Extract, using quick oats, no grains to mash

[Tall_Yotie]

Hi folks!

I'm trying an extract only beer (no grains even specialty) as an experiment, and want to add oats. I have quick oats. Everything I see says I need to mash them, but that doesn't make much sense as you can just cook oats in water and be good to go. I'm looking for that mouth feel and head retention.

Could I bag and add them for a set time during boil? Could I cook them sperate on the stove top and just add the liquid to my wort? The latter makes the most sense to me, but wanting to make sure it makes sense to others.

Thanks for any input!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Oats are mostly starch, the mash converts most of the starch to fermentable sugars.

When I eat oatmeal I expect a bowl of gelatinous starch. When I drink a beer, an oatmeal stout even, I don't want a glass of gelatinous starch.

 

[IslandLizard]

Mashing is needed to convert starches into sugars. That's why you'd need to use some diastatic malt to convert adjuncts (non-diastatic grain) by means of a (mini-)mash.
If you just steep or add your flaked/rolled oats to your extract based wort, all those starches will settle out as trub, and contribute nothing.

Cooking (boiling) is not going to convert starches into sugars. You'd need to add enzymes to the mash directly or add diastatic malt (which contains the necessary enzymes). Diastatic enzymes only work in a narrow temperature window (~146-158F).

 

[CascadesBrewer]

What type of beer are you making? Oats, and other similar grains, will have a bunch of starches. Adding them to a mash will reduce the amount of starches added into your beer, and also add in some fermentable sugars. Word is that unconverted starches will contribute to haze and a lower shelf life of a beer.

A while back I made two versions of a Hazy Pale Ale. One of those had Flaked Oats in a partial mash (with Malted Wheat) and the other had both Flaked Oats and Flaked Wheat steeped. Given that it was a sub 5% beer that was supposed to be hazy, I thought the steeped version turned out a little better than the partial mash version.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm trying an extract only beer [...]
and want to add oats. Everything I see says I need to mash them [...]

you can just cook oats in water and be good to go.
I'm looking for that mouth feel and head retention.

Cooking oats in water will make "porridge" out of them, arguably more edible and digestible compared to eating them raw.

Mouthfeel and head retention are mostly due to dextrins, which are relatively short, leftover chains, after the long starch molecules have been chopped up by the enzymes in the mash (alpha and beta-amylase mostly).

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

So how come there are extract kits like this one that have flaked oats them? I've never seen any that mentioned adding enzymes, so are those kits just going to be kind of weird?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

caramel oat malt? (link)

 

[IslandLizard]

So how come there are extract kits like this one that have flaked oats them?

Pay attention to the source. NB is no different.
Not that we would expect a satisfying answer, they should be asked that question.

BRUNCH STOUT
LME KIT / DME KIT
• 1 lb Chocolate Malt
• 1 lb Flaked Oats
• 12 oz Roasted Barley
• 8 oz Black Malt
• 8 oz Caramel 120°L

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So how come there are extract kits like this one that have flaked oats them?

Maybe the small amount of starch from steeping (vs mashing) doesn't matter that much.

Also, @CascadesBrewer , in #4, has some observations worth considering.

 

[IslandLizard]

Maybe the small amount of starch from steeping (vs mashing) doesn't matter that much.

Maybe not, but what do they contribute that increases mouthfeel and "silkyness."

 

[DBhomebrew]

I'm trying an extract only beer (no grains even specialty) as an experiment, and [...] looking for [improved] mouth feel and head retention.

In lieu of unconverted unmalted oats (a grain, special even) how about a pound or two of wheat D/LME (~50/50 wheat/barley)?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Maybe not, but what do they contribute that increases mouthfeel and "silkyness."

caramel oat malt (#7) product descriptions contain similar phrases and those malts can often be steeped (or mashed)

 

[madscientist451]

Mashing is needed to convert starches into sugars. That's why you'd need to use some diastatic malt to convert adjuncts (non-diastatic grain) by means of a (mini-)mash.

I've used amylase enzyme when making Brut IPA and low calorie lagers, would that work with unmalted oats and other unmalted grains?

 

[IslandLizard]

I've used amylase enzyme when making Brut IPA and low calorie lagers, would that work with unmalted oats and other unmalted grains?

Depends on the amylases used.
Gluco amylase will break down pretty much every starch and dextrin into simple sugars, hence the making of a Brut.

When only adding alpha and beta amylases to a bunch of flaked/rolled oats (or flaked wheat, barley, rye, etc.) gelatinized in the right amount of water, and kept at 148-156F for an hour or so, should yield a similar result as mashing those flakes with diastatic malts.

 

[doug293cz]

Diastatic enzymes only work in a narrow temperature window (~146-158F).

This is not totally true. It is true if you want the enzyme action to be completed in less than a couple of hours. But, the reason that the enzymes even exist is to convert starch in the seeds to sugar that can fuel the growth of plant sprouts, until leaves are formed and photosynthesis can begin. Seeds will sprout and grow at room temps, and somewhat lower. Diastatic enzymes can be used in fermenters to break down starch, since you have a time frame of days rather than minutes.

