Pressure cooker: A decoction hack?

[DuncB]

Why not just put a very thick portion of the mash and some liquor in a pan and bring it to the boil and add it in.
The wheel has already been made by others.

 

[Broothru]

Why not just put a very thick portion of the mash and some liquor in a pan and bring it to the boil and add it in.
The wheel has already been made by others.

That’s effectively the same thing as pressure ‘canning’ a thick mash, without having to do an actual detoction. Strike water and grist in several quart canning jars, sous vide mash with precise temperature control in the jars, then pressure can (boil) @ 250F. Combine the contents with the main mash. Mash out, sparge, boil.

Extra work, yes. But work that can be performed a day or more before the brew day. Less mess, more control. Same end results?

Don’t know. Worth a try? Won’t know unless I give it a try. Better beer? Guess we’ll see.

 

[Miraculix]

Update: im back in the states and jet lagged as hell!!
Plan to brew this 1/27
To clarify i have no intention of pressure cooking grist. Just a portion of the wort *after 15-20 minutes of mashing) for about 30. Then adding back to mash when its time to mashout. Ill save a shot of the pre pressure boiled wort to compare to a shot of the post.

Why do you want to heat only the wort beyond 100c? The whole decoction thing is about heating the grain with some wort, not the wort alone. What do you expect to happen that improves your beer?

 

[AlcheMania]

Why do you want to heat only the wort beyond 100c? The whole decoction thing is about heating the grain with some wort, not the wort alone. What do you expect to happen that improves your beer?

Mostly maillard reactions.
Many if not most of the old reasons to decoct have been made moot with modern malts, chemistry, etc.
Also, base malt is cheap.

 

[AlcheMania]

Written in 1914 this paper gives the results of pressure boiling wort of different sugar makeups for various periods of time. The more alkaline the wort and the more simple sugars (besides malt, i.e. sucrose, etc..) it was composed of the more color it gained during the pressure boil. Also noted are taste differences and brewing process differences from a regular boil.

The Chemistry of Pressure Wort Boiling

This is awesome! Thank you

 

[Miraculix]

Mostly maillard reactions.
Many if not most of the old reasons to decoct have been made moot with modern malts, chemistry, etc.
Also, base malt is cheap.

This has nothing to do with decoction. Decoction needs the presence of the grain bed to work. The crucial processes need the substances of the grain.

What you are planning to do is mimicking a prolonged boil in a short amount of time. Also interesting, but not a decoction, not even related to it.

 

[Red over White]

Krones Stromboli Kettles or similar do get to above boiling temp with wort. There has to be an affect us mere mortals can't achieve or appreciate. Keep us posted!

 

[AlcheMania]

Why do you want to heat only the wort beyond 100c? The whole decoction thing is about heating the grain with some wort, not the wort alone. What do you expect to happen that improves your beer?

This has nothing to do with decoction. Decoction needs the presence of the grain bed to work. The crucial processes need the substances of the grain.

What you are planning to do is mimicking a prolonged boil in a short amount of time. Also interesting, but not a decoction, not even related to

This has nothing to do with decoction. Decoction needs the presence of the grain bed to work. The crucial processes need the substances of the grain.

What you are planning to do is mimicking a prolonged boil in a short amount of time. Also interesting, but not a decoction, not even related to it.

Yes. Im not trying to decoct. Im getting the impression you may not have read my OP and are missing the point.

 

[Bassman2003]

50/50 imho! The association with decoction is kind of a faulty premise. Boiling the grain is more of the focus with decoction and any flavors that ensue. Extended or over-boiling of the wort is a separate technique - caramelization. Are the flavors related? I know pressure cooked wort is hyper blasted. My starter wort mason jars turn very dark after a run through the cooker at 15 psi. Certain styles might benefit from this treatment (thinking Scottish ales and the like). Pilsner/helles, I am not sure about. Maybe darker German styles but this treatment brings about a heavy impression to me which often does not fit lager beer.

But it is cool to try and learn from! Keep us posted.

 

[AlcheMania]

50/50 imho! The association with decoction is kind of a faulty premise. Boiling the grain is more of the focus with decoction and any flavors that ensue. Extended or over-boiling of the wort is a separate technique - caramelization. Are the flavors related? I know pressure cooked wort is hyper blasted. My starter wort mason jars turn very dark after a run through the cooker at 15 psi. Certain styles might benefit from this treatment (thinking Scottish ales and the like). Pilsner/helles, I am not sure about. Maybe darker German styles but this treatment brings about a heavy impression to me which often does not fit lager beer.

