Pressure cooker: A decoction hack?

[Agent]

I guess I was also guilty in thinking that the hack was about using a pressure cooker to decoct faster, at higher temperatures, and without scorching.

Which I still want to try.

But I agree that the pressure cooking of wort should accomplish something in the same vein.

 

[Miraculix]

I see the where the confusion lies.
i thought naming the thread ....decoction hack" vs "....a better way to decoct" and discussing my thought process on the maillard reactions from extended boiling being a major contributer to flavor contributions in a traditional decoction would suffice.
But to further expand, the pressurization raises the rate at which the maillard reactions take place (at 212 its quite slow, the process accelerates above 115c (239) so 250F at 15psi should be spot on. So my thought process is that i can get an equivalent amount of maillard in about 1/2 to 1/3rd the time using the pressure cooker, thus allowing me to complete the process simultaneously during my usual mash time. It may be that the color contributions are more significant than the flavor contributions in the end. Will keep yall posted.

Cheers!

I think you are confusing a bit what decoction brings to the table and what not.

What decotion does is it "releases" remaining starches from the grain, that would not be available to the enzymes otherwise. For the homebrewer, this is usually not worth the amount of time spent with a decoction.

Decoction also leads to an enhanced creation of glycoproteins, which are increasing head retention and mouthfeel. This alone is enough reason for me to figure out an alternative route to speed up or simplify the decoction process. But you really need the grains to be present for this to happen.

Increased maillard reactions during the decoction process in general is a highly mystified and debatable topic. A lot of points suggest to put this into the "homebrewer´s myths" book. If you take a look into the interwebs, it is usually stated that maillard reactions take place mainly in a base environment. Wort in itself is acidic so the Ph is too low for enhanced Maillard reactions. I am not saying that Maillard is not happening at this Ph, but wort itself is certainly not Maillard-friendly. This holds also true for decoction environments (this is btw. also probably the reason, why tannins are not "boiled out" of the grains husks).

What is happening at elevated temperature is enhanced oxidation, and other processes. You can see this when the wort darkens in a prolonged boil.


So, at the end of the day, you are boiling at an elevated temperature and are doing what a prolonged boil would do at a normal boiling temperature. My point still stands, it has nothing to do with decoction.

 

[VikeMan]

What is happening at elevated temperature is enhanced oxidation, and other processes. You can see this when the wort darkens in a prolonged boil.

Are you suggesting that darkening during the boil is due to oxidation? The amount of dissolved O2 that water can hold (at equilibrium) at 212F is none.

 

[Miraculix]

Are you suggesting that darkening during the boil is due to oxidation? The amount of dissolved O2 that water can hold (at equilibrium) at 212F is none.

I do not suggest. If I do not say something directly, I do not know why.

 

[ba-brewer]

I pressure can wort for making starters, the wort darkens some during the heating process but also continues to get much more darker over time(weeks/months) as the the jars sit at room temp. Just my observations but seems consistent.

 

[AlcheMania]

I think you are confusing a bit what decoction brings to the table and what not.

What decotion does is it "releases" remaining starches from the grain, that would not be available to the enzymes otherwise. For the homebrewer, this is usually not worth the amount of time spent with a decoction.

Decoction also leads to an enhanced creation of glycoproteins, which are increasing head retention and mouthfeel. This alone is enough reason for me to figure out an alternative route to speed up or simplify the decoction process. But you really need the grains to be present for this to happen.

Increased maillard reactions during the decoction process in general is a highly mystified and debatable topic. A lot of points suggest to put this into the "homebrewer´s myths" book. If you take a look into the interwebs, it is usually stated that maillard reactions take place mainly in a base environment. Wort in itself is acidic so the Ph is too low for enhanced Maillard reactions. I am not saying that Maillard is not happening at this Ph, but wort itself is certainly not Maillard-friendly. This holds also true for decoction environments (this is btw. also probably the reason, why tannins are not "boiled out" of the grains husks).

What is happening at elevated temperature is enhanced oxidation, and other processes. You can see this when the wort darkens in a prolonged boil.


So, at the end of the day, you are boiling at an elevated temperature and are doing what a prolonged boil would do at a normal boiling temperature. My point still stands, it has nothing to do with decoction.

While it is true that maillard reactions occur more rapidly at higher PH levels, it is also true that temperatures can have a great enough impact so as to overcome the effect of fairly large PH differences. Ive included screenshots from a study that measured darkening and phenol production of cane sugar at different ph and temps. As you can see the measured differences between 100c and 115c were larger than a pH diff of 2 (4 vs 6 vs 8). Pressure cookers sit at bout 120 C.

