"Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)

[Big Monk]

I did some calculations for the Roch 10 recipe, and for a mash efficiency of 90%, the percent of extract from the mash would be: 78.85$, and from added sugar 21.15% of total dissolved solids in the wort. If mash efficiency were only 75%, and the recipe unaltered, the percent of extract from the mash would be 75.65%, and added sugar 24.35%. The ratio in the first case is 3.73 extract/sugar, and the second case 3.11. Is that enough to worry about? IDK. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Brew on

I’d have to crunch some numbers to verify what you are saying here.

I think in reality, however, there wouldn’t be a scenario where that drastic of a drop in conversion Efficiency wasn’t corrected with better process or more grain. So the scenario in which you drop conversion without increasing available grain extract is unlikely.

At least to me. I don’t know if that would be obvious to everyone.

I’ll take a look at my original calcs this week and post some observations here.

 

[doug293cz]

I’d have to crunch some numbers to verify what you are saying here.

I think in reality, however, there wouldn’t be a scenario where that drastic of a drop in conversion Efficiency wasn’t corrected with better process or more grain. So the scenario in which you drop conversion without increasing available grain extract is unlikely.

At least to me. I don’t know if that would be obvious to everyone.

I’ll take a look at my original calcs this week and post some observations here.

Mash efficiency (what I used) is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. Home brewers are often low on either or both of conversion and lauter. I would expect a commercial brewery to be in the 90's for mash efficiency. The question here is how should a home brewer, who's mash efficiency is much lower than Rochefort's, adjust their grain bill to compensate, so as to have a wort composition as close as possible to Rochefort's. I can show you my math if you are interested.

Brew on

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My efficiency spreadsheet also presumes mash efficiency to be the product of conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. This value (mash efficiency computed as conversion x lauter) turns out to be identical to one calculated via dividing actual extraction points achieved per pound by the theoretical maximum overall grist average of extraction points.

 

[Big Monk]

Mash efficiency (what I used) is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. Home brewers are often low on either or both of conversion and lauter. I would expect a commercial brewery to be in the 90's for mash efficiency. The question here is how should a home brewer, who's mash efficiency is much lower than Rochefort's, adjust their grain bill to compensate, so as to have a wort composition as close as possible to Rochefort's. I can show you my math if you are interested.

Brew on

The way I think of it is like this (and the Extract calcs, Kai’s calcs to be exact, that are used in The Brewing Engine adhere):

1.) Regardless of who you are and where you are brewing, we all have the same theoretical maximum extract value if we were to standardize for a certain malt and it’s As-is extract potential;

2.) The first place where deviation may occur is going to be in conversion efficiency terms. Full disclosure: I assumed 100% conversion efficiency in my Rochefort analysis and recipe write ups. That may be worth noting in the future. My first partial answer to your question is that should someone expect less 100% conversion, they should increase grain weight, not sugar weight. I didn’t spell this out but it would seem like common sense to me and many others. With that said, I may have to note that for future reference;

3.) The next place where deviation may occur is in lauter efficiency, which is obviously going to be much higher in a larger production brewery. Again, I would hope people would be adept enough to raise the grain weight here.

I think you raise a good point. When dealing with a percentage based recipe, it’s important to not your assumptions and to make clear to folks how to differ from the written recipe when thier specs won’t match those assumptions.

Short story long: make sure you maintain a ratio of grain to sugar extract commensurate with full conversion and relatively high lauter efficiency.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

the starter behaves much differently

Differently to what?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just came across a great listing with detailed descriptions for Belgian style yeasts from nigh on every yeast cultivating house available. If the web link seen below does not take you directly to the top of the Belgian yeasts listing, but rather takes you to the actual top of the web page, simply click on "3 Commercial Farmhouse/Belgian Strains", or just go down the page about 25% of the way:

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Sac..._Farmhouse.2FBelgian_Strains_of_Saccharomyces

 

[applescrap]

