Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Kent88]

What is the deal with 1 pedal driving? It's like a war on coasting. Do people actually like it? Why?

I've been trying out one pedal driving for about a month. It uses the Regen system to gently brake whenever you lift your foot off the accelerator. It's taking a bit to get used to. I'm especially puzzled with how to use it while using cruise control at higher speeds.

As for a "war on coasting", I wasn't comfortable with one pedal driving when I would park in my garage... for about a week. After that I forgot to turn it off when I pulled in my driveway a couple times and was surprised to realize that I'm getting used to it. I don't think I've turned it off for a couple weeks.

 

[Bilsch]

What is the deal with 1 pedal driving? It's like a war on coasting. Do people actually like it? Why?

Once you get used to it (10 minutes) it becomes natural and hard to drive any other way. With single pedal driving, you have full authority of the rate of acceleration and also the rate of deceleration. Unlike before you could only modulate acceleration and coasting was always at the same rate.

I liken it to comparing a geared lawn mower to a hydrostatic one. Both get the job done but one is so much more user friendly.

 

[Bilsch]

My neighbor rented a Tesla while his vehicle was getting fixed. Among many comments on it, he said the interior sucked. He's used to lux.

Are there options with the interior of the cabin? Of course, I assume a rental is going to be basic.

Nope. They are all pretty basic. The money you spend is going toward battery and technology. I mostly look at the UI and so don't really GAF.

 

[Kent88]

Once you get used to it (10 minutes) it becomes natural and hard to drive any other way.

Bilsch has apparently taken to it much faster than I am.

 

[Bilsch]

Bilsch has apparently taken to it much faster than I am.

Maybe we aren't comparing the same thing? I only have experience with the Tesla version.

 

[mashdar]

Maybe we aren't comparing the same thing? I only have experience with the Tesla version.

I have a couple of toyotas that do very slight auto regen and it annoys the dickens out of me. There are tons of times I want to coast, and I have to get the pedal just right to do it without eating a battery penalty.

IMO the car regenerating is braking, not coasting. Gentle brakes are still brakes. Maybe it matters how anal you are about milage. I'm very used to gradual slowing to time lights etc. Rolling down a short hill, though, I just want to grab whatever kinetic energy I can and throw it into the following uphill.

 

[Airborneguy]

What is the deal with 1 pedal driving? It's like a war on coasting. Do people actually like it? Why?

It’s the best once you get used to it. I describe it like driving manual. You’re much more in control because unlike automatics, the car responds immediately when your foot moves, similarly to manuals.

One downside? Damp weather. You use the brakes so little that you have to force yourself to work them during damp stretches to get the rust off. Some EVs use the brakes during regeneration. Teslas don’t so they rust up quickly on rainy days.

I know this will sound funny to someone who hasn’t done it, but it’s tougher than you think to break muscle memory for something like this. The other day I drove around for almost an hour before I had the opportunity to use my brakes.

 

[Airborneguy]

Bilsch has apparently taken to it much faster than I am.

It took me maybe a week. The first few days to get used to the mechanics of it so to speak then a few more days for my shin to stop aching. Now, there’s no going back. I’m all thrown off when I drive a gas car.

 

[mashdar]

You use the brakes so little that you have to force yourself to work them during damp stretches to get the rust off.

I have no issue with regenerative breaking. It's the interface that bothers me. If I want 0 thrust, I have to get the pedal in the perfect 1mm to get the car to quit doing stuff.

On flat ground (FL), I frequently take my foot off the pedal 1/4-1/2 a mile from a light to get a feel for traffic and timing. Any regen at this time is wasted energy from conversion/battery/motor losses.

On rolling hills (NY), I frequently want to coast down and use whatever kinetic energy I can for the next hill. Same issue with losses if I'm charging and discharging instead. (edit: admittedly this one is complicated by change in speed vs friction losses. Situation dependent.)

But I admit that I'm a nut

edit: do these 1 pedal systems do max regen without pressing brake pedal, and brake pedal is just for disk brakes? The toyotas seamlessly shift from one to the other depending on how hard you brake.

 

[Kent88]

And I thought that I overanalyze things

 

[Airborneguy]

I know Tesla’s system does not use the brakes. It reverses the motors.

The car stops pretty quickly once you touch the brakes, especially if you were already in regen off the accelerator.

 

[sibelman]

regen at this time is wasted energy

Hmmm. I get the idea of it. But, notwithstanding that regen is not 100% efficient, it captures substantial energy in the battery for later use. This is the essential genius of the Prius, and it also makes sense in BEVs. But I do get that previous methods of efficient driving don't apply to one-pedal driving, and that regen doesn't "feel right," especially at first.

Various BEVs have methods of crudely tuning the amount/aggressiveness of regen, but AFAIK the only way to truly coast is to shift into neutral.

In the Bolt, I have the sense that regen and friction brakes can both be engaged by the brake pedal. But maybe the regen is happening according to its own logic, irrespective of the brake pedal.

