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Double IPA Pliny the Elder Clone

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braindead

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Anyone got the perfect solution to dry hopping.
Brewed this on Sunday, so when do you think I should add the 1st and 2nd dry hops. Alsodo you think its necessary to rack to a secondary to dry hop, just don`t want to risk infection.
Should I throw the pellets straight in or whack them in a hop sock?
 

PianoMan

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I add the 1st in primary after 12 days or so for big beers. Cold crash after 3 days, then add the 2nd after transferring for another 3 days. Nothing wrong with hop debris in your finished beer, but keep the yeast/trub out for sure.

As long as your sanitize and not vigorously doing anything, infection danger is overrated.
 

stonebrewer

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Anyone got the perfect solution to dry hopping.
Brewed this on Sunday, so when do you think I should add the 1st and 2nd dry hops. Alsodo you think its necessary to rack to a secondary to dry hop, just don`t want to risk infection.
Should I throw the pellets straight in or whack them in a hop sock?
I throw them in after 4 days of fermentation, when the yeast is still active but slowing down. This allows the yeast to remove any oxygen that might get added with the hops. I don't worry about infection, but understand why others might...I do not secondary. I dry hop in the keg, which is closed except for a spunding valve set to off gas around 6-8PSI. I have manufactured some stainless steel screens that fit over my dip tubes to keep the hop matter out of my glass. Works very well. I have a keg of this clone on tap right now with that setup...come to think of it, it is time to go home and have a pour! :mug:
 

braindead

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What would you say the perfect bottle conditioning time is
 

Joesl8

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Made this a few months back, finally killing the keg of it...it's been rough but either it's not as bad as first, or I got used to the bitterness? A rough brew, not an easy drinker, mine was nothing like the real pliny. Doubt I'd attempt it again until I'm a lot better at brewing.
 

BlurryEyed

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Made this a few months back, finally killing the keg of it...it's been rough but either it's not as bad as first, or I got used to the bitterness? A rough brew, not an easy drinker, mine was nothing like the real pliny. Doubt I'd attempt it again until I'm a lot better at brewing.

A few months back? How was it when it was fresh?
 

Dcpcooks

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Damn, well, maybe I'll try that next.



Why would Vinnie lie about the recipe?

I doubt he's lying in an attempt to mess with people. Pros often change the hops and hops schedule to accommodate variations in hop quality from year to year. It is pretty common knowledge that he uses extract for the bittering charge but that's not on the published recipes in Zymurgy.

Homebrewers also have different hop utilization rates as well so I'm sure that factors into things.
 

Joesl8

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A few months back? How was it when it was fresh?
At least 2 1/2 to 3 months ago. It was bitter, piney and had an unpleasant heat. The bitterness overshadowed any fruitiness of a nice IPA IMO. It has either smoothed out or I got used to it. I prefer the Sculpin clone recipe I tried to this one, but I don't think either really tasted exactly like the originals??
 

Joesl8

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Well here's my calculations based on an extract utilization formula I found...GramsExtract=(IBU*[email protected] of boil)/(.35*10). Solved for IBU =(53), then added Warrior, in Beersmith 2, until IBU was achieved.

Used Beersmith2 with 62% efficiency at 5.8 gallons to fermenter with 90min boil. Don't see how the 70IBU in posted recipe sheet is possible with these amount of hops.

Other hops/grain bill were a simple calculation; 1300gallons/5.8gallons=224-factor so CTZ at 90min for example is 7*16/224=.5oz.

10.25gallons total.
5.75 strike

OG=1.072
IBU= 170
SRM=6.1
ABV=7.8%

Rahr = 17.1 lbs
c60 = 4.6oz (edit.. from lbs)
Corn Sugar = 14.4 oz

Warrior @ 90min = 1.1oz
CTZ @ 90min = .5oz

Amarillo @ 45min= .6oz

Simcoe @ 30min = 1.4oz

Cascade, Centennial, Amarillo, Simcoe @ WPool for 20min = 1oz each

Dry Hopping (Wasn't sure the days so just have dry hopping at 5 days each)
Dry1:
Simcoe = 1.6oz
Cascade = 1.25oz
CTZ = .70oz

Dry2:
Simcoe = 1.4oz
Cascade= 1.0oz
Amarillo/CTZ = .5oz each

Anyone else??