 

[AlcheMania]

I pressure can wort for making starters, the wort darkens some during the heating process but also continues to get much more darker over time(weeks/months) as the the jars sit at room temp. Just my observations but seems consistent.

My guess is the former is maillard and the latter is oxidation.

 

[ba-brewer]

My guess is the former is maillard and the latter is oxidation.

My guess too.
before and after 30min 15psi for reference

edit: briess golden light DME dissolved in 160ish hot water diluted to ~1.040

 

[AlcheMania]

My guess too.
before and after 30min 15psi for reference
View attachment 839537

Lovely!
I look forward to playing goldilocks over several batches to get the color addition just right.

 

[Miraculix]

While it is true that maillard reactions occur more rapidly at higher PH levels, it is also true that temperatures can have a great enough impact so as to overcome the effect of fairly large PH differences. Ive included screenshots from a study that measured darkening and phenol production of cane sugar at different ph and temps. As you can see the measured differences between 100c and 115c were larger than a pH diff of 2 (4 vs 6 vs 8). Pressure cookers sit at bout 120 C.

You're very skillfully omitting the main point of what I was saying, which is Maillard reactions seem to play a neglectable role when it comes to decoctions. This means that trying to increase maillard reactions with a higher temperature, is mimicking a prolonged boil, but not a decoction.

Also, whatever happens during decoction is very likely depending on the presence of the grains.

 

[AlcheMania]

You're very skillfully omitting the main point of what I was saying, which is Maillard reactions seem to play a neglectable role when it comes to decoctions. This means that trying to increase maillard reactions with a higher temperature, is mimicking a prolonged boil, but not a decoction.

Also, whatever happens during decoction is very likely depending on the presence of the grains.

Negligible in what way? I only seek to recreate the maillard processes of a decoction. A prolonged boil of a portion of wort takes place during a traditional triple decoction. I seek to recreate this within the timeframe of my usual mash schedule. (Winning!) I also believe the presence of grain in the decoction has more to do with creating brewing conditions that are mostly moot given modern malting and brewing techniques.

 

[Miraculix]

Negligible in what way? I only seek to recreate the maillard processes of a decoction. A prolonged boil of a portion of wort takes place during a traditional triple decoction. I seek to recreate this within the timeframe of my usual mash schedule. (Winning!) I also believe the presence of grain in the decoction has more to do with creating brewing conditions that are mostly moot given modern malting and brewing techniques.

There was a recent thread here, I think it was called something like "the fraud that decoction has become" or something like this. It would be far easier if you could just read it, I´m not so good in remebering all the details... let me try to find it.....

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/the-fraud-that-has-become-decoction.729988/
The OP seems a bit upfront at first but the following conversation is really interesting.

 

[GoodTruble]

Just a reminder - please post pics of the pressure cooker (-I think it will be fine, but would like to confirm before I mess mine up too =c) ).

 

[Miraculix]

I am seriously thinking about pressure cooking the whole mash.... just to see what happens. I have a pressure cooker that holds 23 litres. I mean, for keptinis, the whole mash gets baked, so could not be that bad. I am just not so shure about the scorching at the bottom of the pot. The pot is not high grade.

 

[AlcheMania]

I am seriously thinking about pressure cooking the whole mash.... just to see what happens. I have a pressure cooker that holds 23 litres. I mean, for keptinis, the whole mash gets baked, so could not be that bad. I am just not so shure about the scorching at the bottom of the pot. The pot is not high grade.

As in after the sach rest?
Keptinis, hell i had to look that one up. That gives me an idea.... sticking thick mash in a big dutch oven with a heavy lid, bringing to boil then putting it in an oven @ 280F ish so scorching from prolonged boiling is a non issue. Id sooner do that than the potential disaster of sticking crushed grain in a pressure cooker.

 

[Miraculix]

As in after the sach rest?
Keptinis, hell i had to look that one up. That gives me an idea.... sticking thick mash in a big dutch oven with a heavy lid, bringing to boil then putting it in an oven @ 280F ish so scorching from prolonged boiling is a non issue. Id sooner do that than the potential disaster of sticking crushed grain in a pressure cooker.

I have made keptinis once, it was actually a great beer! You dough in with boiling water, just enough to reach about 65 C in the mash, keep it insulated for about an hour and than bake the whole thing at very high temperature. It caramelises everywhere outside and the resulting beer is REALLY complex in flavour. I chickened out, could have kept it for longer in the oven. But as soon as it started to seriously get brown from the outside, I took it out. Next time, I would keep it in there for longer and apreciate the stronger caramelisation. Best thing is, you only need pale malt, that's it.