Brew on

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Pay attention to the source. NB is no different.

Given the existing recipe (or perhaps the 'all-grain' recipe that it was based on), how would you convert it into a better extract+steep recipe? If you are using enzymes, specific brands and amounts are necessary to get "full credit" when the recipe is evaluated.

 

[IslandLizard]

Given the existing recipe (or perhaps the 'all-grain' recipe that it was based on), how would you convert it into a better extract+steep recipe? If you are using enzymes, specific brands and amounts are necessary to get "full credit" when the recipe is evaluated.

The most straightforward replacement would be doing a small volume mini-mash with (included) diastatic malt, to convert the flaked oats (or other of such adjuncts).

But those recipe kits aren't meant to add extra steps, or time, they're made to be simple and quick, Duncan Hines style.

A 50-75% flaked oats-based extract could be a solution if it could add those specific oat characteristics. Or perhaps a small amount of maltodextrin could simulate it well enough?

BTW, has anyone done any in-depth research of what's actually added to a beer when using flaked oats? Is it all about some silkiness in the mouthfeel?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

BTW, has anyone done any in-depth research of what's actually added to a beer when using flaked oats? Is it all about some silkiness in the mouthfeel?

I have no clue how well researched this article is, but seems reasonable: Brewing With Oats - Brew Your Own
My take would be to substitute Golden Naked Oats (ie, already malted and crystallized) for extract recipes that otherwise call for "flaked oats", presuming one doesn't want to mini-mash with some base malt.

 

[Bobby_M]

Any recipe that comes in the Brewer's Best extract kits that have oats will specify a mini mash with a pound of 2 row. That's probably the best way to handle it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I have no clue how well researched this article is, but seems reasonable: Brewing With Oats - Brew Your Own
My take would be to substitute Golden Naked Oats (ie, already malted and crystallized) for extract recipes that otherwise call for "flaked oats", presuming one doesn't want to mini-mash with some base malt.

I linked to a similar article from CB&B back in #6.

caramel oat malt? (link)

I've used Simpson's GNO a couple of times - it "worked for me".

There are a couple of similar caramel / crystal oat malt products available from other maltsters (link).

---

The truth of brewing still comes largely down to our ability to be clever, accurate, and on point during fermentation. There’s very little you can’t do with extract... including make a hazy IPA.

 

[Hawkey Brew]

So how come there are extract kits like this one that have flaked oats them? I've never seen any that mentioned adding enzymes, so are those kits just going to be kind of weird?

You are basically doing a mini mash and taking the grains out when your water gets to 170.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

slightly off topic, but for those looking to improve those "Duncan Hines style" recipes

Great Western Caramel Steam malt.

More information in the article "Style School: [...] American Amber Ale" in Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine, Winter 2023, p 36. I haven't brewed with it yet (but it looks like Farmhouse Brewing Supply stocks it).

 

[CascadesBrewer]

You are basically doing a mini mash and taking the grains out when your water gets to 170.

There are plenty of kits and recipes around there that just steep flaked oats. If you don't have a base grain with diastatic power, it is not a mini-mash, no matter what temperature you hold the water. The same applies to recipes that I see steeping malts like Aromatic/Biscuit/Victory.

If you just soak some flaked oats in water for a little bit, you will produce a bit of a milky liquid with a bit of grainy, oat flavor. I suspect oat milk is made with a similar process. Adding a starchy water with some oat flavor is probably fine for an oatmeal stout or for a hazy IPA. In my experience referenced earlier, steeping flaked oats and flaked wheat in a low ABV hazy pale ale added some welcome body and texture.

A crystal oats like Golden Naked Oats is probably the best solution that can be used for most styles.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you read the instructions for this kit you are basically doing a mini mash and taking the grains out when your water gets to 170.

Historically, there has been a difference between steeping and mashing.

• steeping extracts existing sugars, colors, flavors.
• mashing converts starches into sugars

With this set of definitions, a mini-mash would require a base malt (source of enzymes) to convert starches into sugars.

---

Note that there have been, are, and always will be quality recipe sources that call a steeping process (no base malts involved) a "mini-mash".

So it's probably best for us just to note the differences and remember that good beer will be made if a "steep" is called a "mini-mash".

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I suspect oat milk is made with a similar process.

Oat milk is mentioned in the CB&B article I linked to in #20.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Oat milk is mentioned in the CB&B article I linked to in #20.

At least that article says that oat milk is made with added enzymes (that I assume help break down the starches). Most alternative milk products at the grocery store have several other ingredients, that might not be ideal to add to a beer.

The easiest, hackiest solution is to use oat milk, a dairy alternative made from soaked oats and enzymes. Remember, liquid starch is highly undesirable in a shelf-stable foodstuff. Manufacturers will soak oats with amylase to convert starch into sugar and then blend and strain the gruel into a milk-like product. Several breweries and homebrewers have added oat milk straight to the kettle post boil. The result is an outstanding murk with plenty of sugar for fermentation.