 

[Airborneguy]

I’ve seen my percentage go up twice. Once in traffic, the other coming down an upstate NY mountain pass.

But more usual is to experience much higher than normal efficiency in traffic.

 

[mashdar]

regen is not 100% efficient

Round trip it's generally ~60% efficient (ke-pe, power circuits, battery, power circuits, pe-ke), which is much better than friction brakes (0% efficient), but much worse than keeping KE if you can manage it.

E.g. rolling through a light at 20mph is a big savings vs stopping with 100% regen and then acceleating. (It's usually faster, too, but you have to watch out for people running lights.)

But this obviously isn't the typical driving habit, and I suspect the tendancy towards auto-regen is to get the goofs that speed to the red light and then smash the brakes to get a bit of regen and up the mileage numbers. (It's possible it's even tuned to a specific EPA test...)

 

[Broothru]

Bilsch has apparently taken to it much faster than I am.

In flying, whether it’s a fighter jet or a commercial airliner, three dimensional energy management becomes an inherent skill. Maybe it boils down to an acquired second nature reflex, but I rather enjoy playing the ‘mega miler’ game when driving our Prius (when SWMBO’d lets me).

Of course I don’t play the fanatic’s game of topping a hill at 45 mph and coast downhill at 75. I won’t be that jerk who tries to virtue signal all the coal rollers, though I might if they weren’t so heavily armed.

I discovered the sweet spot in REGEN where partially riding the (regen) ‘brakes’ results in maximum electrical recovery, and use that ‘socially acceptable’ method of driving when I’m not interfering with traffic flow, and cops aren’t in the vicinity. I’ve found that it helps me keep focus and situational awareness on routine or otherwise boring drives.

 

[mashdar]

I rather enjoy playing the ‘mega miler’ game when driving our Prius (when SWMBO’d lets me).

At least for gens 2,3,4, accelerating with gas to 40 and then coasting to 30, then accelerating to 40 again gets you 80+mpg! One of the goals is to never use the battery, but to let the ICE shut off. (Hyper milers did/do this by turning off the car, but the Prius way seems much safer.)

But constantly going 40-30-40-30 is probably about the rudest thing you can do with other cars around.

I drive very differently when I'm the only car on the road

I discovered the sweet spot in REGEN where partially riding the (regen) ‘brakes’ results in maximum electrical recovery,

If the new systems completely control MG with the accelerator pedal, and brake pedal only controls caveman brakes, I see a design arguement for that. Much easier to max regen. Personally I still want a positive thrust and negative thrust pedal, but I can see the logic for MG pedal and friction pedal.

 

[sibelman]

better than friction brakes (0% efficient), but much worse than keeping KE

Yes, ideally one could do both as appropriate to the moment (pun not intended). This requires some kind of mode switch, but shifting to neutral feels awkward.

The paddle that enhances regen on my Bolt is a partial solution. If I select 'gear' "D" instead of "L", regen is minimal or, perhaps, zero (owner's manual is ambiguous) until the regen paddle is pressed, allowing coasting while still allowing manually activated regen. For coasting-for-efficiency enthusiasts like @mashdar, this could be the best of both worlds.

 

[mashdar]

Yes, ideally one could do both as appropriate to the moment (pun not intended). This requires some kind of mode switch, but shifting to neutral feels awkward.

The paddle that enhances regen on my Bolt is a partial solution. If I select 'gear' "D" instead of "L", regen is minimal or, perhaps, zero (owner's manual is ambiguous) until the regen paddle is pressed, allowing coasting le still allowing manually activated regen. For coasting-for-efficiency enthusiasts like @mashdar, this could be the best of both worlds.

That would work for me - I love myself some extra buttons. It's vaguely similar to engine breaking in a manual.

I don't like the idea of shifting to neutral, because there can be all kinds of issues with reengaging. In toyota hybrids, it can also cause issues when the ICE fails to protect MG1 (ICE and MG2 can disconnect from drive shaft under ~45mph, but at higherspeeds ICE provides some sort of inertial protection to MG1 and must be engaged. Not sure re specifics, but there was some talk about being in neutral going down a hill being bad.)

edit: do most EVs have a real neutral where MGs disconnect from wheels? aFAIK MG1 in toyota hybrids is always connected.
edit2: maybe high impedance keeps moment of inertia low? for free-ish rolling?

 

[mac_1103]

This is the essential genius of the Prius

The original brake pads on my Gen2 Prius lasted 180,000 miles.

 

[Bilsch]

Round trip it's generally ~60% efficient (ke-pe, power circuits, battery, power circuits, pe-ke), which is much better than friction brakes (0% efficient), but much worse than keeping KE if you can manage it.

Efficiently managing your KE is quite easy with the single pedal system, at least in a Tesla. Neutral or coasting (no power into or out of the drive motors) is roughly mid accelerator pedal. With a little bit of practice you can feel this spot from inertia and experience but also can be confirmed with a glance of the prominent power meter in the gauge cluster.

