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Double IPA Pliny the Elder Clone

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stickyfinger

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Yes, this taste only appears on IPAs.
A friend of mine also changed his lines to *I don't know what better tap lines* and he noticed a change in the taste of his brews for the first glass.

I never bottled carb an IPA, but I hope for you that this "too much CO2 volume" is the culprit!
Wow! I've been having this exact same problem in the last 6 months. I've had three batches of IPA go bad to diacetyl. All three batches were HEAVILY dry hopped beers. It's never happened in any of my other beers. It's not my fermentation. I can't believe it's not a long enough diacetyl rest. I'm so perplexed. I think I'm going to keep my dry hop down to 1 oz/gal and see if that helps. I'm also going to throw out all of my yeast and start over with fresh to make sure, but I don't think that is the problem either.
 

PianoMan

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Wow! I've been having this exact same problem in the last 6 months. I've had three batches of IPA go bad to diacetyl. All three batches were HEAVILY dry hopped beers. It's never happened in any of my other beers. It's not my fermentation. I can't believe it's not a long enough diacetyl rest. I'm so perplexed. I think I'm going to keep my dry hop down to 1 oz/gal and see if that helps. I'm also going to throw out all of my yeast and start over with fresh to make sure, but I don't think that is the problem either.
I went back to pre-kegging bottling days procedure. Just did 1st dry hop. Primary sample was awesome. We'll see in 2 weeks.

Basically doing these things..
- using Whirlflocc.
- racking only the clean wort from kettle.
- oxygenate wort.
- adding 1st dry hop in primary after 7 days.
- will cold crash to 60F and rack to secondary and dry hop #2.
- collect as much hops with strainer and rack to bottling bucket.
-make some effort to CO2 coat during all these processes, but I didn't before kegging and the beer was really good.

I just want a good drinkable IPA!! Is that too much to ask??


Just to add. Other's on other IPA threads mentioned this issue also and apparently Safale-05 is a possible culprit.
 

oylerck

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I listened to the latest dr homebrew today and the culprit for this guys diacetyl was his Bottling setup. Pediosomething was infecting his brews causing diacetyl. Could be worth looking into.
 

stickyfinger

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I listened to the latest dr homebrew today and the culprit for this guys diacetyl was his Bottling setup. Pediosomething was infecting his brews causing diacetyl. Could be worth looking into.
the two things i've seen people talk about is not having a long enough diacetyl rest and having a pediococcus infection. however, pediococcus shouldn't be able to create diacetyl in 2 days in a cold keg. i could see it killing some bottles though. it's still in the back of my mind as an option though. thanks for the input.
 

Braufessor

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Here is a link off of Probrewer.com - this is a real thing that impacts heavily dry hopped beers. I know there has been some research on it.... but, I have to track it down. From what was discussed in one of the sessions at NHC it basically has to do with large amounts of dry hops containing a certain amount of fermentable sugar in them which kicks the yeast back up and VDK is produced - which is a byproduct that leads to diacetyl. There have been a few different threads on pro brewer. I have experienced this a couple times - primarily when making a Hop Fu clone. I will post back more info when I am able to track it down.

Bottom line - it is a real thing. It has been causing people problems for several years even at the professional level. It is not well understood. If I was guessing, I would pin it on a combination of the idea of the Hops bringing an amount of fermentable sugar back into the beer, in combination with yeast that is "done" ...... and maybe oxygen??

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?34257-Diacetyl-from-Dry-Hopping
 

Braufessor

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I went back to pre-kegging bottling days procedure. Just did 1st dry hop. Primary sample was awesome. We'll see in 2 weeks.

Basically doing these things..
- using Whirlflocc.
- racking only the clean wort from kettle.
- oxygenate wort.
- adding 1st dry hop in primary after 7 days.
- will cold crash to 60F and rack to secondary and dry hop #2.
- collect as much hops with strainer and rack to bottling bucket.
-make some effort to CO2 coat during all these processes, but I didn't before kegging and the beer was really good.

I just want a good drinkable IPA!! Is that too much to ask??


