Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[betarhoalphadelta]

I won't disagree with that directly but I will say this: A $17,000 Kia Rio weighs 2700 lbs and has a 120 hp engine. A $27,000 Chevy Bolt weighs 3600 lbs and has a 200 hp electric motor. Maybe the price difference could be a little less if the size and power differences were a little smaller. And maybe 250 miles of range wouldn't need such a big battery if you were building a smaller, less powerful car.

Batteries are heavy. That's the reason for the weight, and the weight is why it needs more horsepower. It's not like a Bolt is trying to turn a <5s 0-60 time like a Tesla.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/americas-new-weight-problem-electric-cars/

 

[mac_1103]

It's not like a Bolt is trying to turn a <5s 0-60 time like a Tesla.

But 6.3 seconds isn't exactly crawling. Almost a second faster than the afore-mentioned Kia Rio. And about 5 seconds faster than my Prius C.

I'm not an engineer. I have no idea how much smaller the battery and motor could be if consumers would accept something like 7.5 seconds to go from 0-60 while maintaining a 200+ mile range. But I do suspect that there probably are ways to slim down entry level EVs. The manufacturers obviously don't think those would sell, and they may very well be right.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

When I googled quickly I got 8.2s for the Kia, and 7.15s for the Bolt.

I am an engineer, and knowing how we think, they're not trying to make the Bolt big and heavy for its own sake. That said, I'm sure they have range and performance guidelines from marketing to make a viable product.

Here's what you get for 2700 lbs though.

https://www.myevreview.com/tech-specs/volkswagen/e-up/61-kw
161 mile range and 11.9s 0-100kph (0-62mph).

I'm guessing GM brass didn't think that would be a compelling car for the North American market lol...

 

[mac_1103]

VW brass didn't seem to think so either. There's also a whole lot of ICE car models sold in Europe that you'll never see on this side of the Atlantic. I don't think they made the Bolt big and heavy for the sake of big and heavy either. I think they made it big and heavy for the sake of being fast enough so US drivers wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

 

[tracer bullet]

https://caterhamcars.com/us/models/projectv
This is my kind of EV. I've driven on the right side of a car a few times in Ireland, but wonder if they'll have a left hand drive version someday.

Oh, and it'll be $100,000, maybe more. I wonder how much I could lie to my wife about the price...

 

[day_trippr]

Historically Caterham has offered LHD as an option, but I would assume that option is actualized with significant delay vs addressing their home market...

Cheers!

 

[sibelman]

I think they made it big and heavy for the sake of being fast enough so US drivers wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

I drive a Bolt. I think the battery size (i. e. range) drives the weight much more than the motor HP. A less powerful motor would save some weight, but that giant battery is really heavy.

I agree that tuning range (and, perhaps, power) back would make for a lighter and less expensive car. Gotta say, though, it's sweet to drive to vacation spots without having to rent an ICE car. We couldn't do that with our 2012 Leaf.

You could be right about power and marketing (and many Americans). Both Bolt and Leaf accelerate more than adequately (unless you're a true lead-foot with an unhealthy need for speed ). These aren't for racing. Starting from low or zero speed, the skinny low-rolling-resistance tires can be the limiting factor - they sometimes break loose when I feel a sudden need to goose it.

 

[mac_1103]

A less powerful motor would save some weight, but that giant battery is really heavy.

My point was that a less powerful motor might allow them to save some battery weight.

 

[Kent88]

 

[day_trippr]

I might have missed it but I don't recall seeing this study linked here...
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/cars-gas-powered-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-late-2022/
Don't know really what to make of it save for the cost of "fuel" wasn't all that different between EV and ICE in 2022...

Cheers!

 

[Kent88]

I might have missed it but I don't recall seeing this study linked here...
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/cars-gas-powered-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-late-2022/
Don't know really what to make of it save for the cost of "fuel" wasn't all that different between EV and ICE in 2022...

Cheers!

A quick Google suggests that they're a group that likes to put out EV hit pieces. I haven't read what they've put out there yet, but I am skeptical.

 

[hout17]

There's a Wal-Mart not far from my house. They have what looks like an 8 bay electric charging station in the parking lot. I thought it was cool then I realized they were powered by diesel engines. Kind of interesting in a weird way lol.

I think I'll see what the world brings in the next 3-5 years by then I may feel comfy enough to switch a vehicle over to electric. It sounds like the battery market innovation is really taking off.

 

[Kent88]

There's a Wal-Mart not far from my house. They have what looks like an 8 bay electric charging station in the parking lot. I thought it was cool then I realized they were powered by diesel engines.