I did some calculations for the Roch 10 recipe, and for a mash efficiency of 90%, the percent of extract from the mash would be: 78.85$, and from added sugar 21.15% of total dissolved solids in the wort. If mash efficiency were only 75%, and the recipe unaltered, the percent of extract from the mash would be 75.65%, and added sugar 24.35%. The ratio in the first case is 3.73 extract/sugar, and the second case 3.11. Is that enough to worry about? IDK. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Brew on

They are good brewers no doubt and they are definitely going to be closer to 90 percent, I would guess. That said I don't think a huge difference will be perceived in a slight base malt variance with the Belgian yeast especially. But yeah the recipe should be made assuming their percent number is 90 percent efficiency and mine 75. Thanks for all the help, cant wait to make it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Have you made any batches yet by which to judge them against the real thing?

 

[bmaupin]

Differently to what?

Both wy1762 and wlp540. the starters for the commercial strains barely have a krausen and the starter beer tastes dull by comparison.

the picture is a starter with the dregs.

 

[21jason21]

Does anyone know the breakdown of cornstarch or wheatstarch? I would assume very low to 0 SRM change when it is added. I have read that it is 100% fermentable and does not leave a taste of any kind. My question is more OG related. How do I input either one into BeerSmith or Brewfather for building the recipe?

Great work Scotty on this beer!!

 

[Big Monk]

Does anyone know the breakdown of cornstarch or wheatstarch? I would assume very low to 0 SRM change when it is added. I have read that it is 100% fermentable and does not leave a taste of any kind. My question is more OG related. How do I input either one into BeerSmith or Brewfather for building the recipe?

Great work Scotty on this beer!!

It won;t add any color or have any pH implications.

As far as 100% fermentable, I wouldn't be so sure. It definitely gains back some extract value from being pure starch as compared to malt but i would imagine there is still a loss of extract to moisture.

I would start by using the Fine Grind Dry Basis extract value unaltered as the extract potential for the starch and see how it works out.

 

[Vale71]

I have read that it is 100% fermentable and does not leave a taste of any kind.

I'm not sure about corn starch but wheat starch will definitely give an extract that has the same fermentability as it would have had if you had extracted it from raw wheat, so less than 100%. After all it is the same starch contained in a wheat kernel just refined but AFAIK it is not subjected to any enzymatic treatment whatsoever.

 

[21jason21]

It won;t add any color or have any pH implications.

As far as 100% fermentable, I wouldn't be so sure. It definitely gains back some extract value from being pure starch as compared to malt but i would imagine there is still a loss of extract to moisture.

I would start by using the Fine Grind Dry Basis extract value unaltered as the extract potential for the starch and see how it works out.

I'm not sure about corn starch but wheat starch will definitely give an extract that has the same fermentability as it would have had if you had extracted it from raw wheat, so less than 100%. After all it is the same starch contained in a wheat kernel just refined but AFAIK it is not subjected to any enzymatic treatment whatsoever.

Thanks guys!! looks like its around 1.044-1.045. I will be brewing the Rochefort 8 soon. I will post the results.

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks guys!! looks like its around 1.044-1.045. I will be brewing the Rochefort 8 soon. I will post the results.

I wouldn't recommend you run it that high to start out. That's a hard sugar type value.

I would start at 1.038-1.039 and see how that works.

 

[21jason21]

Sugars are added at flameout and starch is mixed in with the grains for the mash correct?

 

[Big Monk]

Sugars are added at flameout and starch is mixed in with the grains for the mash correct?

Technically sugars at flamout (ish) but you can add them whenever you want. Just tweak the recipe to maintain the right gravity.

Starch has to be mashed, yes.

 

[21jason21]

How does this look??

 

[doug293cz]

Does anyone know the breakdown of cornstarch or wheatstarch? I would assume very low to 0 SRM change when it is added. I have read that it is 100% fermentable and does not leave a taste of any kind. My question is more OG related. How do I input either one into BeerSmith or Brewfather for building the recipe?