Just to add. Other's on other IPA threads mentioned this issue also and apparently Safale-05 is a possible culprit.
I wonder if the cold crash is causing you problems??? Try a batch with a dry hop at day 4 and a second dry hop at Day 7 or 8. Then Cold crash around day 11-12. Bottle/keg on day 14..... Maybe that will keep the yeast doing their thing a bit longer and prevent the problems you have had.
 

PianoMan

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I exclusively used 05 when starting brewing in 2014. This included bottling high dry hopped beers. This issue only started after kegging. I only started cold crashing 6 months ago in attempt to KEEP this issue from happening. Admittingly, I've raised the temp to about 60F from an ice bath. My current batch is an IPA test bed. Cold crashing now with 1st dry hop at day 7. Will transfer tomorrow, add 2nd dry hop and bottle after 12hrs. Primary sample could have been bottled! Ha!


Thanks for the info Brau! That article is 10yrs old...obviously hasn't been figured out yet.

And..if this technique doesn't work, will definitely do your suggestion!
 

fun4stuff

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I went back to pre-kegging bottling days procedure. Just did 1st dry hop. Primary sample was awesome. We'll see in 2 weeks.

Basically doing these things..
- using Whirlflocc.
- racking only the clean wort from kettle.
- oxygenate wort.
- adding 1st dry hop in primary after 7 days.
- will cold crash to 60F and rack to secondary and dry hop #2.
- collect as much hops with strainer and rack to bottling bucket.
-make some effort to CO2 coat during all these processes, but I didn't before kegging and the beer was really good.

I just want a good drinkable IPA!! Is that too much to ask??


Just to add. Other's on other IPA threads mentioned this issue also and apparently Safale-05 is a possible culprit.
How are you using that strainer? Running a beer through a strainer or a strainer through the beer? Either way, that's an excellent way to cause oxygenation, the former being much worse.
 

PianoMan

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How are you using that strainer? Running a beer through a strainer or a strainer through the beer? Either way, that's an excellent way to cause oxygenation, the former being much worse.
Yes, I agree with the oxygenation. My bottled ipas only lasted a month. But only 25% of my kegged ipas are good. Just trying to troubleshoot for now...
 

Braufessor

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How are you using that strainer? Running a beer through a strainer or a strainer through the beer? Either way, that's an excellent way to cause oxygenation, the former being much worse.
Oh yeah...... don't do that. That absolutely would potentially introduce a tremendous amount of oxygen.

*Do a better job of letting hops settle out before transfer.
*Put a mesh screen over the dip tub in your keg to help prevent plugging up from hops that do make it through in the transfer.
***Find other strategies/methods.... But, straining your beer after it is fermented is definitely a technique to avoid. It is bad if you are dipping the strainer into fermenter to do this, it is even worse if you are running the beer through the strainer on its way to the bucket/keg.

Doing all hopping in primary is one way to avoid unnecessary oxygen. If you really want to get the beer off the first hops/yeast - this type of strategy can work very well (I have done this dozens of times). It takes a bit of getting the process down - but it can let you do a secondary hop, avoid oxygen and filter material out before kegging/bottling.
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html
 

PianoMan

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Like I said, if I do everything I did years ago and have no 'butter', then at least I have an approach to take...just hitting the reset button for now. I like all the other ideas, but 1 thing at a time. Have another IPA batch ready to go, just want to see how this current one ends up.

Has anyone with the diacetyl issue ever try adding potassium sorbate?
 

Braufessor

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PianoMan

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My option B is to convince you great HBers to send me some for sampling! 😉

Pint House Pizza supplies top notch IPAs so I'm not going to stress. Will continue to work on this issue for sure.

Have a slew of lighter porters, stouts, dubbels, and hard lemonaid to tied me over.
 

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I hope to try this recipe and just finished reading all 896 messages on this forum. There was very little discussion on diacetyl (mostly in the last messages), but I could not find any person actually recommending doing a diacetyl rest for this beer. Why is this not being practiced as a standard procedure? Has anyone actually done one for this recipe? If not, why not?
 