 

[Miraculix]

I've read a few times in this thread that oats increase head retention. That is wrong, oats actually decrease head retention after a certain threshold has been reached and at no point they increase head.

 

[mac_1103]

But those recipe kits aren't meant to add extra steps, or time, they're made to be simple and quick, Duncan Hines style.

Betty Crocker would like a word.

 

[mac_1103]

If you don't have a base grain with diastatic power, it is not a mini-mash, no matter what temperature you hold the water. The same applies to recipes that I see steeping malts like Aromatic/Biscuit/Victory.

Aromatic and Biscuit malts do have some diastatic power. Maybe not enough to do much in 20 minutes with 8 ounces in 2 gallons, but not none. OTOH, there is zero diastatic power in the specialty grains in that MoreBeer kit.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Betty Crocker would like a word.

As does Hamburger Helper.

 

[mac_1103]

As does Hamburger Helper.

That would be the same word, right? Anyway, I try to avoid conversing with inanimate objects. Especially when I'm in the middle of a meaningful discussion with a fictitious person.

 

[Quentin Nelson]

So how come there are extract kits like this one that have flaked oats them? I've never seen any that mentioned adding enzymes, so are those kits just going to be kind of weird?

Good question Hank!
All those other specialty grains have been roasted dark, with or without a previous mash conversation. They are all the sort of adjuncts I add at the end of a normal mash for flavor and color. Except the flaked oats... the UNMASHED oats would contribute a lot of haze and unconverted starch. I would probably never brew a recipe like this. Too much superfluous sugary junk for my taste. And I’d prefer my bourbon on the side with one ice cube.

 

[Bobby_M]

Not sure if it was mentioned yet but you can also use malted oats if you're willing to steep them in a smaller container of water at about 150F (aka, mash them).

 

[VikeMan]

I've read a few times in this thread that oats increase head retention. That is wrong, oats actually decrease head retention after a certain threshold has been reached and at no point they increase head.

True. I'm not even sure there's a threshold, really. Oats are rich in lipids, which is a foam killer. A small amount of oats in a grain bill won't necessarily result in unsatisfactory foam retention, but I'd bet a paycheck that all else being equal, even a small amount of oats will result in less foam than no oats. It's largely about the proportions of "foam positive" to "foam negative" compounds.

 

[mac_1103]

I'd bet a paycheck that all else being equal, even a small amount of oats will result in less foam than no oats.

Does it matter if they're malted, or is this false advertizing?

 

[VikeMan]

Does it matter if they're malted, or is this false advertizing?

I think it's a little less clear with malted oats. My subjective experience is that they are not as bad for foam as unmalted oats, but maybe "neutral" at best. If I had to hazard a guess as to why, it would be that malted oats effectively undergo a protein rest during malting, increasing the ratio of their foam positive medium-ish proteins to foam negative lipids, as compared to unmalted.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

True. I'm not even sure there's a threshold, really. Oats are rich in lipids, which is a foam killer. A small amount of oats in a grain bill won't necessarily result in unsatisfactory foam retention, but I'd bet a paycheck that all else being equal, even a small amount of oats will result in less foam than no oats. It's largely about the proportions of "foam positive" to "foam negative" compounds.

Yeah, I recall brewing an Oatmeal Stout with 1 lb of flaked oats (I think I started with the Northern Brewer kit). I thought jacking that up to 2 lbs would get the ABV where I wanted it and boost the body. The head retention tanked. I then added 1 lb of wheat into the next batch. That seemed to help bring the head retention back, but at this point the beer was a bit out of balance with not enough roast for the extra 2 lbs of grains....but I liked it so I just called it an Imperial Oatmeal Porter. I need to brew that recipe again.

Speaking of "foam positive" and "foam negative"...I was on a webinar recently with Charlie Bamforth (the King of Foam). He said that while Crystal malts have been found to be foam negative, this property results in less foaming during the brewing process which can result in better foam in the final beer (he indicated that some of the foam negative properties don't make it through to the final beer).

 

[Miraculix]

True. I'm not even sure there's a threshold, really. Oats are rich in lipids, which is a foam killer. A small amount of oats in a grain bill won't necessarily result in unsatisfactory foam retention, but I'd bet a paycheck that all else being equal, even a small amount of oats will result in less foam than no oats. It's largely about the proportions of "foam positive" to "foam negative" compounds.

I think the theory behind the threshold was that the yeast is happily munching on the lipids and incorporating them into their cell walls, up to a certain amount. But those which are left over would be problematic, that's true.

 

[mac_1103]

So use malted oats to make your starter and dump the whole thing in?

 

[Miraculix]

So use malted oats to make your starter and dump the whole thing in?

Using oats in a starter would be actually a really good idea. Oats promote yeast health big time. I've read that and after reading I've made experiments and the same beer with just 10% of the grist replaced with oats finished a few days earlier than the normal beer.