But it is cool to try and learn from! Keep us posted.

I see the where the confusion lies.
i thought naming the thread ....decoction hack" vs "....a better way to decoct" and discussing my thought process on the maillard reactions from extended boiling being a major contributer to flavor contributions in a traditional decoction would suffice.
But to further expand, the pressurization raises the rate at which the maillard reactions take place (at 212 its quite slow, the process accelerates above 115c (239) so 250F at 15psi should be spot on. So my thought process is that i can get an equivalent amount of maillard in about 1/2 to 1/3rd the time using the pressure cooker, thus allowing me to complete the process simultaneously during my usual mash time. It may be that the color contributions are more significant than the flavor contributions in the end. Will keep yall posted.

Cheers!

 

[Agent]

I guess I was also guilty in thinking that the hack was about using a pressure cooker to decoct faster, at higher temperatures, and without scorching.

Which I still want to try.

But I agree that the pressure cooking of wort should accomplish something in the same vein.

 

[Miraculix]

I see the where the confusion lies.
i thought naming the thread ....decoction hack" vs "....a better way to decoct" and discussing my thought process on the maillard reactions from extended boiling being a major contributer to flavor contributions in a traditional decoction would suffice.
But to further expand, the pressurization raises the rate at which the maillard reactions take place (at 212 its quite slow, the process accelerates above 115c (239) so 250F at 15psi should be spot on. So my thought process is that i can get an equivalent amount of maillard in about 1/2 to 1/3rd the time using the pressure cooker, thus allowing me to complete the process simultaneously during my usual mash time. It may be that the color contributions are more significant than the flavor contributions in the end. Will keep yall posted.

Cheers!

I think you are confusing a bit what decoction brings to the table and what not.

What decotion does is it "releases" remaining starches from the grain, that would not be available to the enzymes otherwise. For the homebrewer, this is usually not worth the amount of time spent with a decoction.

Decoction also leads to an enhanced creation of glycoproteins, which are increasing head retention and mouthfeel. This alone is enough reason for me to figure out an alternative route to speed up or simplify the decoction process. But you really need the grains to be present for this to happen.

Increased maillard reactions during the decoction process in general is a highly mystified and debatable topic. A lot of points suggest to put this into the "homebrewer´s myths" book. If you take a look into the interwebs, it is usually stated that maillard reactions take place mainly in a base environment. Wort in itself is acidic so the Ph is too low for enhanced Maillard reactions. I am not saying that Maillard is not happening at this Ph, but wort itself is certainly not Maillard-friendly. This holds also true for decoction environments (this is btw. also probably the reason, why tannins are not "boiled out" of the grains husks).

What is happening at elevated temperature is enhanced oxidation, and other processes. You can see this when the wort darkens in a prolonged boil.


So, at the end of the day, you are boiling at an elevated temperature and are doing what a prolonged boil would do at a normal boiling temperature. My point still stands, it has nothing to do with decoction.

 

[VikeMan]

What is happening at elevated temperature is enhanced oxidation, and other processes. You can see this when the wort darkens in a prolonged boil.

Are you suggesting that darkening during the boil is due to oxidation? The amount of dissolved O2 that water can hold (at equilibrium) at 212F is none.

 

[Miraculix]

Are you suggesting that darkening during the boil is due to oxidation? The amount of dissolved O2 that water can hold (at equilibrium) at 212F is none.

I do not suggest. If I do not say something directly, I do not know why.

 

[ba-brewer]

I pressure can wort for making starters, the wort darkens some during the heating process but also continues to get much more darker over time(weeks/months) as the the jars sit at room temp. Just my observations but seems consistent.

 

[AlcheMania]

I think you are confusing a bit what decoction brings to the table and what not.

What decotion does is it "releases" remaining starches from the grain, that would not be available to the enzymes otherwise. For the homebrewer, this is usually not worth the amount of time spent with a decoction.

Decoction also leads to an enhanced creation of glycoproteins, which are increasing head retention and mouthfeel. This alone is enough reason for me to figure out an alternative route to speed up or simplify the decoction process. But you really need the grains to be present for this to happen.