PianoMan

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I hope to try this recipe and just finished reading all 896 messages on this forum. There was very little discussion on diacetyl (mostly in the last messages), but I could not find any person actually recommending doing a diacetyl rest for this beer. Why is this not being practiced as a standard procedure? Has anyone actually done one for this recipe? If not, why not?
I think ppl are confused when they read our diacetyl conversations. It's not during fermentation that it's detected, it's a couple days after kegging. The belief is it's some kind of interaction with the massive dry hop additions (sugars from the hops), residual yeast, and possibly force carbing. Just did a 10oz total hop NEIPA and after day 6, no diacetyl, but I'm bottling. Other ipa threads are discussing this issue also. I'm doing another neipa using Cryo Hops next for dry hopping. Apparently, it's a problem with professional brewers also.
 

Bottoms_Up

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I think ppl are confused when they read our diacetyl conversations. It's not during fermentation that it's detected, it's a couple days after kegging. The belief is it's some kind of interaction with the massive dry hop additions (sugars from the hops), residual yeast, and possibly force carbing. Just did a 10oz total hop NEIPA and after day 6, no diacetyl, but I'm bottling. Other ipa threads are discussing this issue also. I'm doing another neipa using Cryo Hops next for dry hopping. Apparently, it's a problem with professional brewers also.
Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't aware that diacetly could creep up during the kegging phase. I just finished an 11 oz total hop NEIPA (Heady Topper taste-alike) and luckily do not notice any diacetyl.

By the way, there is yet another Pliny the Elder clone recipe in Brew Your Own's "Big Book of Homebrewing" that came out this year. It primarily uses Warrior and Chinook hops for bittering. It uses a total of 15.25 ounces of hops (Warrior - 2.75, Chinook - 0.5, Columbus - 4.25, Simcoe - 3.75, and Centennial - 4.0).
 

PianoMan

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Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't aware that diacetly could creep up during the kegging phase. I just finished an 11 oz total hop NEIPA (Heady Topper taste-alike) and luckily do not notice any diacetyl.

By the way, there is yet another Pliny the Elder clone recipe in Brew Your Own's "Big Book of Homebrewing" that came out this year. It primarily uses Warrior and Chinook hops for bittering. It uses a total of 15.25 ounces of hops (Warrior - 2.75, Chinook - 0.5, Columbus - 4.25, Simcoe - 3.75, and Centennial - 4.0).
Interesting. Chinook has an odd flavor where PtE appears more floral..at least some I've had. Couldn't hurt to try...
 

brewski09

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Interesting. Chinook has an odd flavor where PtE appears more floral..at least some I've had. Couldn't hurt to try...

The 0.5oz bittering charge won't have much but a piney bitterness and should round out the bitterness pretty well (it's also a little softer than warrior). I use chinook in heavy whirlpool/dryhop doses and it's a bit tropical.
 

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Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't aware that diacetly could creep up during the kegging phase. I just finished an 11 oz total hop NEIPA (Heady Topper taste-alike) and luckily do not notice any diacetyl.

By the way, there is yet another Pliny the Elder clone recipe in Brew Your Own's "Big Book of Homebrewing" that came out this year. It primarily uses Warrior and Chinook hops for bittering. It uses a total of 15.25 ounces of hops (Warrior - 2.75, Chinook - 0.5, Columbus - 4.25, Simcoe - 3.75, and Centennial - 4.0).

Diacetyl is a yeast health/ fermentation thing generally. (Infections aside).
Although to be fair diacetyl of some level is present in most ales. It's just not detectable to human taste buds. When the levels go up the butter flavour and overly sweet caramel flavours ask go up, meaning a fall in hop presence in most cases.

As it's not always detectable prior to kegging people can sometimes confuse it for caramel flavour. Caramel popcorn if u will. But at cold temperatures it can really ramp up and do it quickly. Within a few days of kegging. This is why I always do a drest for every single beer I brew to help minimise diacetyl caused by fermentation.
For me it will also depend on the yeast used. If I use Mangrove jacks dry packs I overpitch as the packs are smaller and the lag time. An sometime be quite long. The additions packs just eliminates that lag and ensures enough yeast for healthy fermentation.
Us95 not so much. But I found myself doing that recently by habit. And it came out wonderfully. (3 packs into 1.060) might seem overkill sure. But a $5 pack of yeast is better than dumping $50 of beer.