Edit: added extract formula found and recalculated to End of Boil volume. Also this is about 14oz of hops, my other calculation, using a smaller factor, make it around 22oz, and the grain bill would be way high.

So how was it? Close...close enough?? The real stuff is pretty drinkable, mine not so much :(
 

PianoMan

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So how was it? Close...close enough?? The real stuff is pretty drinkable, mine not so much :(
Here's the honest truth. Had a box of 6 Plinys show up on my door step in December 2015. A friend of my son went to California to become a Vintner and knew my wish for Pliny delivered some on Christmas break. The batch was 2 weeks old. Before this, only had 2; 7/14 and 3/15. I remembered the 7/14 being extremely floral, perfectly bittered and balanced, just an incredible beer! Not so much with the 12/15s. The couple who brought me those two earlier beers, I gave a couple bottles to. Them and I were sorely disappointed. None of the 6 had any flavors we remembered. Basically only bitter with some maltiness. Got one with a trade last year and seemed to fall in the middle of 7/14 and 12/15 batches.

So it's a complicated answer. No I have not made a clone that matched any of these beers. It's not just me talking, but to my hop head friends, this recipe was the best DIPA I've made to date...or since. It's really not drinkable for the first couple weeks, but it kicks into gear after. I have not, as of yet, been able to match that floral I remember from 7/14 tho.

I've been mucking around with different equipment, techniques, and styles so really haven't tried this in a while. (Along with massive overtime) Once I get my oxygen free modifications done, plan on some New England styles first then revisit this recipe. It may not be a clone, but it's damn good! One note, I do mash at 153-154, as I like a hair more body in my beers.


Let me add more commentary. About the time of this post #544, I learned more about hop oils and how different oils volitilize at different temperatures. Myrcene volatilize at 147F. So I started dividing whirlpool additions in half; a 175F and 147F addition. This SIGNIFICANTLY increased hop flavor. Just something to think about.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/
 

Joesl8

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Here's the honest truth. Had a box of 6 Plinys show up on my door step in December 2015. A friend of my son went to California to become a Vintner and knew my wish for Pliny delivered some on Christmas break. The batch was 2 weeks old. Before this, only had 2; 7/14 and 3/15. I remembered the 7/14 being extremely floral, perfectly bittered and balanced, just an incredible beer! Not so much with the 12/15s. The couple who brought me those two earlier beers, I gave a couple bottles to. Them and I were sorely disappointed. None of the 6 had any flavors we remembered. Basically only bitter with some maltiness. Got one with a trade last year and seemed to fall in the middle of 7/14 and 12/15 batches.

So it's a complicated answer. No I have not made a clone that matched any of these beers. It's not just me talking, but to my hop head friends, this recipe was the best DIPA I've made to date...or since. It's really not drinkable for the first couple weeks, but it kicks into gear after. I have not, as of yet, been able to match that floral I remember from 7/14 tho.

I've been mucking around with different equipment, techniques, and styles so really haven't tried this in a while. (Along with massive overtime) Once I get my oxygen free modifications done, plan on some New England styles first then revisit this recipe. It may not be a clone, but it's damn good! One note, I do mash at 153-154, as I like a hair more body in my beers.


Let me add more commentary. About the time of this post #544, I learned more about hop oils and how difficult oils volitilize at different temperatures. Myrcene volatilize at 147F. So I started dividing whirlpool additions in half; a 175F and 147F addition. This SIGNIFICANTLY increased hop flavor. Just something to think about.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/
Thanks for the informative post 🤘🏽I have heard, like other brewers they change ingredients slightly due to ingredient shortages...but then again time can really change a beers character. The one I tried, don't know batch or date, was as perfect as an DIPA could be. I was expecting overly bitter but it was
Perfecto! I guess I'll keep trying, lowering the 90 min boil hops and perhaps bumping up the dry hops? Cheers 🍻
 