If you are after caramelisation and maillard, that is the thing you want to do!

Now that I am thinking about it.... adding about 5% roasted grain would result in a really nice, rich and complex stout. Maybe that would be also an idea to follow.

After the baking, you would need obviously to throw it into the heated brewing water at about 70 C, and sparge/lauter/biab or whatever you are usually doing.

 

[beren]

nevermind already said

 

[beren]

Increased maillard reactions during the decoction process in general is a highly mystified and debatable topic. A lot of points suggest to put this into the "homebrewer´s myths" book. If you take a look into the interwebs, it is usually stated that maillard reactions take place mainly in a base environment. Wort in itself is acidic so the Ph is too low for enhanced Maillard reactions. I am not saying that Maillard is not happening at this Ph, but wort itself is certainly not Maillard-friendly. This holds also true for decoction environments (this is btw. also probably the reason, why tannins are not "boiled out" of the grains husks).

I agree with you, but crazy enough an acid enviroment can cause the same chemical changes over very long times, check out the wikipedia entry Maillard reaction - Wikipedia

 

[Pablo 54]

Very interesting thread. I know more now than I did at the beginning.

My $0.02 worth.

I've done both methods, pressure cooker and regular decoction. Also, nowadays, I generally only do this with 3 gallon batches for hefes and follow the Hochkurz Double Decoction from Braukaiser but tweaked for my process.

Things I do regardless of method:

1. Drain as much wort from the grains as possible.
2. Add about 1 quart or more of distilled water (pH 7) to the decoction pot or pressure cooker.
3. Slowly work your way to a boil. Pressure cooker does this automatically.
   1. Optional rest at 158f. I generally skip this since almost all the enzymes are still in the tun.
4. Boil ~20 minutes per decoction. Pressure cooker takes a bit longer.

Results:

1. Regular Decoction
   
   1. Late in the second decoction the grains and liquid darken.
   2. The flavor of the liquid, to me, reminds me of a light caramel.
   3. A triple decoction makes my grains look like oatmeal. Not a bad thing.
2. Pressure Cooker
   
   1. Grain and liquid don't seem to darken as much as a regular decoction.
   2. The flavor, to me, does not seem as intense.

 

[Bassman2003]

This is close to what I settled on. I use a 2nd brew bag that has 1/3rd of the grist. I lift it out with a slow lift as to keep as much liquid in the main mash. I have strike water already in the 2nd kettle ready to go. I do a 15 min beta rest before I pull the 2nd bag out so some enzymes can come out. I also do an alpha rest over in the 2nd kettle but I guess that can be optional. I will experiment over time. The boiled grains come back for the rest of the mash program (alpha & mashout).

The concept of 'decoction for flavor only' is a little different than historical use. I think taking the parts that add flavor like intense heat might want to be emphasized. The idea of a triple decoction vs a long single might be an angle. Why do three steps if all we want is a flavor contribution? Or, is the "extra" starch that is available after the decoction better in some way? Some levers that can be pulled remain for flavor + convenience.

 

[tracer bullet]

before and after 30min 15psi for reference

If you taste-test them I'd be curious to know the differences.

 

[ba-brewer]

If you taste-test them I'd be curious to know the differences.

Very seldom do I get jars that don't seal so I have not done any side by side tests.

I usually taste the starter beer as I decant before using the yeast but I am looking for obvious off flavors like sour and phenolic and not the maltiness of the beer.

I am getting low on starter and need to make more soon so I may give it a try next time.

 

[Beer234]

I am seriously thinking about pressure cooking the whole mash.... just to see what happens. I have a pressure cooker that holds 23 litres. I mean, for keptinis, the whole mash gets baked, so could not be that bad. I am just not so shure about the scorching at the bottom of the pot. The pot is not high grade.

Just thinking, could you then add hops to the pressure cooker decoction and skip the boil after the mash, dry hop for flavour/aroma. Reading up on keptinis, a separate hop tea is prepared? Maybe DMS would become a concern. Guessing the bain-marie method would be needed to avoid scorching.

 

[hottpeper13]

I use the separate decoctions for stepping up from 143* to 158*and then to 172*. After this discussion I might try a single infusion of 152* for 60 min then decocting (just boil) for 60 min and see if it enhances flavor. It might just open a can of worms with haze.

 

[Bassman2003]

All bets are off when we are just going for flavor. Do you intend to boil the entire mash?