Oh an just FYI. over pitching isn't a if issue for Homebrew IMO.
 

Dcpcooks

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Diacetyl is a yeast health/ fermentation thing generally. (Infections aside).
Although to be fair diacetyl of some level is present in most ales. It's just not detectable to human taste buds. When the levels go up the butter flavour and overly sweet caramel flavours ask go up, meaning a fall in hop presence in most cases.

As it's not always detectable prior to kegging people can sometimes confuse it for caramel flavour. Caramel popcorn if u will. But at cold temperatures it can really ramp up and do it quickly. Within a few days of kegging. This is why I always do a drest for every single beer I brew to help minimise diacetyl caused by fermentation.
For me it will also depend on the yeast used. If I use Mangrove jacks dry packs I overpitch as the packs are smaller and the lag time. An sometime be quite long. The additions packs just eliminates that lag and ensures enough yeast for healthy fermentation.
Us95 not so much. But I found myself doing that recently by habit. And it came out wonderfully. (3 packs into 1.060) might seem overkill sure. But a $5 pack of yeast is better than dumping $50 of beer.

Oh an just FYI. over pitching isn't a if issue for Homebrew IMO.

I'd agree that homebrew is often under-pitched. I've been harvesting and repitching from my conicals and I've seen really nice clean fermentations lately.

The interesting thing I've noticed is fermentation may not be faster but it appears to be more complete. I've noticed very repeatable fermentations and gravities.

Obviously you'd need to spin up a big starter to match the quantity of yeast harvested from a batch. That's really relevant to high gravity beers where you can't reuse yeast. So I've been tinkering with much larger yeast pitch's. I don't get any off flavors but that's probably due to fermentation control and temp schedules.
 

Bottoms_Up

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Diacetyl is a yeast health/ fermentation thing generally. (Infections aside).
Although to be fair diacetyl of some level is present in most ales. It's just not detectable to human taste buds. When the levels go up the butter flavour and overly sweet caramel flavours ask go up, meaning a fall in hop presence in most cases.

As it's not always detectable prior to kegging people can sometimes confuse it for caramel flavour. Caramel popcorn if u will. But at cold temperatures it can really ramp up and do it quickly. Within a few days of kegging. This is why I always do a drest for every single beer I brew to help minimise diacetyl caused by fermentation.
For me it will also depend on the yeast used. If I use Mangrove jacks dry packs I overpitch as the packs are smaller and the lag time. An sometime be quite long. The additions packs just eliminates that lag and ensures enough yeast for healthy fermentation.
Us95 not so much. But I found myself doing that recently by habit. And it came out wonderfully. (3 packs into 1.060) might seem overkill sure. But a $5 pack of yeast is better than dumping $50 of beer.

Oh an just FYI. over pitching isn't a if issue for Homebrew IMO.
Interesting. So it's not really a phenomenon that occurs during kegging, but the added perception of it when it cools down. I have read that diacetyl is usually a concern when the beer has not been kept on the yeast long enough, such as those who like to keg their beer immediately after it has finished fermenting, after only a week or two. For most strong ales, the diacetyl might not be noticeable since it's masked by the strong flavour. But this is quite different when making delicate-tasting beers such as pilsners, where every off-flavour becomes much more noticeable. I've also read that it's best to keep the beer in the primary until fermentation has completed, and not to rack it to a secondary, since the primary contains more yeast that can help clean up the diacetyl more quickly and thoroughly. I generally leave my beer on the yeast for at least three weeks, even for ales.
 

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Interesting. So it's not really a phenomenon that occurs during kegging, but the added perception of it when it cools down. I have read that diacetyl is usually a concern when the beer has not been kept on the yeast long enough, such as those who like to keg their beer immediately after it has finished fermenting, after only a week or two. For most strong ales, the diacetyl might not be noticeable since it's masked by the strong flavour. But this is quite different when making delicate-tasting beers such as pilsners, where every off-flavour becomes much more noticeable. I've also read that it's best to keep the beer in the primary until fermentation has completed, and not to rack it to a secondary, since the primary contains more yeast that can help clean up the diacetyl more quickly and thoroughly. I generally leave my beer on the yeast for at least three weeks, even for ales.