PianoMan

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Thanks for the informative post 🤘🏽I have heard, like other brewers they change ingredients slightly due to ingredient shortages...but then again time can really change a beers character. The one I tried, don't know batch or date, was as perfect as an DIPA could be. I was expecting overly bitter but it was
Perfecto! I guess I'll keep trying, lowering the 90 min boil hops and perhaps bumping up the dry hops? Cheers 🍻
As a home brewer I very much enjoy experimenting. The more I read, the more I want to experiment. Just bottled, since my keggorator died, a Mosaic IPA. Dry hopped in primary, no cold crash, no secondary, no filtering, and CO2 coated everything. Hazy as *uck, but think oxygen has been a nemesis with my IPAs. After a few days kegged, started to get almost a diacetyl flavor. Dumped every other batch.

Anyway, yeah, I've started eliminating 90 or significantly reduced 60min additions. I like doing First Wort Hops in a strainer just to help keep hop material out also if those additions are used. We really want flavor, so pushing hop additions to later boil or whirlpool makes sense anyway. The only issue with massive dry hopping is how to clear debris. I only got 3.5gal as I was starting to rack all green beer over to bottling bucket but i'm experimenting so who cares, but others might.
 

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The issue may be completely different, but, sometimes, I get some kind of diacetyl flavor in my IPA and I think the culprit is carbonation: too much gas and I get this weird buttery diacetyl taste and when I dial the CO2 down, it just dissapears. Therefore, I set my CO2 volumes towards 2.2-2.3 vol. Maybe my gauge is off, but I never had this issue since then.
 

PianoMan

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The issue may be completely different, but, sometimes, I get some kind of diacetyl flavor in my IPA and I think the culprit is carbonation: too much gas and I get this weird buttery diacetyl taste and when I dial the CO2 down, it just dissapears. Therefore, I set my CO2 volumes towards 2.2-2.3 vol. Maybe my gauge is off, but I never had this issue since then.
Please tell me this happens a couple days after kegging..
 

Novims

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Yep. Beer is tasting fine at kegging and even a couple days after, once cold and slighly carbed. (I just plug the gas and let it carb slowly. ) Usually, by the second week, the taste begins to appear. I know then that gas pressure is too high. I set it back towards 2.2 vol and it disappears. Again, this is on my system.
 

PianoMan

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So it's only IPAs? That diacetyl flavor appears after about 3 days, but I force carb. Only ipas get that flavor. Stouts and hard Lemonaids are totally fine so I knew had to be related to hops. I just brewed a simple mosaic ipa and bottled CO2 coating everything as a test. My keggorator died and I've been reluctant to buy another until this issue is solved. As a matter of fact ever since I started kegging 2yrs ago, noticed my IPAs were hit and miss along with the described problem. Using true beverage lines significantly improved quality, but you may have just helped me move forward. Thanks for sharing!!
 

Novims

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Yes, this taste only appears on IPAs.
A friend of mine also changed his lines to *I don't know what better tap lines* and he noticed a change in the taste of his brews for the first glass.

I never bottled carb an IPA, but I hope for you that this "too much CO2 volume" is the culprit!
 

Dcpcooks

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So it's only IPAs? That diacetyl flavor appears after about 3 days, but I force carb. Only ipas get that flavor. Stouts and hard Lemonaids are totally fine so I knew had to be related to hops. I just brewed a simple mosaic ipa and bottled CO2 coating everything as a test. My keggorator died and I've been reluctant to buy another until this issue is solved. As a matter of fact ever since I started kegging 2yrs ago, noticed my IPAs were hit and miss along with the described problem. Using true beverage lines significantly improved quality, but you may have just helped me move forward. Thanks for sharing!!


Diacetyl is a byproduct of fermentation temps and yeast strain. The best thing you can do is ferment at 64 and raise the temp to 68 at the end of fermentation for a d rest (using white labs 001) The yeast will remove the precursors at that stage. Look at the original recipe in Zymurgy where Vinnie specifically address fermentation and diacetyl.

