Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[madscientist451]

Mostly what Kent said, but to add a few points:

1. Where did you come up with the $2277 fuel cost? Am I missing something? You made a good comparison to mine but then added that number.

The $2277 was the difference in cost of running the Honda vs Charging the Tesla at home for 31,706 miles as Airborneguy indicated.
As I was driving home on my 5 hr road trip (in the Saab, not the Honda) and noticed all the Teslas around,
I was thinking about how nice it would be to have no more oil changes, not worry about timing chains, oil leaks, ignition issues, cooling and exhaust systems and all the stuff that occurs to keep a gasoline engine running.
When I retire in a few years, I can pretty much afford any car I want (within reason) but I won't be doing the daily commute and my driving will be mostly longer trips to Vermont, Maine and out West for skiing.
If I get a new or almost new Toyota Highlander, I know I can drive 8-9 hours straight through, and then the next day go wherever I want. The operating and maintenance cost will be higher compared to an electric vehicle, but the freedom to do as I please will be worth it for me.
So I could get an EV for shorter trips or around town, but the return on investment just doesn't work out unless you drive a lot of miles. As my collection of older cars gets even older and as my ability to take care of them diminishes because of my age, I can see myself eventually getting rid of all the old stuff (maybe keep the convertible) and getting a new EV that I don't have to do much of anything to keep it going.

 

[tracer bullet]

I know I can drive 8-9 hours straight through, and then the next day go wherever I want.

I was listening in on a conversation last night about this, a friend with a Model 3 and another considering one. The friend with the Model 3 takes a lot of road trips in it, and doesn't at all mind the charging. In his opinion it was Tesla specific, their superchargers being so fast and widely available. Basically every 3 hours or so he stops and charges, stretches his legs, has a snack, goes pee, things that you might do on a road trip at a gas station or rest stop. His opinion was essentially that his road trip travel habits basically haven't changed one bit.

 

[Airborneguy]

I was listening in on a conversation last night about this, a friend with a Model 3 and another considering one. The friend with the Model 3 takes a lot of road trips in it, and doesn't at all mind the charging. In his opinion it was Tesla specific, their superchargers being so fast and widely available. Basically every 3 hours or so he stops and charges, stretches his legs, has a snack, goes pee, things that you might do on a road trip at a gas station or rest stop. His opinion was essentially that his road trip travel habits basically haven't changed one bit.

I agree with this. If anything, it helps with “driving straight through” because the stops are perfect nap length.

I’ve driven to Florida twice in my Model 3, 1100 miles one way. Straight through overnight both times.

I’m a fairly frequent roadtripper. My Model 3 is the preferred choice now unless we’re taking the jetski.

 

[madscientist451]

Basically every 3 hours or so he stops and charges, stretches his legs, has a snack, goes pee, things that you might do on a road trip at a gas station or rest stop.

If you stop every 3 hours, how long do you have to charge to get back to full?
A quick Google search shows that a supercharger can get you 200 more miles of range in about 15 minutes, and cost about $18-$20, just wondering if that's accurate.

I agree with this. If anything, it helps with “driving straight through” because the stops are perfect nap length.

I’ve driven to Florida twice in my Model 3, 1100 miles one way. Straight through overnight both times.

I’m a fairly frequent roadtripper. My Model 3 is the preferred choice now unless we’re taking the jetski.

So including charging, how long does it take to travel 1100 miles?
Also, I thought the Tesla 3 could tow fairly lightweight items like a jetski without any issues?

 

[Airborneguy]

Shortest was 19 hours. Longest 21.

It does tow the jetski easily, but it affects the range too much for me to tow with it on a road trip.

 

[passedpawn]

Shortest was 19 hours. Longest 21.

It does tow the jetski easily, but it affects the range too much for me to tow with it on a road trip.

What does your jet ski weigh?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

What does your jet ski weigh?

Probably affects aerodynamics a lot more than any concern about weight.

 

[tracer bullet]

A quick Google search shows that a supercharger can get you 200 more miles of range in about 15 minutes

He said it was a bit over 10 miles a minute at a Supercharger, so that sounds about right.

