"Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)

[21jason21]

If the starch contains any amylopectin, then it will not convert to 100% fermentable sugar, as the branches in the amylopectin will result in dextrins in the resulting extract.

Assuming the starch is 100% starch (no proteins, moisture, etc.) 1 lb of starch will create about 1.055 lb of sugar + dextrins. This is due to the water that combines with the starch during hydrolysis. So, the potential for pure starch will be about 46 pts/lb * 1.055 = 48.5 pts/lb, or written as SG 1.0485.

So the big question is: how pure is the starch.

Edit: Quick Google search turned up the following:

"wheat starch contains ~98% carbohydrates (starch), 0.8–1.0% lipids, 0.2–0.5% proteins and 0.2–0.3% ash (moisture-free basis). ... Wheat starch is produced by physical separation from nonstarch constituents.
Wheat starch production, structure, functionality ... - Wiley Online Library"​

This would change the dry basis potential calculation to:

46 pts/lb * 1.055 * 0.98 = 47.6 pts/lb, or 1.0476​

Brew on

I currently have the cornstarch at 1.038, I will change it to 1.048.

 

[21jason21]

I have made that adjustment. Anyone else have any other changes?

 

[21jason21]

View attachment 625016

I have made that adjustment. Anyone else have any other changes?

PH is at 5.79 during the Mash. I have not done any water conditioning either. For this beer what would be optimal?

 

[Big Monk]

PH is at 5.79 during the Mash. I have not done any water conditioning either. For this beer what would be optimal?

Whatever you usually target.

 

[21jason21]

Whatever you usually target.

It’s usually considerably lower in the 5.4 range. BLAM says 5.2 into the kettle.

 

[Big Monk]

It’s usually considerably lower in the 5.4 range. BLAM says 5.2 into the kettle.

Don’t use those values. Target whatever you normally do.

 

[z-bob]

If the starch contains any amylopectin, then it will not convert to 100% fermentable sugar, as the branches in the amylopectin will result in dextrins in the resulting extract.

Assuming the starch is 100% starch (no proteins, moisture, etc.) 1 lb of starch will create about 1.055 lb of sugar + dextrins. This is due to the water that combines with the starch during hydrolysis. So, the potential for pure starch will be about 46 pts/lb * 1.055 = 48.5 pts/lb, or written as SG 1.0485.

So the big question is: how pure is the starch.

Edit: Quick Google search turned up the following:

"wheat starch contains ~98% carbohydrates (starch), 0.8–1.0% lipids, 0.2–0.5% proteins and 0.2–0.3% ash (moisture-free basis). ... Wheat starch is produced by physical separation from nonstarch constituents.
Wheat starch production, structure, functionality ... - Wiley Online Library"​

This would change the dry basis potential calculation to:

46 pts/lb * 1.055 * 0.98 = 47.6 pts/lb, or 1.0476​

Brew on

Typical corn starch and wheat starch are 20% amylose and 80% amylopectin. (I looked it up, to see if corn starch and wheat starch would really be interchangeable) There are corn starches with different ratios; not sure if it'd from different varieties of corn, or if it's treated somehow.

Corn starch at the grocery store is more expensive than sugar, but after reading this thread wondered if it might be better than sugar for brewing Belgian beers because of the dextrins. When the weather gets a little warmer I wanna try brewing a Belgian blond, and think I'll give it a shot. About 85% pilsner malt, 10% starch, 3.5% American aromatic malt (20L), and 2.5% acidulated malt. I just guestimated 43 pts/lb for the starch, if it's higher than that, hey more alcohol

 

[21jason21]

Sugars are added near knockout.

I am getting ready to brew this....

Would you combine the Turbinado and the corn starch at or near flameout. I dont think that the corn starch would need to be in the mash or boil.

 

[z-bob]

Cornstarch needs to be mashed. I don't know if it needs to be cooked first; when I get around to brewing with it I'm going to cook it.

 

[21jason21]

Cornstarch needs to be mashed. I don't know if it needs to be cooked first; when I get around to brewing with it I'm going to cook it.