Great work Scotty on this beer!!

If the starch contains any amylopectin, then it will not convert to 100% fermentable sugar, as the branches in the amylopectin will result in dextrins in the resulting extract.

Assuming the starch is 100% starch (no proteins, moisture, etc.) 1 lb of starch will create about 1.055 lb of sugar + dextrins. This is due to the water that combines with the starch during hydrolysis. So, the potential for pure starch will be about 46 pts/lb * 1.055 = 48.5 pts/lb, or written as SG 1.0485.

So the big question is: how pure is the starch.

Edit: Quick Google search turned up the following:

"wheat starch contains ~98% carbohydrates (starch), 0.8–1.0% lipids, 0.2–0.5% proteins and 0.2–0.3% ash (moisture-free basis). ... Wheat starch is produced by physical separation from nonstarch constituents.
Wheat starch production, structure, functionality ... - Wiley Online Library"​

This would change the dry basis potential calculation to:

46 pts/lb * 1.055 * 0.98 = 47.6 pts/lb, or 1.0476​

Brew on

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If pure starch yields 46 pts/Lb., why not just use a sugar instead?

 

[doug293cz]

If pure starch yields 46 pts/Lb., why not just use a sugar instead?

Because it will also yield some dextrins, which you will not get from pure sugar. And the ~2% "other" content of the starch.

Brew on

 

[21jason21]

If the starch contains any amylopectin, then it will not convert to 100% fermentable sugar, as the branches in the amylopectin will result in dextrins in the resulting extract.

Assuming the starch is 100% starch (no proteins, moisture, etc.) 1 lb of starch will create about 1.055 lb of sugar + dextrins. This is due to the water that combines with the starch during hydrolysis. So, the potential for pure starch will be about 46 pts/lb * 1.055 = 48.5 pts/lb, or written as SG 1.0485.

So the big question is: how pure is the starch.

Edit: Quick Google search turned up the following:

"wheat starch contains ~98% carbohydrates (starch), 0.8–1.0% lipids, 0.2–0.5% proteins and 0.2–0.3% ash (moisture-free basis). ... Wheat starch is produced by physical separation from nonstarch constituents.
Wheat starch production, structure, functionality ... - Wiley Online Library"​

This would change the dry basis potential calculation to:

46 pts/lb * 1.055 * 0.98 = 47.6 pts/lb, or 1.0476​

Brew on

I currently have the cornstarch at 1.038, I will change it to 1.048.

 

[21jason21]

I have made that adjustment. Anyone else have any other changes?

 

[21jason21]

View attachment 625016

I have made that adjustment. Anyone else have any other changes?

PH is at 5.79 during the Mash. I have not done any water conditioning either. For this beer what would be optimal?

 

[Big Monk]

PH is at 5.79 during the Mash. I have not done any water conditioning either. For this beer what would be optimal?

Whatever you usually target.

 

[21jason21]

Whatever you usually target.

It’s usually considerably lower in the 5.4 range. BLAM says 5.2 into the kettle.

 

[Big Monk]

It’s usually considerably lower in the 5.4 range. BLAM says 5.2 into the kettle.

Don’t use those values. Target whatever you normally do.

 

[z-bob]

If the starch contains any amylopectin, then it will not convert to 100% fermentable sugar, as the branches in the amylopectin will result in dextrins in the resulting extract.

Assuming the starch is 100% starch (no proteins, moisture, etc.) 1 lb of starch will create about 1.055 lb of sugar + dextrins. This is due to the water that combines with the starch during hydrolysis. So, the potential for pure starch will be about 46 pts/lb * 1.055 = 48.5 pts/lb, or written as SG 1.0485.

So the big question is: how pure is the starch.