Exactly.
The yeast essentially creates and eats the s**t it makes. Haha.
 

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Ok, brewed this last weekend, went great, hit 1.072 exact. But I didn t think through dry hop plan while on vacation! Hit her with a nice big starter of WLP 090 SD super yeast), and at day 8 fermentation, it's already at FG of 1.015. Went at 67 in chamber. Drinking the sample now with dinner, and it's the best beer I've made so far.

Based on where I am and travel plans, I'm going to mod the dry hop plan, and cut fermentation short from 4 weeks in recipe by a few days. Going to drop the firs dry hop tomorrow at noon, on day 9. Then I'll be back home on day 21. Then I'll hit it with the 2nd dry hop, raise it up to 70 F and keg on day 25.

So I'll be short 3 days, and 1st dry hop will be 16 days instead of 12. 2nd dry hop as planned. I think this will make a better, fresher beer than the alternative, which is to wait till I get back to start first dry hop on day 21, and have it go for nearly 5 weeks prior to kegging. I'm not in a huge rush, so I'll do whatever makes the beer taste better. I can condition in the keg.

I've read somewhere about the back end of primary being an ideal time, and that's where I am as of today, so instinct tells me to start tomorrow.

Any advice, dry hop now, or Friday after next, would be appreciated.

Damn, this hydro sample is good!
 

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Just brewed this and fermentation has completed. It tastes so amazing I almost don't want to add the dry hop additions. Very good as is right now.
 

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Almost every picture I've seen of Pliny the Elder homebrew is darker than the commercial brew. I've made this a few times now and although the flavor is pretty close, mine is also significantly darker. Is that a sign that I (we) are putting in too much Crystal 45L? I'm guessing I shouldn't care at all that my homebrew is darker. More importantly, I haven't been able to duplicate the crisp dryness of Pliny. The owner of my homebrew store says that is Russian River's "magic," but I'd like to think that there is something I should be able to tweak to dial this in better. Does it have something to do with the late edition corn sugar (maybe I should reduce or eliminate it)? Or perhaps how the flameout hops are whirlpooled?
 

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There's a post, maybe in this thread, of the real PTE recipe - a brew sheet someone took a photo of while PTE was being brewed under contract @ Firestone Walker.

I don't remember people mentioning anything about the crystal malts and +/- to the homebrew recipe. The discussion was focused on the hops.

Perhaps RR uses steam kettles vs. direct fire. Off the cuff, I would expect steam to produce a lighter color brew.
 

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Latest version, really good. I agree that the ones posted seem darker, so I used crystal 40 for this one. I think it looks a lot closer to the real Pliny.
 

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That definitely looks a bit lighter than mine. Did you whirlpool the 0 addition hops, or did you just dump them in at flameout? I whirlpooled at 2 temperatures and I wonder if I extracted too much hops oils at the expense of a loss of crispness/dryness.
 

Scturo

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That definitely looks a bit lighter than mine. Did you whirlpool the 0 addition hops, or did you just dump them in at flameout? I whirlpooled at 2 temperatures and I wonder if I extracted too much hops oils at the expense of a loss of crispness/dryness.
I followed the recipe for the most part. FO hops went in at FO, the first dry hops went in at day 3 for 5 days, and the second dry hop charge went in at day 8.


Which recipe version did you use, Scturo?
I used the first recipe in the post. I just switched out the crystal 45 for crystal 40. It took 2 weeks in the keg to clear up. Came out awesome.
 

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I used the first recipe in the post. I just switched out the crystal 45 for crystal 40. It took 2 weeks in the keg to clear up. Came out awesome.
Sounds encouraging. I plan to make this once the weather cools down a bit. I'll take your advice and add Crystal 40 instead of Crystal 45. Or just add a little less Crystal 45.
 
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