Yes, I had that down as to be added into the mash. I have slept since then apparently. With a 1.078 OG would that warrant a larger amount of yeast? Say two packages of 1762? There is a ton of fermentables in there. I am going to bottle and cellar this for 6 months, should I pitch the second pack of yeast shortly before bottling?

 

[IslandLizard]

With a 1.078 OG would that warrant a larger amount of yeast? Say two packages of 1762?

Yes, it needs a ton of yeast, you definitely need to make a good size starter. Even 4 packs pitched as is won't likely cut it, unless they're super fresh, less than a month old, and weren't mishandled, such as shipped in hot weather, etc.

Check how many cells you need:
Homebrew Dad's Yeast Calculator

Now for Belgians you may want to underpitch a little, say 20-30% less. Not sure with this high gravity, though.
You also need to oxygenate/aerate your wort well, right after pitching.

[Update with estimated numbers]:
For 5 gallons of 1.078 wort the recommended pitch would be 268 billion cells.
One pack of WY1762 that's 3 months old has ~50% viability. A 1.5 liter starter on a stir plate will ramp that up to 260 billion of active cells. That should do it.

Make the starter a week before brewing, so you can cold crash it for a few days before brewing. On brew day, decant, add a liter or so of 1.040-1.050 of your boiled wort, and spin for 4 hours. Pitch the whole thing into your wort and oxygenate/aerate.

 

[Big Monk]

Cornstarch needs to be mashed. I don't know if it needs to be cooked first; when I get around to brewing with it I'm going to cook it.

AFAIK, It does not need to be cooked.

 

[Big Monk]

I am getting ready to brew this....

Would you combine the Turbinado and the corn starch at or near flameout. I dont think that the corn starch would need to be in the mash or boil.

It has to be mashed. It is starch, not sugar.

 

[Big Monk]

Yes, I had that down as to be added into the mash. I have slept since then apparently. With a 1.078 OG would that warrant a larger amount of yeast? Say two packages of 1762? There is a ton of fermentables in there. I am going to bottle and cellar this for 6 months, should I pitch the second pack of yeast shortly before bottling?

It's entirely up to you how you want to ferment, age and serve, but take a look at my post here:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=33089.0

I have some ideas in the "On Fermentation" section.

I'm not a fan of aging these beers, but rather providing the right conditions so that it's drinkable and enjoyable earlier. Consider that unless it's been sitting on the shelves for years in a bottle shop that the Rochefort 8 you drink is at most 2-3 months old and that Brother Antoine feels the 8 is ready to drink after 8 weeks in the bottle.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Corn starch is completely insoluble in cold water, and only becomes fully wetted (gelatinized?) at 70 degrees C. (158 degrees F.) and higher per this document (see link below). So I would think that it needs to be added to mash water that is heated to 160 degrees F. and then after stirring to fully wet the corn starch add the remaining malt(s)/grist to cool the mash to 148-150 degrees.

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&context=foodsciefacpub

 

[z-bob]

Corn starch is completely insoluble in cold water, and only becomes fully wetted (gelatinized?) at 70 degrees C. (158 degrees F.) and higher per this document (see link below). So I would think that it needs to be added to mash water that is heated to 160 degrees F. and then after stirring to fully wet the corn starch add the remaining malt(s)/grist to cool the mash to 148-150 degrees.

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&context=foodsciefacpub

That would probably work and be the easiest way to do it, but you're cutting it close. I intend to boil mine briefly. I've done that with wheat flour and it works well as long as you throw in a handful of pale malt while it's at saccharification (sp?) temp

 

[imasickboy]

Corn starch is completely insoluble in cold water, and only becomes fully wetted (gelatinized?) at 70 degrees C. (158 degrees F.) and higher per this document (see link below). So I would think that it needs to be added to mash water that is heated to 160 degrees F. and then after stirring to fully wet the corn starch add the remaining malt(s)/grist to cool the mash to 148-150 degrees.

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&context=foodsciefacpub

Corn starch clumps when added directly to hot water. Add to cold water, mix well, and then heat it up.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Corn starch clumps when added directly to hot water. Add to cold water, mix well, and then heat it up.