Edit: Quick Google search turned up the following:

"wheat starch contains ~98% carbohydrates (starch), 0.8–1.0% lipids, 0.2–0.5% proteins and 0.2–0.3% ash (moisture-free basis). ... Wheat starch is produced by physical separation from nonstarch constituents.
Wheat starch production, structure, functionality ... - Wiley Online Library"​

This would change the dry basis potential calculation to:

46 pts/lb * 1.055 * 0.98 = 47.6 pts/lb, or 1.0476​

Brew on

Typical corn starch and wheat starch are 20% amylose and 80% amylopectin. (I looked it up, to see if corn starch and wheat starch would really be interchangeable) There are corn starches with different ratios; not sure if it'd from different varieties of corn, or if it's treated somehow.

Corn starch at the grocery store is more expensive than sugar, but after reading this thread wondered if it might be better than sugar for brewing Belgian beers because of the dextrins. When the weather gets a little warmer I wanna try brewing a Belgian blond, and think I'll give it a shot. About 85% pilsner malt, 10% starch, 3.5% American aromatic malt (20L), and 2.5% acidulated malt. I just guestimated 43 pts/lb for the starch, if it's higher than that, hey more alcohol

 

[21jason21]

Sugars are added near knockout.

I am getting ready to brew this....

Would you combine the Turbinado and the corn starch at or near flameout. I dont think that the corn starch would need to be in the mash or boil.

 

[z-bob]

Cornstarch needs to be mashed. I don't know if it needs to be cooked first; when I get around to brewing with it I'm going to cook it.

 

[21jason21]

Cornstarch needs to be mashed. I don't know if it needs to be cooked first; when I get around to brewing with it I'm going to cook it.

Yes, I had that down as to be added into the mash. I have slept since then apparently. With a 1.078 OG would that warrant a larger amount of yeast? Say two packages of 1762? There is a ton of fermentables in there. I am going to bottle and cellar this for 6 months, should I pitch the second pack of yeast shortly before bottling?

 

[IslandLizard]

With a 1.078 OG would that warrant a larger amount of yeast? Say two packages of 1762?

Yes, it needs a ton of yeast, you definitely need to make a good size starter. Even 4 packs pitched as is won't likely cut it, unless they're super fresh, less than a month old, and weren't mishandled, such as shipped in hot weather, etc.

Check how many cells you need:
Homebrew Dad's Yeast Calculator

Now for Belgians you may want to underpitch a little, say 20-30% less. Not sure with this high gravity, though.
You also need to oxygenate/aerate your wort well, right after pitching.

[Update with estimated numbers]:
For 5 gallons of 1.078 wort the recommended pitch would be 268 billion cells.
One pack of WY1762 that's 3 months old has ~50% viability. A 1.5 liter starter on a stir plate will ramp that up to 260 billion of active cells. That should do it.

Make the starter a week before brewing, so you can cold crash it for a few days before brewing. On brew day, decant, add a liter or so of 1.040-1.050 of your boiled wort, and spin for 4 hours. Pitch the whole thing into your wort and oxygenate/aerate.

 

[Big Monk]

Cornstarch needs to be mashed. I don't know if it needs to be cooked first; when I get around to brewing with it I'm going to cook it.

AFAIK, It does not need to be cooked.

 

[Big Monk]

I am getting ready to brew this....

Would you combine the Turbinado and the corn starch at or near flameout. I dont think that the corn starch would need to be in the mash or boil.

It has to be mashed. It is starch, not sugar.

 

[Big Monk]

Yes, I had that down as to be added into the mash. I have slept since then apparently. With a 1.078 OG would that warrant a larger amount of yeast? Say two packages of 1762? There is a ton of fermentables in there. I am going to bottle and cellar this for 6 months, should I pitch the second pack of yeast shortly before bottling?

It's entirely up to you how you want to ferment, age and serve, but take a look at my post here:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=33089.0

I have some ideas in the "On Fermentation" section.