 

[AlcheMania]

So i brewed the pilsner as planned.
Ended up using some carapils @ 6% and also some 34/70 i had on hand instead of a liquid pils yeast. My effeciency ended up being way higher than i anticipated so i had to settle for a shorter boil (50 min total isntead of planned 75) and still endeed up at a 1.059 OG. 5 points higher than i planned. Oops.
All in all the trial was a success, as the press boiled liquid had a noteably different color, aroma, and flavor. And thats with only about 20 minutes at full pressure boil. Next time ill do 30-35. The straight mash juice was light n sweet with little aroma. The press boiled shot had some caramel and oatmeally/cereally flavors. Mild but immediately perceptible. How much this small 1 gallon portion will affect the end product (im working with only a 5 quart pressure cooker) remains to be seen but for me this was a huge success. Perceptible differences. No off flavors. Oh and clean up was a breeze. Just soaked in hot water and soap for 20 and the crud came right off with a scrub.

16 hrs post pitch got ferm activity.
Spunding valve set to 5 psi.
Temp 60 F
Will update when i tap in bout 5-6 weeks.

Time to smoke ribs, drink beer and watch football!

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the update! So no side by side test then? Not really possible to get the difference then, is it?

 

[AlcheMania]

Thanks for the update! So no side by side test then? Not really possible to get the difference then, is it?

Other than a side by side of the pre and post press boil portions?, nope. I suppose i could counter pressure fill a bottle and keep it fridged till the next batch where ill bump the press boil time and see if i note a diff. But ill be a couple months before i get back to brewing this one. My plan was to just keep bumping times and amounts boiled and see if i like the end product. So long as it fits into my usual brew day its a win for me.
Brulosophy i aint.

 

[mashdar]

My guess too.
before and after 30min 15psi for reference
View attachment 839537

edit: briess golden light DME dissolved in 160ish hot water diluted to ~1.040

Do you do a "natural" pressure drop (cut heat, leave cooker sealed)? I have had issues with wort boiling over, but I suspect I was too impatient and caused it by venting the cooker.

 

[ba-brewer]

Do you do a "natural" pressure drop (cut heat, leave cooker sealed)? I have had issues with wort boiling over, but I suspect I was too impatient and caused it by venting the cooker.

Yes I allow the pressure to drop to zero naturally. If I am watching and remove as soon as I can after that happens the jar will continue to boil at times but I have never had an issue with seal getting compromised or having a boil over.

I give a decent amount of head space to try and keep the wort in the jar and not get it in the water in the canner to minimized clean up.

 

[AlcheMania]

So i brewed the pilsner as planned.
Ended up using some carapils @ 6% and also some 34/70 i had on hand instead of a liquid pils yeast. My effeciency ended up being way higher than i anticipated so i had to settle for a shorter boil (50 min total isntead of planned 75) and still endeed up at a 1.059 OG. 5 points higher than i planned. Oops.
All in all the trial was a success, as the press boiled liquid had a noteably different color, aroma, and flavor. And thats with only about 20 minutes at full pressure boil. Next time ill do 30-35. The straight mash juice was light n sweet with little aroma. The press boiled shot had some caramel and oatmeally/cereally flavors. Mild but immediately perceptible. How much this small 1 gallon portion will affect the end product (im working with only a 5 quart pressure cooker) remains to be seen but for me this was a huge success. Perceptible differences. No off flavors. Oh and clean up was a breeze. Just soaked in hot water and soap for 20 and the crud came right off with a scrub.

16 hrs post pitch got ferm activity.
Spunding valve set to 5 psi.
Temp 60 F
Will update when i tap in bout 5-6 weeks.

Time to smoke ribs, drink beer and watch football!

Update:
Well i said to hell with waiting for lagering, as i was down to one other beer, and tapped the Pilsner for the Super Bowl Party. Might be my fave pils yet and it flew off the handle. Guessing i got bout 1/3 a keg left (i hope) At the very least the process hurt nothing and was a minimal added effort on brew day. So Ill brew another batch this weekend, with a slightly longer pressure boil (30 vs 20 min) and a larger volume (1.5 gallons vs 1 gallon) and see how it goes. The pic below is only 3 days after primary to serving keg transfer and no finings. So still quite cloudy.

Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the update. Glad it turned out well.

 

[Agent]

Just adding my update to keep the creative juices flowing on this topic.