Huh? That sounds strange. Is there a nearby generator that kicks on every time someone plugs an EV into that charging station?

 

[day_trippr]

This is also interesting in a weird way

[I'm sure that's totally a Photoshop confection ]

 

[hout17]

Huh? That sounds strange. Is there a nearby generator that kicks on every time someone plugs an EV into that charging station?

Yeah, you can hear it. The stations are out in the middle of the parking lot and the generators are enclosed with 8' fencing right next to them.

 

[Kent88]

That's strange. Electrify America stations, I assume?

One of my frequented grocery stores has free level two charging with small wind turbines and maybe a small solar panel right next to them. I assume the bulk of the electrons I get are from the grid, though.

 

[Kent88]

This is also interesting in a weird way

View attachment 826628

[I'm sure that's totally a Photoshop confection ]

I think most (if not all) EVs are designed so one can't drive away while plugged in. I have wondered for a while why they don't put a charging port in the trunk/frunk, in case someone wants to expand range with some extra battery, but it's probably to keep people from putting small gas engines in there.

 

[sibelman]

I might have missed it but I don't recall seeing this study linked here...
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/cars-gas-powered-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-late-2022/
Don't know really what to make of it save for the cost of "fuel" wasn't all that different between EV and ICE in 2022...

Cheers!

This doesn't align with my experience. Not even close. Unless the following calculations have serious errors.

With all taxes, surcharges, and fees, I'm paying $0.175 per kWh (I had thought it was much lower). My Chevy Bolt gets about 5 miles per kWh -- more in summer and on city streets, less in winter and on highways. That's about $0.035 per mile. Of course, other areas will have more expensive electricity. But read on.

At $4 per gallon (prices have been running well above that here), a gasoline-powered car would need to get 115 mpg to equal the "fuel" cost of my electric car. At 45 mpg (e.g., with a Prius), gas would have to drop to $1.57 per gallon to equal the cost of driving my Bolt EV. Realistically, a 45 mpg Prius and $4/gal. gas means about $0.89 per mile in fuel cost - 2½ times my Bolt EV.

There are reasons to stick with an ICE vehicle. Fuel cost is not one of them as far as I can tell.

YMMV, truly!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

This doesn't align with my experience. Not even close. Unless the following calculations have serious errors.

With all taxes, surcharges, and fees, I'm paying $0.175 per kWh (I had thought it was much lower). My Chevy Bolt gets about 5 miles per kWh -- more in summer and on city streets, less in winter and on highways. That's about $0.035 per mile. Of course, other areas will have more expensive electricity. But read on.

At $4 per gallon (prices have been running well above that here), a gasoline-powered car would need to get 115 mpg to equal the "fuel" cost of my electric car. At 45 mpg (e.g., with a Prius), gas would have to drop to $1.57 per gallon to equal the cost of driving my Bolt EV. Realistically, a 45 mpg Prius and $4/gal. gas means about $0.89 per mile in fuel cost - 2½ times my Bolt EV.

There are reasons to stick with an ICE vehicle. Fuel cost is not one of them as far as I can tell.

YMMV, truly!

Dang that's a good electricity rate, compared to here. I looked at my most recent bill and I think I was somewhere around $0.36/kWh...

BTW I actually clicked through to the full report. What they said about "mostly home charging" was that the majority of *trips* were using home charging, that was not true of the mileage. I think their "mostly home charging" assumed that 25% of your miles were driven based upon commercial charging, because of the prevalence of longer trips for Americans. Which of course costs about 3x home rates in many places. Bear in mind I was skimming, so I may have gotten a little of that wrong--but I think it's based on 25% of your charging being commercial.

I'm not sure I buy it, personally. A lot of their other points (road taxes, gas prices, electricity rates) were based on the state of Michigan. Having been there many times, and having grown up in the Midwest, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of folks in Michigan are driving longer distances on a daily basis than you are in Portland or I am in SoCal.

So this would be a question for the folks here... How often do you actually use a commercial charger, as opposed to charging at home?

 

[Kent88]

So this would be a question for the folks here... How often do you actually use a commercial charger, as opposed to charging at home?

I'm driving a PHEV, and we rarely take it out of the tri-county area because it doesn't have much space. I have never paid to use a commercial charger. It's charged in my garage, or at a free level 2 charger.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'm driving a PHEV, and we rarely take it out of the tri-county area because it doesn't have much space. I have never paid to use a commercial charger. It's charged in my garage, or at a free level 2 charger.

Of course you've never paid for a commercial charger with a PHEV. You've paid to fill up the gas tank instead

But going back to the article, it makes a lot of assumptions that are not necessarily realistic.

