Quick qestion about oats

[Satanic_Four]

I've looked and looked. Can't find exactly what i want to know.
Oats...... Can't I just cook them then strain out the liquid and add the extraction to my mash?
Seems like it would cut down considerably on the crud in my grain bed. But if I can how come no one seems to mention anything about it.

 

[Yooper]

In short, no. You need to convert the starch in the oats to fermentable sugars otherwise you'd have a starchy mess. Th oats must be precooked or flaked to pregelatinize before using and then they must be mashed with basemalt.


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[Satanic_Four]

Ok I think maybe I'm confused. My goal is to extract all the starches from the oats then add that to my mash where they will b converted with out all the mushy oat leftovers.
I don't need base malt to extract the starches just convert them right?

 

[Satanic_Four]

I was contemplating new and unusual recipes over a pint the other day when this question came to mind. At first i was like duh that's a no brainer I'll just cook up a bunch of quick cook oatmeal with a cpl gallons of water strain it out and use it as part of my mash water.
Then I was like wait...... That's too easy gotta be a trick.... I'm missing something. Why haven't I done this b4? So I pondered. Went back, cracked open a few old books did some searching, reading....nothing. I found nothing answering this exact question. So I thought I'll see what others think before i just do it anyway see what happens for myself.

 

[Yooper]

I was contemplating new and unusual recipes over a pint the other day when this question came to mind. At first i was like duh that's a no brainer I'll just cook up a bunch of quick cook oatmeal with a cpl gallons of water strain it out and use it as part of my mash water.
Then I was like wait...... That's too easy gotta be a trick.... I'm missing something. Why haven't I done this b4? So I pondered. Went back, cracked open a few old books did some searching, reading....nothing. I found nothing answering this exact question. So I thought I'll see what others think before i just do it anyway see what happens for myself.

The reason it's not done is due to what I described- in order for the starch in the oats to be useful, they must be mashed with a base malt (an enzymatic activity) to change the starches to fermentable sugars. Otherwise, it'd be like adding a handful or three of flour to the wort. The same results would occur.

 

[Satanic_Four]

I understand how the mashing process works. And that enzymes from the base malt split the beta glucan starches from the oats into shorter less complex starches during a beta rest. Then at higher temps other enzymes turn some of those starches into fermentable sugars. I get how that works.

So with that in mind my question isnt weather or not I can add "oatmeal water" to my boil; it wont be fetmentable by S.c. because there is nothing to convert it into a usable form for standard brewing yeast.( I know that)

My thought is whether or not it would be acceptable to gelatinize the starches from an amount of oats into a portion of water (essentially creating a oat starch extraction) then strain out the spent oat grains. Saving my "oatmeal water" and add that water to the rest of my mash water with the grains and do a regular infusion or step infusion.
The idea is to not even have the gunky sticky mushy left over spent oats grains in the mash in the first place. It makes a mess in my opinion and can create problems the higher percentage used.

 

[stpug]

What you describe can be done (obviously) and you can get some of the oat contribution from it; however, you are likely to leave behind a large portion of the oat starches in the filtered grain you don't want to add to the MLT. You could pulverize the crap out of the oats - turn it to dust - and then attempt to strain that into your MLT to get more/most of the oat contribution but technically you'd just be including the oats in pulverized form which may actually make more of a mess and stickier mash than tossing them in whole. Personally, I have never had problems with 5-10% oats in my all barley mashes and I generally leave them whole. HTH!

 

[masonsjax]

That's my thought too, you'd be throwing out most of the starch. It would be like mashing without the grain, just soaking it in water and trying to mash the runoff. It might work, but my guess is your efficiency would take a serious hit.

 

[Satanic_Four]

What you describe can be done (obviously) and you can get some of the oat contribution from it; however, you are likely to leave behind a large portion of the oat starches in the filtered grain you don't want to add to the MLT. You could pulverize the crap out of the oats - turn it to dust - and then attempt to strain that into your MLT to get more/most of the oat contribution but technically you'd just be including the oats in pulverized form which may actually make more of a mess and stickier mash than tossing them in whole. Personally, I have never had problems with 5-10% oats in my all barley mashes and I generally leave them whole. HTH!