This weekend I did my version of the pressure cooker decoction for a Maibock. After a 30 minute mash at 148F, I took my BIAB full of grains and squeezed out most of the liquid before transferring to a stainless bowl nested in my 22qt pressure cooker. I let her rip at 15 PSI for 20 minutes, plus another 20 minutes of cooling. Then I stepped the mash up to 155F for another 30 minutes.

The process really accentuated the Munich malt flavors, and caused me to overshoot my OG by 10 points. I'll be curious how the final beer turns out.

Fun fact - the grains came out with a similar (low) moisture content as they went in at, but the boiler water was 8 brix of lovely deep golden wort.

 

[Bassman2003]

Very interesting. So I wonder what is happening during the 30 minute Alpha rest? The pressure cooker just blasted the enzymes to smithereens. Is there anything left at that point? I wonder if you could do the Beta and Alpha rests first, pressure cook and go straight to lautering hot?

Are the flavors/efficiency gains from the pressure cooking or running the Alpha rest after the pressure cooking?

 

[mashdar]

Very interesting. So I wonder what is happening during the 30 minute Alpha rest? The pressure cooker just blasted the enzymes to smithereens. Is there anything left at that point? I wonder if you could do the Beta and Alpha rests first, pressure cook and go straight to lautering hot?

Are the flavors/efficiency gains from the pressure cooking or running the Alpha rest after the pressure cooking?

Are grains or liquid going in the pressure cooker? If liquid, I agree, enzymes are already toast, might as well just boil.

 

[Miraculix]

Just adding my update to keep the creative juices flowing on this topic.

This weekend I did my version of the pressure cooker decoction for a Maibock. After a 30 minute mash at 148F, I took my BIAB full of grains and squeezed out most of the liquid before transferring to a stainless bowl nested in my 22qt pressure cooker. I let her rip at 15 PSI for 20 minutes, plus another 20 minutes of cooling. Then I stepped the mash up to 155F for another 30 minutes.

The process really accentuated the Munich malt flavors, and caused me to overshoot my OG by 10 points. I'll be curious how the final beer turns out.

Fun fact - the grains came out with a similar (low) moisture content as they went in at, but the boiler water was 8 brix of lovely deep golden wort.

That's a nice test! Thanks!

 

[Agent]

Are grains or liquid going in the pressure cooker? If liquid, I agree, enzymes are already toast, might as well just boil.

I pressure cooked the grains only with hardly any mash liquid, so most of my enzymes were safe and sound.

Are the flavors/efficiency gains from the pressure cooking or running the Alpha rest after the pressure cooking?

I'd have to assume from the pressure cooking. Otherwise my process has become pretty predictable being no sparge BIAB.

 

[Bassman2003]

Good points about the enzymes not being put in the pressure cooker. So boiling last might be more time efficient with regards to process and still achieve the same end result. You ended up with a 70 minute Beta rest & 30 minute Alpha rest which is what I realized when I did my recent decoctions. Fine but I was aware afterwards that it needed to be factored in.

 

[MicroMickey]

A friend of mine decided to brew a SMASH with only two row base malt. He simmered for 11 hrs. and finished the last hour with a full boil. He added brewing liquor as needed as the volume reduced. The pix above shows the effect of the Maillard reaction.

The traditional decoction mash has been done based on three different systems. The Bohemian, Vienna, and Bavarian systems are used to produce the types of beer usual in those regions. In Bohemia, where lighter colored beer was the style, a shorter decoction boiling time of 10 to 20 minutes was made; in Vienna the decoction boil lasted about 30 minutes; in Bavaria a decoction boil would last as long as 45 minutes. By variance of decoction boil times, a range of wort color can be made with a very simple grist bill.

There is only a portion of the mash which is decocted. There are normally plenty of enzymes available in the main mash to continue the mash conversion.

 

[AlcheMania]

View attachment 842765
A friend of mine decided to brew a SMASH with only two row base malt. He simmered for 11 hrs. and finished the last hour with a full boil. He added brewing liquor as needed as the volume reduced. The pix above shows the effect of the Maillard reaction.

The traditional decoction mash has been done based on three different systems. The Bohemian, Vienna, and Bavarian systems are used to produce the types of beer usual in those regions. In Bohemia, where lighter colored beer was the style, a shorter decoction boiling time of 10 to 20 minutes was made; in Vienna the decoction boil lasted about 30 minutes; in Bavaria a decoction boil would last as long as 45 minutes. By variance of decoction boil times, a range of wort color can be made with a very simple grist bill.

There is only a portion of the mash which is decocted. There are normally plenty of enzymes available in the main mash to continue the mash conversion.

Is that total boil time or boil time for each decoction?