Practically speaking, in any vehicle, how often does one exactly time the switch to coast mode such that you will stop at the intended spot? In reality some massaging of the velocity is usually required with a couple taps of the breaks or the gas to stay on glide path and hit the point where you aimed.

This also applies to electric vehicles and single pedal driving except, unlike ICE, you have the ability to recoup some of the inertial energy and it's all controlled with one foot. The big difference is you have full authority of ∆V with slight modulation of the accelerator foot pressure, thereby either adding or extracting a few kilowatts of energy into or out of the system to perfectly control the vehicles ∆V over ∆T.

Same joy of hypermiling with less pedal dancing, greater control and better efficiency. Plus it's rather fun to drive.

 

[doug293cz]

Well, traded my wife's ICE Tuscon for a 2024 Ionic 5 EV.

Brew on

 

[Kent88]

One of these?



Cool.

 

[doug293cz]

One of these?



Cool.

Yup, but blue.

Brew on

 

[sibelman]

@doug293cz, congrats to your wife on her new Ioniq 5. May it serve y'all well.

 

[Bilsch]

Well, traded my wife's ICE Tuscon for a 2024 Ionic 5 EV.

Brew on

Cool car!
Plus bi directional charging.
Nice.

 

[mashdar]

Cool car!
Plus bi directional charging.
Nice.

Looks like 3.6kW (15A @240V). How do people wire these? For existing construction, maybe it works out if the panel is already in the garage, and you put in a little sub panel?

edit: PS I saw one of those yesterday and thought it looked pretty neat.

 

[Broothru]

Looks like 3.6kW (15A @240V). How do people wire these? For existing construction, maybe it works out if the panel is already in the garage, and you put in a little sub panel?

edit: PS I saw one of those yesterday and thought it looked pretty neat.

Sub panel for sure. I priced one out recently with a trusted local electrician for a 40’ run from the main breaker box (with a sub panel) for a 30A/240V outlet that would serve dual purpose for a charger and our RV when it’s not in storage.

It was about $2,000 before getting a Level 2 charger. And that was without a transfer setup for ‘2-way’ charging for the house through the new wiring. I could save some $$$ if I did the rough-in work myself and pulled the Romex, leaving him to install and connect the cabling and sub panels. That heavy duty wiring ain’t cheap. But at this stage in my life, it’s worth it to pay someone else.

 

[mashdar]

Sub panel for sure. I priced one out recently with a trusted local electrician for a 40’ run from the main breaker box (with a sub panel) for a 30A/240V outlet that would serve dual purpose for a charger and our RV when it’s not in storage.

It was about $2,000 before getting a Level 2 charger. And that was without a transfer setup for ‘2-way’ charging for the house through the new wiring. I could save some $$$ if I did the rough-in work myself and pulled the Romex, leaving him to install and connect the cabling and sub panels. That heavy duty wiring ain’t cheap. But at this stage in my life, it’s worth it to pay someone else.

Is there just a male plug? I assumed the bidi chargers must be hard wired or with the equivalent of a portable generator setup (with a receptacle on the unit for connection to inlet).

edit: I'm assuming you weren't looking at a suicide cord

 

[doug293cz]

Plus bi directional charging

Looks like 3.6kW (15A @240V). How do people wire these? For existing construction, maybe it works out if the panel is already in the garage, and you put in a little sub panel?

Haven't looked at this feature of the Ionic 5 yet. I saw it in the brochure, but it was not a factor in the choice. My wife wanted an SUV because it sits higher than a sedan, and she has difficulty getting in and out of lower vehicles. The powered lift gate was the deciding factor between the SE and SEL trim levels. Range is somewhat lower than the Ionic 6 sedan (they have the same chassis and drive chain) but the SUV has a higher coefficient of drag. Still the range is 250+ miles, and the furthest we usually go from the house is a 125 mi round trip.

Availability (one of the "cons" in the video above) was quite good. Dealer had 6 or more Ionic 5's on the lot. Car isn't US built, but Hyundai was offering $7500 off to make up for not getting the tax credit.

So, now the family vehicles are:

• Hyundai Ionic 5 - full EV
• Hyundai Sonata - hybrid (gets twice the MPG [45 - 50] as my previous 2.0L turbo Sonata)
• Honda Clarity - PHEV (daughter's)
• Toyota Tacoma - ICE, only gets used a couple times a month

My lease on the Sonata hybrid is up in April, so I originally was looking at replacing it with an EV, but my wife drives many more miles than I do, so it seemed to make more sense for me to buy out the residual on my Sonata, and replace my wife's gas hog Tuscon ICE. Wife is thrilled about the car, but mind boggled by all the technology in it.

Brew on

 

[whoaru99]

Looks like 3.6kW (15A @240V). How do people wire these? For existing construction, maybe it works out if the panel is already in the garage, and you put in a little sub panel?

edit: PS I saw one of those yesterday and thought it looked pretty neat.

Depends what your garage has already. If it already has a sub panel and/or a 240V circuit of suitable ampacity of you might be able to use that. If not, then yeah, either a new circuit for charger or sub panel+charger circuit.