Yeh I was thinking about that too extraction efficiency might be lower as the oat grains arnt being lautered mearly strained. i like to toast a portion of my oats to a nutty brown it gives a delicious flavor but not much starch so I havta bump up the amount I use of regular untoasted oats. Making the percentage 20 to 25% or more in an "imperial" or high gravity style beer. I've had problems in the past with that even with rice hulls.
I'm not sure i want to pulverize the oats though that seems messy or excessive.
this also got me thinking won't this work with other adjunts. Just steaping them and adding the extract into the mash.
I considered it might also benefit biab brewers because sticky adjunct leftovers (especialy oats) can clog up mesh bags pretty easy.

 

[pjj2ba]

Starch is not water soluble. The only way to "dissolve" it is to let enzymes break it down into sugars. You could cook it and then either add some crushed barley malt or buy some amylase and add that to it and mash it separately

 

[Exportjo]

What you are describing almost sounds like an American Double Mash technique. This is where you have your regular mash that is perfectly capable of converting on its own, and an adjunct mash such as flaked/rolled corn that has no enzymes. Typically the cereal adjunct mash is started first and an amylase source is added, it is then heated and pumped to your main mash...this is a bit simplified but enough to give an idea.

In your case, I assume you don't want the oats in your mash tun because they have potential to cause a stuck sparge? In which I would say add rice hulls...but however if you are set on this way I would suggest the following:

Start your rolled/flaked oats mash first. Take you oats and add about 10% of your grain bill and "mash" them together in whatever vessel you have that is not your mash tun, you want this mash to be thin. The grain you add should provide enough diastatic power to convert the starches from the oats. Bring this mash up to your desired temp., between 131 and 158. Let it convert, and then bring it to a boil ( this is why you want to mash thin). The boiling lowers viscosity and allows better pumping or in your case straining. While you wait for your adjunct mash to boil start your traditional barley mash, then add the strained wort from your adjunct mash and presto, continue your day as normal.


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[Satanic_Four]

Starch is not water soluble. The only way to "dissolve" it is to let enzymes break it down into sugars. You could cook it and then either add some crushed barley malt or buy some amylase and add that to it and mash it separately

Partially right.
Starch becomes soluble in water when heated. The granules swell and burst, the semi-crystalline structure is lost and the smaller amylose molecules start leaching out of the granule, forming a network that holds water and increasing the mixture's viscosity. This process is called starch gelatinization.

 

[Satanic_Four]

What you are describing almost sounds like an American Double Mash technique. This is where you have your regular mash that is perfectly capable of converting on its own, and an adjunct mash such as flaked/rolled corn that has no enzymes. Typically the cereal adjunct mash is started first and an amylase source is added, it is then heated and pumped to your main mash...this is a bit simplified but enough to give an idea.

In your case, I assume you don't want the oats in your mash tun because they have potential to cause a stuck sparge? In which I would say add rice hulls...but however if you are set on this way I would suggest the following:

Start your rolled/flaked oats mash first. Take you oats and add about 10% of your grain bill and "mash" them together in whatever vessel you have that is not your mash tun, you want this mash to be thin. The grain you add should provide enough diastatic power to convert the starches from the oats. Bring this mash up to your desired temp., between 131 and 158. Let it convert, and then bring it to a boil ( this is why you want to mash thin). The boiling lowers viscosity and allows better pumping or in your case straining. While you wait for your adjunct mash to boil start your traditional barley mash, then add the strained wort from your adjunct mash and presto, continue your day as normal.


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Not just stuck sparges but spent oat mush sticks to everything. I did a Sour oatmeal wiezen stout a few months ago that used about 6lbs total of oats or about 25% grain bill and im still finding crusty oat meal residue that some how magically made its way around and stuck to all kinds o crap. If I can just extract on my stove top and strain in my sink things will b a lot cleaner IMO.
Yes that is essentially what I'm describing. I actually ran into this while I was looking for answers. Its very informative. Though it still seems like more work than it needs to be. I just do not see y any kind of grain or amylase or enzymes need to be added to gelatinize the oats starches.
If I add 1lb of toasted quick oats and 1pound of regular quick oats to 3 gal of water and cook for 3 hrs at a low simmer then strain out the spent oats and add liquid to mash water and do a step infusion what would be the issue other than "poor" extraction efficiency wich isn't really an issue since oats are readily available in bulk at my corner store for $.80 a lb.

