Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[HopsAreGood]

I respect your opinion but I’m on the side of OH and EQ being better

100% agree. Other half and EQ just taste amazing. I ever so slightly prefer OH to EQ but it’s very close. Occasionally the EQ juice can get a little weird to me, but nine times out out ten their beers are superb. Treehouse is unique because of their house yeast, which we all know is wonderful, but it gets a bit redundant, and overpowers hops in my opinion. For me, everything OH puts out is just phenomenal. I particularly enjoy their single hop beers because the flavor and aroma come through so, so much. What they consistently put out, is what I’m trying to consistently make.

That being said it’s not rocket science what they’re doing. 2-row or Pilsner, oats, maybe some wheat here and there, London ale 3 fermented at 72 throughout to get the fruity esters, drop the yeast before a massive dry hop, transfer to a serving vessel, carb to 2.4 volumes. Seems easy on the surface but they absolutely have it dialed in. The only other beers that I feel come close are fresh examples from monkish. They’ve really, really got it dialed in as well.

 

[TBryerton]

100% agree. Other half and EQ just taste amazing. I ever so slightly prefer OH to EQ but it’s very close. Occasionally the EQ juice can get a little weird to me, but nine times out out ten their beers are superb. Treehouse is unique because of their house yeast, which we all know is wonderful, but it gets a bit redundant, and overpowers hops in my opinion. For me, everything OH puts out is just phenomenal. I particularly enjoy their single hop beers because the flavor and aroma come through so, so much. What they consistently put out, is what I’m trying to consistently make.

That being said it’s not rocket science what they’re doing. 2-row or Pilsner, oats, maybe some wheat here and there, London ale 3 fermented at 72 throughout to get the fruity esters, drop the yeast before a massive dry hop, transfer to a serving vessel, carb to 2.4 volumes. Seems easy on the surface but they absolutely have it dialed in. The only other beers that I feel come close are fresh examples from monkish. They’ve really, really got it dialed in as well.

I

100% agree. Other half and EQ just taste amazing. I ever so slightly prefer OH to EQ but it’s very close. Occasionally the EQ juice can get a little weird to me, but nine times out out ten their beers are superb. Treehouse is unique because of their house yeast, which we all know is wonderful, but it gets a bit redundant, and overpowers hops in my opinion. For me, everything OH puts out is just phenomenal. I particularly enjoy their single hop beers because the flavor and aroma come through so, so much. What they consistently put out, is what I’m trying to consistently make.

That being said it’s not rocket science what they’re doing. 2-row or Pilsner, oats, maybe some wheat here and there, London ale 3 fermented at 72 throughout to get the fruity esters, drop the yeast before a massive dry hop, transfer to a serving vessel, carb to 2.4 volumes. Seems easy on the surface but they absolutely have it dialed in. The only other beers that I feel come close are fresh examples from monkish. They’ve really, really got it dialed in as well.

Is it confirmed they use LAIII or is that just the assumption from the one google search. I thought someone mentioned prior to the brew chart being shared that they use joystick? LAIII usually sticks out to me and I’ve never gotten it from any OH beers.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I


Is it confirmed they use LAIII or is that just the assumption from the one google search. I thought someone mentioned prior to the brew chart being shared that they use joystick? LAIII usually sticks out to me and I’ve never gotten it from any OH beers.

The brew sheet in this thread shows them using A-18, which is BSI’s equivalent of LA3. I know sometimes they mention using Vermont yeast in the description of their beers, but they are definitely using LA3 at least sometimes.

https://www.brewingscience.com/product/london-ale-iii/

 

[cheesebach]

I


Is it confirmed they use LAIII or is that just the assumption from the one google search. I thought someone mentioned prior to the brew chart being shared that they use joystick? LAIII usually sticks out to me and I’ve never gotten it from any OH beers.

Joystick was just some confusion over the "A-18" listed on the brew sheet as Imperial A18 rather than BSI A-18 (LAIII). I don't think that there's been any real speculation that they've used it in IPAs, at least that I've seen. In my experience, LAIII has given me the closest to the OH NEIPA character for my beers of any yeast I've used for the style.