Does need to be a Supercharger. And he does take a look at where they are located in advance.

 

[Airborneguy]

What does your jet ski weigh?

The ski is just under 900lbs and the trailer about 300.

 

[Airborneguy]

Probably affects aerodynamics a lot more than any concern about weight.

I've always wondered if this is the case.

 

[passedpawn]

The ski is just under 900lbs and the trailer about 300.

Ah, I did not know they were that heavy.

 

[Airborneguy]

Ah, I did not know they were that heavy.

They generally run lighter, but mine is a 3 seater with a supercharged car engine.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I've always wondered if this is the case.

Yeah, and I'm just guessing. I'm an electrical engineer, not mechanical lol.

But I'm guessing that for primarily road trip / highway miles without a lot of stop/start, the weight and rolling friction isn't as significant. And despite a jet ski "looking" aerodynamic, the Cd of that trailer as atrocious compared to a very slippery Tesla.

 

[Airborneguy]

I’d originally typed out something similar to that last part but deleted it since aerodynamics are certainly not in my wheelhouse.

Basically, “the front is high and sloped, and I tow with the cover off but the trailer is probably bad because of the air flowing in and out after coming from under the car.”

 

[Broothru]

I’d originally typed out something similar to that last part but deleted it since aerodynamics are certainly not in my wheelhouse.

Basically, “the front is high and sloped, and I tow with the cover off but the trailer is probably bad because of the air flowing in and out after coming from under the car.”

Aerodynamics can be deceiving (said the Aero Engineer wannabe who changed majors). I once saw an analysis of the best way to orient a rowboat on top of a station wagon (remember what those things were?).

Intuitively you’d think it would be “inverted, with bow facing front of the vehicle.” Only partially correct. Inverted, yes, but total drag was actually less with the flat transom facing forward. Planform drag was obviously greater but interference drag was less due to smoother airflow past the backward facing bow. The wind tunnel film showed a lot of compression wave buildup with the stern facing forward, but not as much as you’d think. With the stern facing aft there was significant turbulent airflow spilling over the back of the inverted transom, especially as velocity increased, as opposed to the smooth slipstreaming when the ‘pointy end’ faced aft.

Dt was less, since it is the sum of all “drags” included, not just planform drag. Kinda’ like area rule for supersonic flight, which seems like skin friction drag would make the coke bottle shape of the fuselage less efficient.

Weird science, not what I’d have suspected.

 

[madscientist451]

So originally, I rejected the EV idea, too expensive, too complicated, many unknowns, doesn't fit my driving needs, blah blah blah.....
But the more I'm thinking about it, the more I think maybe it could work for me.
I've bought lots of used cars over the years, but I just don't think a used EV is the right move for me right now.
Spending $40-$50k on a Tesla just seems too big of a jump for me, so I'm looking at the Hyundai Kona.
They've been selling them since 2019, so I guess the bugs have been worked out?
The range works for me.
The price is lower than the Tesla. Not sure if any of the tax incentives apply.
So why or why not would this car be a good choice?
Note this would not be my only vehicle, but would be my main commuter car for now.

 

[tracer bullet]

The price is lower than the Tesla. Not sure if any of the tax incentives apply.

They don't, unfortunately. That can change year to year though. The gist is that the EV's have to be made in the US. The Bolt might be a consideration before they are all gone if the Tesla isn't doing it for you. Though, the Kona isn't exactly expensive and so the cost without credit might still be alright.

Look about half way down the page for the current cars: Here's every electric vehicle that currently qualifies for the US federal tax credit

 

[madscientist451]

I'll keep driving my gasoline cars before I buy a Big 3 EV. The big 3 have a miserable track record for reliability, quality and value and I don't see that changing anytime soon. However, GM is supposedly working with Honda on EVs and that might be something to keep an eye on.
Reportedly, Toyota will come out with some EVs by 2025. (many Toyotas sold in the US are also made in the USA) I think I'll just wait.

 

[Broothru]

File this under the category of "Too Good to Be True", but I'd sure like it to be. Sort of like "Free Beer," only better. The source for this came from a CBS "60 Minutes" segment broadcast last night. The statistics are what I can remember from the program and may be not entirely accurate, but if not it's because of my fading memory rather than fan-boi exaggeration.