Increased maillard reactions during the decoction process in general is a highly mystified and debatable topic. A lot of points suggest to put this into the "homebrewer´s myths" book. If you take a look into the interwebs, it is usually stated that maillard reactions take place mainly in a base environment. Wort in itself is acidic so the Ph is too low for enhanced Maillard reactions. I am not saying that Maillard is not happening at this Ph, but wort itself is certainly not Maillard-friendly. This holds also true for decoction environments (this is btw. also probably the reason, why tannins are not "boiled out" of the grains husks).

What is happening at elevated temperature is enhanced oxidation, and other processes. You can see this when the wort darkens in a prolonged boil.


So, at the end of the day, you are boiling at an elevated temperature and are doing what a prolonged boil would do at a normal boiling temperature. My point still stands, it has nothing to do with decoction.

While it is true that maillard reactions occur more rapidly at higher PH levels, it is also true that temperatures can have a great enough impact so as to overcome the effect of fairly large PH differences. Ive included screenshots from a study that measured darkening and phenol production of cane sugar at different ph and temps. As you can see the measured differences between 100c and 115c were larger than a pH diff of 2 (4 vs 6 vs 8). Pressure cookers sit at bout 120 C.

 

[AlcheMania]

I pressure can wort for making starters, the wort darkens some during the heating process but also continues to get much more darker over time(weeks/months) as the the jars sit at room temp. Just my observations but seems consistent.

My guess is the former is maillard and the latter is oxidation.

 

[ba-brewer]

My guess is the former is maillard and the latter is oxidation.

My guess too.
before and after 30min 15psi for reference

edit: briess golden light DME dissolved in 160ish hot water diluted to ~1.040

 

[AlcheMania]

My guess too.
before and after 30min 15psi for reference
View attachment 839537

Lovely!
I look forward to playing goldilocks over several batches to get the color addition just right.

 

[Miraculix]

While it is true that maillard reactions occur more rapidly at higher PH levels, it is also true that temperatures can have a great enough impact so as to overcome the effect of fairly large PH differences. Ive included screenshots from a study that measured darkening and phenol production of cane sugar at different ph and temps. As you can see the measured differences between 100c and 115c were larger than a pH diff of 2 (4 vs 6 vs 8). Pressure cookers sit at bout 120 C.

You're very skillfully omitting the main point of what I was saying, which is Maillard reactions seem to play a neglectable role when it comes to decoctions. This means that trying to increase maillard reactions with a higher temperature, is mimicking a prolonged boil, but not a decoction.

Also, whatever happens during decoction is very likely depending on the presence of the grains.

 

[AlcheMania]

You're very skillfully omitting the main point of what I was saying, which is Maillard reactions seem to play a neglectable role when it comes to decoctions. This means that trying to increase maillard reactions with a higher temperature, is mimicking a prolonged boil, but not a decoction.

Also, whatever happens during decoction is very likely depending on the presence of the grains.

Negligible in what way? I only seek to recreate the maillard processes of a decoction. A prolonged boil of a portion of wort takes place during a traditional triple decoction. I seek to recreate this within the timeframe of my usual mash schedule. (Winning!) I also believe the presence of grain in the decoction has more to do with creating brewing conditions that are mostly moot given modern malting and brewing techniques.

 

[Miraculix]

Negligible in what way? I only seek to recreate the maillard processes of a decoction. A prolonged boil of a portion of wort takes place during a traditional triple decoction. I seek to recreate this within the timeframe of my usual mash schedule. (Winning!) I also believe the presence of grain in the decoction has more to do with creating brewing conditions that are mostly moot given modern malting and brewing techniques.

There was a recent thread here, I think it was called something like "the fraud that decoction has become" or something like this. It would be far easier if you could just read it, I´m not so good in remebering all the details... let me try to find it.....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/the-fraud-that-has-become-decoction.729988/
The OP seems a bit upfront at first but the following conversation is really interesting.

 

[GoodTruble]

Just a reminder - please post pics of the pressure cooker (-I think it will be fine, but would like to confirm before I mess mine up too =c) ).

 

[Miraculix]

I am seriously thinking about pressure cooking the whole mash.... just to see what happens. I have a pressure cooker that holds 23 litres. I mean, for keptinis, the whole mash gets baked, so could not be that bad. I am just not so shure about the scorching at the bottom of the pot. The pot is not high grade.