 

[pjj2ba]

Partially right.
Starch becomes soluble in water when heated. The granules swell and burst, the semi-crystalline structure is lost and the smaller amylose molecules start leaching out of the granule, forming a network that holds water and increasing the mixture's viscosity. This process is called starch gelatinization.

Partially right Gelatinization is not equal to dissolved - wikipedia is not technically correct. It just means the starch granules are broken up so that individual amylose chains are now suspended in water.

I guess, I'm using the specific chemistry definition and opposed to how it is used in common conversation (cooking)

 

[Satanic_Four]

Partially right Gelatinization is not equal to dissolved - wikipedia is not technically correct. It just means the starch granules are broken up so that individual amylose chains are now suspended in water.

I guess, I'm using the specific chemistry definition and opposed to how it is used in common conversation (cooking)

Yes that is correct but for the sake of this discussion is Immaterial. The important part is that the starches are separated/"extracted" (or mostly anyway)from the solid "waste" of the oat and "suspended" in the liquid.

 

[stpug]

I've looked and looked. Can't find exactly what i want to know.
Oats...... Can't I just cook them then strain out the liquid and add the extraction to my mash?
Seems like it would cut down considerably on the crud in my grain bed. But if I can how come no one seems to mention anything about it.

Your question was super simple. You've been given all sorts of answers and explanations related to your question, yet none seem to be the answer you want to hear. In fact, you seem to have better understanding on the use of adjuncts in beer brewing that those that have tried to help you out.

Rather than us waste your time, just do it and report back if you want.

BTW, I've cooked old fashioned Quaker oats plenty of times before. The resulting gruel would not drain through any kind of strainer I have around.

Good luck!

 

[Satanic_Four]

Your question was super simple. You've been given all sorts of answers and explanations related to your question, yet none seem to be the answer you want to hear. In fact, you seem to have better understanding on the use of adjuncts in beer brewing that those that have tried to help you out.

Rather than us waste your time, just do it and report back if you want.

BTW, I've cooked old fashioned Quaker oats plenty of times before. The resulting gruel would not drain through any kind of strainer I have around.

Good luck!

Wow my bad I had no intention of offending anyone.
Just trying to discuss an aspect of the brewing process that has as of late got my gears a grindin. Thought this might be a good place to do it as the only other people I have to talk to about it r my old lady who is sick of it at this point and my dog who is a good listener no doubt but contributes very little to the conversation.
I would like to apologize formally for my one sided excitable and possibly abrasive posts again I did not mean to offend. I'll stfu now and go have beer I guess

 

[Yooper]

Yes that is correct but for the sake of this discussion is Immaterial. The important part is that the starches are separated/"extracted" (or mostly anyway)from the solid "waste" of the oat and "suspended" in the liquid.

Wow my bad I had no intention of offending anyone.
Just trying to discuss an aspect of the brewing process that has as of late got my gears a grindin. Thought this might be a good place to do it as the only other people I have to talk to about it r my old lady who is sick of it at this point and my dog who is a good listener no doubt but contributes very little to the conversation.
I would like to apologize formally for my one sided excitable and possibly abrasive posts again I did not mean to offend. I'll stfu now and go have beer I guess

Oh, you don't have to shut up- and you didn't offend anyone!

You asked a question, and some of us do have a bit of chemistry and biology backgrounds as well as are experienced brewers.

Adding oat starch water will be like adding a cup of flour to the wort- it won't convert, and the starch will remain in the wort. It must be mashed, or treated with amylase or some such thing to break down the starch. You can do whatever you like of course, but we were just saying that adding oat water to the wort isn't the same as mashing oats and that without the enzymatic reactions, the starches won't convert to sugars.

Starch doesn't dissolve in wort, in the chemical sense.