Good point! Anyone who has thickened gravy will tell you this advice is spot on (as I should have remembered). Mix the corn starch into cold water, heat to strike temperature (which should fully gelatinize it without clumping), and then dough in the other mashable goodies to cool the grist to mash temperature.

 

[Big Monk]

A word of caution for anyone brewing this as written: make sure you are comfortable with manipulating the fermentation variables to make this a yeast driven beer.

Unlike the legions of Westvleteren influenced dark ale recipes that have come out over the years, this recipe has no ingredients in it that will act as proxies for yeast derived flavors. As a a matter of fact, drink your share of Chimay, Rochefort, and Westmalle (Achel as well) and study their recipes and you’ll find no Special B or Dark syrups. These are yeast driven beers that play with temperature, pitch rate, attenuation, and aeration in ways that most people find difficult to adjust to.

If you are looking to be less adventurous with the fermentation regimen, PM me and I can work with you on ingredient swaps, etc.

 

[z-bob]

@RPIScotty Here's a recipe that I'm still working on. I have no practical experience brewing Belgian beers (the dubbel I brewed 5 years ago as my very first all-grain doesn't count) Am I on the right track? I'm not trying to clone anything, but want it pretty faithful to the style. I'm using 1388 yeast because I bought a pack of it to make mead. I'll make a big starter and split it between a gallon of mead and 4 gallons of beer. Any suggestions?

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Belgian Blond Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 4 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.055
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

Original Gravity: 1.069
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 7.12%
IBU (tinseth): 26.86
SRM (morey): 4.77
Mash pH: 5.4

FERMENTABLES:
8.375 lb - Belgian Pilsner (83.8%)
6 oz - Aromatic Malt 20 L (3.8%)
4 oz - Acidulated Malt (2.5%)
1 lb - Cornstarch (10%)

HOPS:
15 g - Palisade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 17.95
25 g - Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 8.91

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 4 gal
2) Sparge, Temp: 120 F, Time: 10 min, Amount: 8 qt

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
4 ml - Phosphoric acid, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Wyeast - Belgian Strong Ale 1388
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 76%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temp: 64 - 80 F
Fermentation Temp: 70 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)
Generated by Brewer's Friend - https://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2019-06-06 01:44 UTC

 

[Big Monk]

@RPIScotty Here's a recipe that I'm still working on. I have no practical experience brewing Belgian beers (the dubbel I brewed 5 years ago as my very first all-grain doesn't count) Am I on the right track? I'm not trying to clone anything, but want it pretty faithful to the style. I'm using 1388 yeast because I bought a pack of it to make mead. I'll make a big starter and split it between a gallon of mead and 4 gallons of beer. Any suggestions?

I would use sugar instead of corn starch.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A word of caution for anyone brewing this as written: make sure you are comfortable with manipulating the fermentation variables to make this a yeast driven beer.

Unlike the legions of Westvleteren influenced dark ale recipes that have come out over the years, this recipe has no ingredients in it that will act as proxies for yeast derived flavors. As a a matter of fact, drink your share of Chimay, Rochefort, and Westmalle (Achel as well) and study their recipes and you’ll find no Special B or Dark syrups. These are yeast driven beers that play with temperature, pitch rate, attenuation, and aeration in ways that most people find difficult to adjust to.

Though assuredly factual, I'm honestly not brave enough to venture down that road yet. I'm currently looking at this as my grist bill:

Pilsner malt (1.9L), 75%
Caramel/Crystal malt (80L), 5.56%
Victory/Biscuit malt (28L), 5.56%
D-180 Candi-Syrup (180 SRM = 133.4L), 5.56%
Corn Starch (Guessing 0L to 1L), 8.33%

Estimated finished beer color = ~20 SRM

 

[Big Monk]

Though assuredly factual, I'm honestly not brave enough to venture down that road yet. I'm currently looking at this as my grist bill:

Pilsner malt (1.9L), 75%
Caramel/Crystal malt (80L), 5.56%
Victory/Biscuit malt (28L), 5.56%
D-180 Candi-Syrup (180 SRM = 133.4L), 5.56%
Corn Starch (Guessing 0L to 1L), 8.33%

Estimated finished beer color = ~20 SRM

One thing to remember: This isn't a clone recipe, it's THE recipe. At least for Rochefort 6. Don't feel obligated to follow portions of it unless you are going to follow it exactly.