 

[AlcheMania]

I am seriously thinking about pressure cooking the whole mash.... just to see what happens. I have a pressure cooker that holds 23 litres. I mean, for keptinis, the whole mash gets baked, so could not be that bad. I am just not so shure about the scorching at the bottom of the pot. The pot is not high grade.

As in after the sach rest?
Keptinis, hell i had to look that one up. That gives me an idea.... sticking thick mash in a big dutch oven with a heavy lid, bringing to boil then putting it in an oven @ 280F ish so scorching from prolonged boiling is a non issue. Id sooner do that than the potential disaster of sticking crushed grain in a pressure cooker.

 

[Miraculix]

As in after the sach rest?
Keptinis, hell i had to look that one up. That gives me an idea.... sticking thick mash in a big dutch oven with a heavy lid, bringing to boil then putting it in an oven @ 280F ish so scorching from prolonged boiling is a non issue. Id sooner do that than the potential disaster of sticking crushed grain in a pressure cooker.

I have made keptinis once, it was actually a great beer! You dough in with boiling water, just enough to reach about 65 C in the mash, keep it insulated for about an hour and than bake the whole thing at very high temperature. It caramelises everywhere outside and the resulting beer is REALLY complex in flavour. I chickened out, could have kept it for longer in the oven. But as soon as it started to seriously get brown from the outside, I took it out. Next time, I would keep it in there for longer and apreciate the stronger caramelisation. Best thing is, you only need pale malt, that's it.

If you are after caramelisation and maillard, that is the thing you want to do!

Now that I am thinking about it.... adding about 5% roasted grain would result in a really nice, rich and complex stout. Maybe that would be also an idea to follow.

After the baking, you would need obviously to throw it into the heated brewing water at about 70 C, and sparge/lauter/biab or whatever you are usually doing.

 

[beren]

nevermind already said

 

[beren]

Increased maillard reactions during the decoction process in general is a highly mystified and debatable topic. A lot of points suggest to put this into the "homebrewer´s myths" book. If you take a look into the interwebs, it is usually stated that maillard reactions take place mainly in a base environment. Wort in itself is acidic so the Ph is too low for enhanced Maillard reactions. I am not saying that Maillard is not happening at this Ph, but wort itself is certainly not Maillard-friendly. This holds also true for decoction environments (this is btw. also probably the reason, why tannins are not "boiled out" of the grains husks).

I agree with you, but crazy enough an acid enviroment can cause the same chemical changes over very long times, check out the wikipedia entry Maillard reaction - Wikipedia

 

[Pablo 54]

Very interesting thread. I know more now than I did at the beginning.

My $0.02 worth.

I've done both methods, pressure cooker and regular decoction. Also, nowadays, I generally only do this with 3 gallon batches for hefes and follow the Hochkurz Double Decoction from Braukaiser but tweaked for my process.

Things I do regardless of method:

1. Drain as much wort from the grains as possible.
2. Add about 1 quart or more of distilled water (pH 7) to the decoction pot or pressure cooker.
3. Slowly work your way to a boil. Pressure cooker does this automatically.
   1. Optional rest at 158f. I generally skip this since almost all the enzymes are still in the tun.
4. Boil ~20 minutes per decoction. Pressure cooker takes a bit longer.

Results:

1. Regular Decoction
   
   1. Late in the second decoction the grains and liquid darken.
   2. The flavor of the liquid, to me, reminds me of a light caramel.
   3. A triple decoction makes my grains look like oatmeal. Not a bad thing.
2. Pressure Cooker
   
   1. Grain and liquid don't seem to darken as much as a regular decoction.
   2. The flavor, to me, does not seem as intense.

 

[Bassman2003]

This is close to what I settled on. I use a 2nd brew bag that has 1/3rd of the grist. I lift it out with a slow lift as to keep as much liquid in the main mash. I have strike water already in the 2nd kettle ready to go. I do a 15 min beta rest before I pull the 2nd bag out so some enzymes can come out. I also do an alpha rest over in the 2nd kettle but I guess that can be optional. I will experiment over time. The boiled grains come back for the rest of the mash program (alpha & mashout).

The concept of 'decoction for flavor only' is a little different than historical use. I think taking the parts that add flavor like intense heat might want to be emphasized. The idea of a triple decoction vs a long single might be an angle. Why do three steps if all we want is a flavor contribution? Or, is the "extra" starch that is available after the decoction better in some way? Some levers that can be pulled remain for flavor + convenience.