 

[TBryerton]

Joystick was just some confusion over the "A-18" listed on the brew sheet as Imperial A18 rather than BSI A-18 (LAIII). I don't think that there's been any real speculation that they've used it in IPAs, at least that I've seen. In my experience, LAIII has given me the closest to the OH NEIPA character for my beers of any yeast I've used for the style.

I was referring to the post on page 2 from @Brewpharm_hill - “I did a tour there and if I remember correctly they said they use Imperial's Joystick or something like that for their house strain”. Seems like quite a coincidence that a18 appears on the brew sheet - which is also a name for Joystick.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I was referring to the post on page 2 from @Brewpharm_hill - “I did a tour there and if I remember correctly they said they use Imperial's Joystick or something like that for their house strain”. Seems like quite a coincidence that a18 appears on the brew sheet - which is also a name for Joystick.

Definitely splitting hairs here, but everywhere I look imperial’s joystick
is listed as A18 (no dash) while BSI’s LA3 is listed as A-18 (with the dash) Who knows....but the sheet is written as A-18.

I’ve used LA3 a lot and agree I get the closet character to OH when using it as far as mouthfeel, some residual sweetness etc. The amount of hops that are going into these beers are likely drowning out some of the yeast in terms of actual flavor contribution.

No evidence to back this up. Just my personal experience.

 

[beervoid]

Definitely splitting hairs here, but everywhere I look imperial’s joystick
is listed as A18 (no dash) while BSI’s LA3 is listed as A-18 (with the dash) Who knows....but the sheet is written as A-18.

I’ve used LA3 a lot and agree I get the closet character to OH when using it as far as mouthfeel, some residual sweetness etc. The amount of hops that are going into these beers are likely drowning out some of the yeast in terms of actual flavor contribution.

No evidence to back this up. Just my personal experience.

I also have a hard time picking up any difference on yeast esters in heavily dry hopped beers. Considering the amount they use.

 

[Bibbett]

Is it possible that they are using joystick at 72f and getting some subtle esters that might not be present at the recommended fermentation temp of 60-70? Might be worth a shot [emoji848]

 

[HopsAreGood]

Is it possible that they are using joystick at 72f and getting some subtle esters that might not be present at the recommended fermentation temp of 60-70? Might be worth a shot [emoji848]

Anything is possible. Anything and everything.

 

[Bibbett]

Ferment on the cooler side around 62 to start. Raise to 66 near fg. Doing double dry hop additions a couple days apart for 3 days each. Firt addition @ about 65-75% attenuation.Try to limit oxygen as much as possible.Noticed a huge improvement in flavor and aroma fermenting cooler.

Your observations here regarding low fermentation temp and an improved flavour profile align with some of the studies that Scott Janish put to the test with one of his recent beers Thiol Driver.

http://scottjanish.com/thiol-driver/

He references a study that saw increased Thiol concentrations in a beer fermented at lager temps vs ale temps:

“A paper that examined whether thiol concentrations increase or decrease based on fermentation temperature dosed test beers with Mosaic hops at the onset of fermentation (early dry hopping) and measured thiols 3MH and 3MHA. The authors found that almost twice the amount of 3MHA was measured in the beer fermented at 59°F (15°C) compared to the one at 71°F (21°C) with a wheat beer yeast (Tum 68).6
Specifically, the above paper found that the tropical and desirable 3MHA (which is converted from 3MH) went from 4 ng/l to 8 ng/l at the lower temperature.”

It would seem pretty reasonable that this increase in thiols (3MH- grapefruit and 3MHA - passion fruit) would likely be from the whirlpool additions as well as the dry hops. This is something I’m hoping to put to the test in the next few weeks. Maximising these flavours seems like a no brainer so it’s gotta be worth a shot!