 

[stpug]

Wow my bad I had no intention of offending anyone.
Just trying to discuss an aspect of the brewing process that has as of late got my gears a grindin. Thought this might be a good place to do it as the only other people I have to talk to about it r my old lady who is sick of it at this point and my dog who is a good listener no doubt but contributes very little to the conversation.
I would like to apologize formally for my one sided excitable and possibly abrasive posts again I did not mean to offend. I'll stfu now and go have beer I guess

Sorry about that. I did come across more snippy that I intended, and I'm not offended.

It just seems that you have an idea about dissolving oats in water and adding to your MLT for conversion. As long as you're adding to your MLT during the saccharification rest then you'll probably get conversion of whatever starches you happen to get into solution. I would suggest you try your intended plan because it should not have a detrimental effect on your resulting beer as long as you're adding the oat water to your MLT. Just have a method devised to measure your results so you can know if (how much) additional conversion was achieved through your oat water experiment. Cool conclusions have been drawn through crazier experiments than you're suggesting so I say "go for it" and let us know what you find out.

 

[BrewerinBR]

What has been described here is something I have been doing for a while now and it is in fact called a Cereal Mash! I use it in a stepped mash schedule. It is not complex, however an understanding of grain (or grass as all cereal grains are) is essential.
1. Not all grain starches are equal.
Each grain has a unique gelatinization temperature (case in point oats
gelatinize at 138F) note: I use the term oats not oatmeal they are
different.
2. Gelatinizing of a grain does not make it's starch (a polysaccharide) water
soluble. Gelatinization bursts the cell of the grain making the starch
available to be suspended in water where it can then be acted on by
enzymes. A process known as hydrolysis.
3. Gelatinization occurs during the process of "flaking" or "rolling" or "steel cut"
depending on the grain and how it is to be used. Thus we have oatmeal
(flaked oats) or steel cut oats or rolled oats or flaked maize or flaked
barley. Gelatinization can only occur in the presence of water.
4. The processing of grain to make it usable in the production of food, beer,
whiskey ... is dependent on the type of grass er grain and its properties.

For the most part we home brewers do not deal with raw grain and the grains we use even in all grain brewing have been processed in some manner. Including the barley which has been malted (making its enzymes and polysaccharides available for use)

Looking at oatmeal in particular (one of my favorite foods), Quick Oats are partially cooked flaked oats, Old Fashion Oats are flaked oats. When eating oatmeal in the morning you cook the oats and add your flavor enhancers and eat the cooked STARCH including the remaining plant cells {extremely difficult to separate}... and in the presence of water and acids and enzymes in your stomach and digestive tract break those POLYSACCHARIDES into disaccharides and monosaccarides (sugar) that your body burns as energy.

This process we attempt to recreate in the mash or the cereal mash. Some grains are easy as they gelatinize at temperatures we can use in the mash, such as oats. Others not so much. Simply adding flaked oats (AKA Oatmeal) to a mash with a base malt and many of those polysaccharides are broken down by the base malt enzymes into fermentable sugars. Also you will get flavoring proteins and other minerals and non-fermentable polysaccharides making a very nice mouth feel and flavor to a beer. Toasting the oatmeal prior to mashing will enhance the flavors and proteins and slightly reduce the amount of polysaccharides available to the enzymes.

I make a pretty wicked oatmeal stout and I use a cereal mash that consists of 1 LB Oatmeal, 1 LB Toasted Oatmeal, 1 LB long grain rice and 1 LB 6 Row Brewers Malt (higher in diastatic power than 2 row). Six quarts of water and heated to 122 for 30 minutes, then heated to 138 for 20 minutes, then heated to 153 for 20 minutes then heated to 191 (gelatinization temp of rice) for 30 minutes then boiled for 15 minutes. This is added to the main mash which is holding at 138. The boiling cereal mash increases the main mash to 153.

I have never used more than 14% oatmeal in any mash and make a pretty chewy, thick and creamy stout. There are some on HBT that can vouch for that. A higher percentage of oatmeal would put so much protein and polysaccharides in the beer that my guts would be a major gas factory for a day or more. The enzymes in the base malt could not break them all down and the yeast could not ferment them. Once I drank it I would be a walking methane factory since the acids and enzymes in my gut are much stronger than yeast... oooooh would I be shunned by family and friends... but thats me.....