Co2 will not add that off flavor. Without tasting your beer I'd suspect it's fermentation temps or moving green beer before the yeast is done. That will address the buttery flavor.

If your losing hop aroma and flavor quickly then I'd suggest that is caused by oxidation. Oxidation after fermentation is an IPA killer. It will wreak havoc on hop aroma and flavor.
 

PianoMan

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Diacetyl is a byproduct of fermentation temps and yeast strain. The best thing you can do is ferment at 64 and raise the temp to 68 at the end of fermentation for a d rest (using white labs 001) The yeast will remove the precursors at that stage. Look at the original recipe in Zymurgy where Vinnie specifically address fermentation and diacetyl.

Co2 will not add that off flavor. Without tasting your beer I'd suspect it's fermentation temps or moving green beer before the yeast is done. That will address the buttery flavor.

If your losing hop aroma and flavor quickly then I'd suggest that is caused by oxidation. Oxidation after fermentation is an IPA killer. It will wreak havoc on hop aroma and flavor.
Thanks
 

Incubus2112

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As someone who lives in the California East Bay about 40 minutes away from Santa Rosa, I will be attempting to brew this beer using local water and charcoal filtration to see how the water balances out after some chemical additions (if needed) for ph mash.

Am VERY interested in trying this beer as it's SO hyped up. Or hopped up, as it were.
 

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Keg'd it today and added the last set of hops for the final dry hop at room temp for 5 days. Will pull the hops at carb up Monday.

I had about 1.5L extra that wouldn't fit in the keg. So I put it in a 2L pop bottle and carb's it up with a carbonator cap... It's delcious already. Very citrusy.. only a little green. Even my wife liked it and she doesn't like IPAs.
 

Shade

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I'd guess either the grain was garbage or you've made a pretty grievous error of process. If you get 4% beer when targetting 8% then sounds like efficiency of ~40%.. if you mashed decent grain at the right temperature it sounds hard to miss by so much.
 

Shade

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Not that I am a master of recipes at all but I have been tinkering for a while now and I look at this and think really? .. that's it? It looks under-hopped on the whirlpool/dry hop stages, pretty normal malt bill, the only thing that stands out is a preposterous 60 minute charge and therefore BU/GU ratio of over 3 ... so yes, it will be very bitter, but otherwise it just looks unremarkable.

How is it that this is so good?

I've never had the original to know what it's like. I imagine folks will say stop hating and just make it.
 

randomgnarkill

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I'd guess either the grain was garbage or you've made a pretty grievous error of process. If you get 4% beer when targetting 8% then sounds like efficiency of ~40%.. if you mashed decent grain at the right temperature it sounds hard to miss by so much.
Yeah. maybe the grains weren't fully milled or something.
 

jojacques

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So wait...... I was about to start brewing this after reading the first couple of pages of this thread, but as I get near the end of it, Im not so sure anymore I want to......

If I still want to try out this brew, what are the recommended modifications to the original recipe??? (hard to pin point in those 880 posts!)
 

grassfeeder

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So wait...... I was about to start brewing this after reading the first couple of pages of this thread, but as I get near the end of it, Im not so sure I want to anymore ......

If I still want to try out this brew, what are the recommended modifications to the original recipe??? (hard to pin point in those 880 posts!)
I think its absolutely worth brewing. Pliny is still a very good beer and certainly one that would be fun to brew at home. The OG recipe is still great.
 

oylerck

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Not that I am a master of recipes at all but I have been tinkering for a while now and I look at this and think really? .. that's it? It looks under-hopped on the whirlpool/dry hop stages, pretty normal malt bill, the only thing that stands out is a preposterous 60 minute charge and therefore BU/GU ratio of over 3 ... so yes, it will be very bitter, but otherwise it just looks unremarkable.

How is it that this is so good?

I've never had the original to know what it's like. I imagine folks will say stop hating and just make it.

The dry hop looks pretty good for a west coast IPA imho. Demand is all about scarcity and consistency, and I'm sure this is the basis for many west coast IPAs so there may be several copies in the commercial world.
 
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