 

[beervoid]

Your observations here regarding low fermentation temp and an improved flavour profile align with some of the studies that Scott Janish put to the test with one of his recent beers Thiol Driver.

http://scottjanish.com/thiol-driver/

He references a study that saw increased Thiol concentrations in a beer fermented at lager temps vs ale temps:

“A paper that examined whether thiol concentrations increase or decrease based on fermentation temperature dosed test beers with Mosaic hops at the onset of fermentation (early dry hopping) and measured thiols 3MH and 3MHA. The authors found that almost twice the amount of 3MHA was measured in the beer fermented at 59°F (15°C) compared to the one at 71°F (21°C) with a wheat beer yeast (Tum 68).6
Specifically, the above paper found that the tropical and desirable 3MHA (which is converted from 3MH) went from 4 ng/l to 8 ng/l at the lower temperature.”

It would seem pretty reasonable that this increase in thiols (3MH- grapefruit and 3MHA - passion fruit) would likely be from the whirlpool additions as well as the dry hops. This is something I’m hoping to put to the test in the next few weeks. Maximising these flavours seems like a no brainer so it’s gotta be worth a shot!

Interesting info. Yet OH seems to ferment at 72f the whole time.

 

[couchsending]

When you ferment at 72 and DH at 6lb per bbl you get maximum yeast esters and crazy hop intensity... but most of all you can turn and burn DDH murky lactose bombs that all the kids line up for in 12 days. If you were to ferment at 58 or 60 it would probably take quite a bit longer and you’d need quite a bit more yeast.

LAIII will ferment at 50 you just need twice as much yeast. I know a professional brewer who’s won some decent awards for a “Vienna lager” that’s just LAIII fermented at 53.

I’ve got a batch of beer going that’s all American Noble Citra and Simcoe in the boil and “Vermont ale” fermenting at 56 pitched at close to 2m/ml/* Plato (provides the yeast calc’s are actually correct). Pitched at 52 last night around 10, trucking right along at 56 this AM when I woke up.

 

[couchsending]

“Vermont Ale” took the beer from 1.044 to 1.009 in 4 days at 56. Going to let it climb to 63 and give it a few more days. Super fast, no diacetyl or acetaldehyde.. kinda nuts

 

[beervoid]

“Vermont Ale” took the beer from 1.044 to 1.009 in 4 days at 56. Going to let it climb to 63 and give it a few more days. Super fast, no diacetyl or acetaldehyde.. kinda nuts

Nice, keep us posted. Which vermont did u use?
Curious how the esters come out. I have best luck starting at lower temps and raising at the end to get that stonefruit character

 

[Bibbett]

That’s crazy. Do you reckon most ale yeasts will ferment that low if you pitch enough?

 

[couchsending]

Not sure. Chico definitely will. S04 definitely will.

The yeast I’m using I harvested from some cans. The “Kenny's Kolsch” from The Alchemist that this is inspired by had very little in the way of esters. My goal was something similar.

 

[Fergal]

Nearly 50% oats on the oat cream IPA (#7). You would imagine they would have to use a fair proportion of malted oats to avoid lauter issues right?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Nearly 50% oats on the oat cream IPA (#7). You would imagine they would have to use a fair proportion of malted oats to avoid lauter issues right?

Yes. Definitely. I know of other brewers locally who have done 50% malted oats. Troon is putting out some of the best iPas in the game.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/troon-brewing-placebo-effect-ipa-recipe/

 

[Dgallo]

Nearly 50% oats on the oat cream IPA (#7). You would imagine they would have to use a fair proportion of malted oats to avoid lauter issues right?

I would think so. At least 30% of that I would think is malted but again they have recirculating mash tuns with automated paddling so they could be working through the mash and sparge if you know what I’m saying.

 

[loudcloudbrewing]

In 2018 I met Matt and let him try one of my NEIPA's. I had %30 flaked oats in that particular recipe. His feedback: "great beer, but more oats man." Compared to what I was reading back then (~%20) I was kind of suprised, thinking I was already %10 over the average. He said up it to %40-%50 and I'd have a killer mouthfeel.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpvMq4rgZgb/

 

[beervoid]

In 2018 I met Matt and let him try one of my NEIPA's. I had %30 flaked oats in that particular recipe. His feedback: "great beer, but more oats man." Compared to what I was reading back then (~%20) I was kind of suprised, thinking I was already %10 over the average. He said up it to %40-%50 and I'd have a killer mouthfeel.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpvMq4rgZgb/

Good stuff!
And then we got breweries like Hill Farmstead and Tree House claiming to use no oats or wheat.
The contrast