My point? Ditch the cornstarch. Also, you don't have enough sugar in your recipe.

You may want to modify a version of Hermann Holtrop's Rochefort 8 recipe for this:

http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4181.html#4181-24

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ditch the cornstarch. Also, you don't have enough sugar in your recipe.

I'll replace the corn starch with white cane sugar (common table sugar). Will that give me sufficient sugar (in combination with the D-180) to hit ~83% attenuation? My presumption was that the corn starch would mainly go to sugar via enzymatic activity (via emzymes provided by the Pilsner malt). Would you know the percentage of sugar that can be derived from corn starch?

PS: I'm not disputing the factualness of the actual recipe. There is no disputing it, as it comes from a photograph of the actual recipe.

 

[Big Monk]

I'll replace the corn starch with white cane sugar (common table sugar). Will that give me sufficient sugar (in combination with the D-180) to hit ~83% attenuation?

That's a tough question. Greater than 10% sugars in any recipe is going to aid in higher attenuation but yeast health, wort quality, etc. will all play a part.

EDIT: You may want to brew a low gravity beer first with 1762 and then repitch the slurry into the main batch.

My presumption was that the corn starch would mainly go to sugar via enzymatic activity (via emzymes provided by the Pilsner malt). Would you know the percentage of sugar that can be derived from corn starch?

Well that's like saying a recipe with 80% malt and 20% sugar is 100% sugar because the malt goes mainly to sugar through enzymatic activity. Corn Starch, like malt I presume, give more complex sugars than those found in simple sugars.

 

[Vale71]

I'll replace the corn starch with white cane sugar (common table sugar). Will that give me sufficient sugar (in combination with the D-180) to hit ~83% attenuation? My presumption was that the corn starch would mainly go to sugar via enzymatic activity (via emzymes provided by the Pilsner malt). Would you know the percentage of sugar that can be derived from corn starch?

PS: I'm not disputing the factualness of the actual recipe. There is no disputing it, as it comes from a photograph of the actual recipe.

By "sugar" I assume you actually mean fermentable sugar, correct? Corn starch has a slightly different structure than barley starch and will give a somewhat more fermentable wort depending on actual percentage of grist but it won't yield 100% fermentable sugar by far. Syrup is 100% fermentable (calculated on dry matter, of course) and will have a much greater effect on fermentability.
Here is a study showing the effect of corn grist (89.5% starch so somewhat less pure than processed corn starch) on commercial beers with 0%,10% and 20% corn grist adjunct.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jib.115

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here is an article that compares the flavor components derived from straight extruded (uncooked) corn starch vs. cooked corn starch in beer brewing.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jib.474

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here is a 1944 study on the direct fermentation of various starches. An admittedly quick and precursory read indicates that 90% of starch by weight is converted directly to alcohol. And that all of the action of saccharification is due to Alpha-Amylase and none is as a result of the presence of Beta-Amylase. And that the process involved a starch and water paste which was initially heated to 165-166 degrees F.

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/33/jresv33n2p105_A1b.pdf

 

[Big Monk]

Here is an article that compares the flavor components derived from straight extruded (uncooked) corn starch vs. cooked corn starch in beer brewing.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jib.474

The real point is: If you arent going to brew the recipe as written, don't bother with corn starch. For someone looking to approximate Rochefort 6 with standard fermentation practices and ingredients, I would mess with something like the following:

Pilsner - 83%
Special B - 3%
Turbinado - 9%
D90 - 5%

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A 1967 study of the fermentation of corn starch. Interestingly enough, it states that a corn starch and water mixture is rather acidic, and the low pH must be addressed.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00021369.1968.10859147