The biggest hindrance to EVs and by extension the Green Revolution is that in some ways it isn't all that 'green'. The extraction and production of lithium, the most fundamental and sought after component for storage of ecologically clean and renewable energy, is both expensive and detrimental to the environment. It can make the strip mining of coal look good by comparison. Locations around the world where lithium is currently produced are largely unstable or unfriendly places, like China, equatorial Africa and South American jungles.

Enter the area near the California wasteland surrounding the Salton Sea, which some are now starting to call "Lithium Valley." The area has long been known for its geologically active thermal vents and upwelling of mineral rich deep hot water brine aquifers that provide an abundant source of steam for cheap and effective electrical generation. The brine is especially rich in lithium. Lots and lots of lithium.

Several small entrepreneurial companies have built and are scaling up new facilities to extract the lithium from these brines in a nearly pollution-free process. Firstly, the brine is practically 'self-extracting'. Thermal convection vents the brine from deep underground. The steam is used to power generators for the plant at a net positive (the unused 'waste electricity' then can be sold to the grid). This heat extraction cools the brine, which then passes through special membrane filtration which extracts the lithium. The 'waste water' brine is then returned to the aquifer via deep subterranean well piping in a pollution-free closed loop system. The lithium is extracted at a net-positive energy cost while the 'waste water' is returned to the deep Earth aquifer from which it came. It is estimated that this single site source is capable of producing more than half of the projected future world demand for lithium! If so, we may be witnessing the beginning of a revolution that could make the U.S. the 'Saudi Arabia of clean energy'.

Major U.S. automobile manufacturers estimate the demand for EVs world-wide will exceed 500,000 vehicles per year by 2025, half of which will be the U.S. market, which coincides with when these extraction plants should be coming online. Today the test facilities near the Salton Sea are producing highly pure lithium powder at a cost that is about one-fourth that of current world market prices, without the Third World political issues and instabilities which always end up having us exploiting the populations (as well as their countries) while enriching and enabling their tin-pot dictators. Auto makers are already buying up the future projections of these startup companies. Prices should fall as production ramps up. Proven reserves in these brines is projected to meet the increasing expected world demand for lithium for the next "three generations."

Is this truth, hyperbole or simply sensationalism? Don't know. But even if this story is only half-true fake-news, it is certainly 100% captivating and welcome good news for the future.

 

[NeoBrew]

File this under the category of "Too Good to Be True", but I'd sure like it to be. Sort of like "Free Beer," only better. The source for this came from a CBS "60 Minutes" segment broadcast last night. The statistics are what I can remember from the program and may be not entirely accurate, but if not it's because of my fading memory rather than fan-boi exaggeration.

The biggest hindrance to EVs and by extension the Green Revolution is that in some ways it isn't all that 'green'. The extraction and production of lithium, the most fundamental and sought after component for storage of ecologically clean and renewable energy, is both expensive and detrimental to the environment. It can make the strip mining of coal look good by comparison. Locations around the world where lithium is currently produced are largely unstable or unfriendly places, like China, equatorial Africa and South American jungles.

Enter the area near the California wasteland surrounding the Salton Sea, which some are now starting to call "Lithium Valley." The area has long been known for its geologically active thermal vents and upwelling of mineral rich deep hot water brine aquifers that provide an abundant source of steam for cheap and effective electrical generation. The brine is especially rich in lithium. Lots and lots of lithium.

Several small entrepreneurial companies have built and are scaling up new facilities to extract the lithium from these brines in a nearly pollution-free process. Firstly, the brine is practically 'self-extracting'. Thermal convection vents the brine from deep underground. The steam is used to power generators for the plant at a net positive (the unused 'waste electricity' then can be sold to the grid). This heat extraction cools the brine, which then passes through special membrane filtration which extracts the lithium. The 'waste water' brine is then returned to the aquifer via deep subterranean well piping in a pollution-free closed loop system. The lithium is extracted at a net-positive energy cost while the 'waste water' is returned to the deep Earth aquifer from which it came. It is estimated that this single site source is capable of producing more than half of the projected future world demand for lithium! If so, we may be witnessing the beginning of a revolution that could make the U.S. the 'Saudi Arabia of clean energy'.