For example, an assumption is that a household is a one-vehicle household. So you have to make a choice between your trips being 100% BEV or 100% ICEV.

But I think a fair number of early adopters might be multi-vehicle households. Let's say post-pandemic, Dad works from home 3 days a week and goes to the office 2 days a week. Mom is a realtor and works from home when she's not showing houses. They have 2 kids who have to go back and forth to school. They own a Bolt BEV and an Suburban ICEV.

Well in that family, they can use the BEV a **TON** for their daily driving tasks, and then when they want to go on a vacation, they load up the Suburban and don't worry about charging because they can stop for gas. And if Mom has a schedule showing properties where she might be expected to rack up 300 miles in a single day, maybe she takes the Suburban instead of the Bolt, and Dad drives the Bolt to take the kids to/from school.

In those situations, it might be absolutely normal to NEVER use a commercial charger, or at the very least it's 1-2% of charging requirement, not 25%.

It's why I advise if someone is looking at a BEV to honestly look at their driving habits, their home charging capability, and how often they have an "exception" to their driving habits. If you're a salesman in Winnipeg who has to drive to make sales calls commonly with 250 mile days (even in the frigid winter), you probably aren't a BEV candidate. If you're a corporate accountant living in Irvine CA who nominally drives 10 mi to and from the office every day and MAYBE on the weekend you drive up to LA, you're golden. (Not that anyone in OC likes to go to LA for any reason lol...) If you're like me, and you primarily WFH while your wife drives to an office ~30 miles r/t every day, and you're a 3-vehicle family so you have options for ICEV for road trips, it makes PERFECT sense to have one BEV (which is why I'm looking at it when we replace one of our current vehicles, but that's 4-5 years out as they're paid off and the mileages are still low). We all have different situations.

It goes back to that group essentially putting out BEV hit pieces, but I'm digging more into the assumptions that underpin those hit pieces.

 

[Kent88]

Of course you've never paid for a commercial charger with a PHEV. You've paid to fill up the gas tank instead

Maybe 4 times a year excluding road trips, but now that we're a family of four the car doesn't really work for packing all the stuff we need for a weekend at grandparent's house.

 

[doug293cz]

I might have missed it but I don't recall seeing this study linked here...
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/cars-gas-powered-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-late-2022/
Don't know really what to make of it save for the cost of "fuel" wasn't all that different between EV and ICE in 2022...

Cheers!

A quick Google suggests that they're a group that likes to put out EV hit pieces. I haven't read what they've put out there yet, but I am skeptical.

A takedown of the linked report, which is from a highly biased source, done by another highly biased source. The takedown makes what appears to be several valid points.

Brew on

 

[sibelman]

No doubt, commercial charging and lots of highway miles would shift the equation substantially. I admit I haven't followed the link.

 

[sibelman]

Here is a journalistic effort to drill into some of the variables that affect the compari$on between ICE and electric vehicles.

 

[sibelman]

hit pieces

For years I've felt that coverage in the New York Times has reflected a lack of enthusiasm for electric vehicles. Or, anyhow, way less enthusiasm than my own.

As @doug293cz suggests, one person's hit piece is another person's solid reporting (because confirmation bias). But lying (with or without statistics) is still lying.

 

[bleme]

I saw my first Mustang EV in the wild on the drive to work this morning!
I've yet to see a Faraday on the road, despite being 19 miles from their factory...

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

As @doug293cz suggests, one person's hit piece is another person's solid reporting (because confirmation bias). But lying (with or without statistics) is still lying.

Yep. And as you know (because you posted in the thread), I've made the same point in a thread in the debate forum about the cocoon of confirmation bias. Not that I want to drag the debate forum over here of course.

But that's what is difficult about that Anderson piece. They're not lying. They're presenting an analysis based on certain assumptions. Those assumptions MIGHT be true for some EV owners. In fact, they might be true for more EV owners than admit they're true, or have even thought about how often they are using commercial chargers and the associated costs.

But none of that matters, because only nerds [like me] will actually go and click through to the 45-page (IIRC) PDF of the study to examine what assumptions they made. A slightly larger portion of the population will see the headline and click through to the landing page and read the summary and think they're informed. And most? They'll just see the headline and needle their EV-driving buddy "See?! I told you these 'lectric cars were stupid!"

 

[Jaybird]

I don't have any intentions on getting one. I just can't see the bennies. Or I guess I do see a few of them but the downside outweighs the up IMHO.

That damn Tesla Plaid looks like a fun toy though I'll tell ya that.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

until they invent a better longer lasting low costing fast charging battery I'm out