane Invert Syrup is available in the grocery store. I'll update the recipes from my sheet later this week (along with the sheet itself) as I make a few changes.

 

[eimar]

Sorry for the confusion. I knew Candi syrup inc. is making candi syrup but I didn't know they produce cassonade too.

 

[eimar]

About starch? ( I never used it ) Is using wheat starch in a recipe equivalent to using flaked wheat ?

 

[z-bob]

About starch? ( I never used it ) Is using wheat starch in a recipe equivalent to using flaked wheat ?

No, flaked contains protein, and wheat starch (or corn starch) does not. Starch is closer to adding sugar -- but not quite the same as that either. Closest thing that's common might be flaked rice?