I'm not a fan of aging these beers, but rather providing the right conditions so that it's drinkable and enjoyable earlier. Consider that unless it's been sitting on the shelves for years in a bottle shop that the Rochefort 8 you drink is at most 2-3 months old and that Brother Antoine feels the 8 is ready to drink after 8 weeks in the bottle.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Corn starch is completely insoluble in cold water, and only becomes fully wetted (gelatinized?) at 70 degrees C. (158 degrees F.) and higher per this document (see link below). So I would think that it needs to be added to mash water that is heated to 160 degrees F. and then after stirring to fully wet the corn starch add the remaining malt(s)/grist to cool the mash to 148-150 degrees.

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&context=foodsciefacpub

 

[z-bob]

Corn starch is completely insoluble in cold water, and only becomes fully wetted (gelatinized?) at 70 degrees C. (158 degrees F.) and higher per this document (see link below). So I would think that it needs to be added to mash water that is heated to 160 degrees F. and then after stirring to fully wet the corn starch add the remaining malt(s)/grist to cool the mash to 148-150 degrees.

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&context=foodsciefacpub

That would probably work and be the easiest way to do it, but you're cutting it close. I intend to boil mine briefly. I've done that with wheat flour and it works well as long as you throw in a handful of pale malt while it's at saccharification (sp?) temp

 

[imasickboy]

Corn starch is completely insoluble in cold water, and only becomes fully wetted (gelatinized?) at 70 degrees C. (158 degrees F.) and higher per this document (see link below). So I would think that it needs to be added to mash water that is heated to 160 degrees F. and then after stirring to fully wet the corn starch add the remaining malt(s)/grist to cool the mash to 148-150 degrees.

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&context=foodsciefacpub

Corn starch clumps when added directly to hot water. Add to cold water, mix well, and then heat it up.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Corn starch clumps when added directly to hot water. Add to cold water, mix well, and then heat it up.

Good point! Anyone who has thickened gravy will tell you this advice is spot on (as I should have remembered). Mix the corn starch into cold water, heat to strike temperature (which should fully gelatinize it without clumping), and then dough in the other mashable goodies to cool the grist to mash temperature.

 

[Big Monk]

A word of caution for anyone brewing this as written: make sure you are comfortable with manipulating the fermentation variables to make this a yeast driven beer.

Unlike the legions of Westvleteren influenced dark ale recipes that have come out over the years, this recipe has no ingredients in it that will act as proxies for yeast derived flavors. As a a matter of fact, drink your share of Chimay, Rochefort, and Westmalle (Achel as well) and study their recipes and you’ll find no Special B or Dark syrups. These are yeast driven beers that play with temperature, pitch rate, attenuation, and aeration in ways that most people find difficult to adjust to.

If you are looking to be less adventurous with the fermentation regimen, PM me and I can work with you on ingredient swaps, etc.

 

[z-bob]

@RPIScotty Here's a recipe that I'm still working on. I have no practical experience brewing Belgian beers (the dubbel I brewed 5 years ago as my very first all-grain doesn't count) Am I on the right track? I'm not trying to clone anything, but want it pretty faithful to the style. I'm using 1388 yeast because I bought a pack of it to make mead. I'll make a big starter and split it between a gallon of mead and 4 gallons of beer. Any suggestions?

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Belgian Blond Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 4 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.055
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

Original Gravity: 1.069
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 7.12%
IBU (tinseth): 26.86
SRM (morey): 4.77
Mash pH: 5.4

FERMENTABLES:
8.375 lb - Belgian Pilsner (83.8%)
6 oz - Aromatic Malt 20 L (3.8%)
4 oz - Acidulated Malt (2.5%)
1 lb - Cornstarch (10%)

HOPS:
15 g - Palisade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 17.95
25 g - Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 8.91

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 4 gal
2) Sparge, Temp: 120 F, Time: 10 min, Amount: 8 qt

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
4 ml - Phosphoric acid, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Wyeast - Belgian Strong Ale 1388
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 76%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temp: 64 - 80 F
Fermentation Temp: 70 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)
Generated by Brewer's Friend - https://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2019-06-06 01:44 UTC