Major U.S. automobile manufacturers estimate the demand for EVs world-wide will exceed 500,000 vehicles per year by 2025, half of which will be the U.S. market, which coincides with when these extraction plants should be coming online. Today the test facilities near the Salton Sea are producing highly pure lithium powder at a cost that is about one-fourth that of current world market prices, without the Third World political issues and instabilities which always end up having us exploiting the populations (as well as their countries) while enriching and enabling their tin-pot dictators. Auto makers are already buying up the future projections of these startup companies. Prices should fall as production ramps up. Proven reserves in these brines is projected to meet the increasing expected world demand for lithium for the next "three generations."

Is this truth, hyperbole or simply sensationalism? Don't know. But even if this story is only half-true fake-news, it is certainly 100% captivating and welcome good news for the future.

If this is true and accurate, that would be great!

If this were 50% true, that would still be good.

Knowing what I know about startup companies and technology, it has a far less than 50% chance of being true. And that doesn't mean 1/2 true, it means it is likely not true at all! There is an endless string of "entrepreneurs" who over hype ideas. I'll count these eggs when the chickens hatch!

 

[lurker18]

Not for where I live. -40 winters turn the range into under 50% at best, and I do a lot of long distance driving. Horror stories about people having them here and doing the full butt clench trying to get home at night with the low battery warning and the speed restriction on. Boss lady had a brand new 2022 Audi SUV full electric for 3 weeks last winter, 2 weeks spent in the shop because they thought there was something wrong with it not doing 50 miles on a full charge. It was returned on week 3. Along with the limited charge stations, and the time to fully charge, I can see a normal 2 hour trip in a gas vehicle turning into a several hour trip waiting in line to charge in a full electric.

 

[Airborneguy]

A two hour trip in a modern ev will mostly likely not need any charging at all.

 

[Kent88]

Not for where I live. -40 winters turn the range into under 50% at best, and I do a lot of long distance driving.

Looks like you claim Winnipeg. Using weatherunderground to check out your weather this past winter.

Didn't get below 0°F until the very end of November. I'd say two cold snaps in December, but that doesn't amount to a third of the month with lows below -10°F. Looks like the last week of January you had another cold snap with more -10°F and below lows. That cold snap stuck around for a few days into February, and it looks like you ended that month with a total of 9 days with lows below -10°F. Your lows in March only dipped below -10°F a couple times, despite yo-yoing temps. I didn't notice any lows below -30°F for you, so maybe you're referring to wind chill?

We had a really nasty cold snap around Christmas. I would've loved to have chatted with a Bolt driver to hear what their range did. In March I did ask one driver about the winter and it's affect on his range in general. I forget his exact response, but I remember being pleasantly surprised at how well it performed. A lot depends on road conditions and the driver whether you drive ICE or BEV. My jeep consistently gets 4mpg better in the summer when I drive it.

I hope your charging infrastructure improves.

 

[TwistedGray]

Picked up another ...I think my 4th or 5th this year

 

[passedpawn]

Picked up another ...I think my 4th or 5th this year

speeding ticket? srsly, don't know what that means

 

[TwistedGray]

speeding ticket? srsly, don't know what that means

Rocket (Tesla)

I flip P100D's

 

[Airborneguy]

Rocket (Tesla)

I flip P100D's

I wish. I regret not going for the 2016-2017 S instead of my 3. I love it, but I want an S badly.

 

[passedpawn]

Rocket (Tesla)

I flip P100D's

Why?

 

[day_trippr]

Wears out the battery packs I bet

 

[TwistedGray]

I wish. I regret not going for the 2016-2017 S instead of my 3. I love it, but I want an S badly.

I swapped my S at the time with a 3 while someone and I were on a drive, and I wasn't really happy with the 3.

Why?

I like hunting for cars/deals.

Wears out the battery packs I bet

Lol, well that too of course