 

[Dgallo]

In 2018 I met Matt and let him try one of my NEIPA's. I had %30 flaked oats in that particular recipe. His feedback: "great beer, but more oats man." Compared to what I was reading back then (~%20) I was kind of suprised, thinking I was already %10 over the average. He said up it to %40-%50 and I'd have a killer mouthfeel.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpvMq4rgZgb/

I’ve also heard they are around 40% on the oats. But I would bet 25- 30% of that is malted oats. I’ve gone up to 30% but I won’t Personally go higher. Have nice lacing and head formation is too important for the overall appearance is aiming for in my beers

 

[Dgallo]

Good stuff!
And then we got breweries like Hill Farmstead and Tree House claiming to use no oats or wheat.
The contrast

Treehouse uses heavy wheat and oats often look through their beer description, Snow, Autumn, the curiousty 70s almost all had I, Summer, Punch, Tango, all of these use one or the other. I think treehouse used to just not list them as being used so they didn’t give away any secrets but now since everyone is use them and putting it on the can for marketing, they are starting to list it. Shawn Hill talks about a sweet spot % for oats that he uses. I’ll see if I can find the article

 

[HopsAreGood]

I posted this just a few posts back but I’m
going to do it again.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/troon-brewing-placebo-effect-ipa-recipe/

I’m pretty sure most of you have probably never had a beer from troon but they are amazing. In the above recipe they’re using 50% malted oats. I doubt they do this for every beer but most of their iPas have incredibly soft Mouthfeel.

https://www.instagram.com/troonbrewing/?hl=en

 

[couchsending]

Treehouse uses heavy wheat and oats often look through their beer description, Snow, Autumn, the curiousty 70s almost all had I, Summer, Punch, Tango, all of these use one or the other. I think treehouse used to just not list them as being used so they didn’t give away any secrets but now since everyone is use them and putting it on the can for marketing, they are starting to list it. Shawn Hill talks about a sweet spot % for oats that he uses. I’ll see if I can find the article

I don’t think Tree House uses any wheat or oats in their original core beers or the beers that don’t list oats or wheat as an ingredient.

You don’t need wheat or oats for haze, head retention, mouthfeel etc. you can accomplish all those things with different brewing process changes and water chemistry.

Wheat or Oats in large quantities, just like anything else has an impact on flavor as well as other things. If you want a really wheaty or oaty flavor then use a lot. I guess if you want something incredibly thick that also ends up being somewhat slick then sure add a bunch of oats.


There are very few recipes published by Shaun Hill. The one I’ve seen called for 2-3% oats.

 

[couchsending]

Treehouse uses heavy wheat and oats often look through their beer description, Snow, Autumn, the curiousty 70s almost all had I, Summer, Punch, Tango, all of these use one or the other. I think treehouse used to just not list them as being used so they didn’t give away any secrets but now since everyone is use them and putting it on the can for marketing, they are starting to list it. Shawn Hill talks about a sweet spot % for oats that he uses. I’ll see if I can find the article

I don’t think Tree House uses any wheat or oats in their original core beers or the beers that don’t list oats or wheat as an ingredient.

You don’t need wheat or oats for haze, head retention, mouthfeel etc. you can accomplish all those things with different brewing process changes and water chemistry.

 

[Dgallo]

I don’t think Tree House uses any wheat or oats in their original core beers or the beers that don’t list oats or wheat as an ingredient.

You don’t need wheat or oats for haze, head retention, mouthfeel etc. you can accomplish all those things with different brewing process changes and water chemistry.

Never said you needed them for haze but they are certainly moving towards more Oat heavy and wheat heavy grist. Most likely theres a reason for that. Also the two breweries that have surpassed treehouse in quality, Other Half and Equilibrium, also have heavy wheat and oat grist in the majority of their beers. I think that’s saying something

I know you aren’t a fan of using them in your IPAs which is fine but I do believe you can not create the same mouthfeel with just water adjustment as you can with high protein grains such as chit, wheat, and oats specific. That’s not saying you can’t create a solid mouthfeel without using them, just not the same

 

[isomerization]

I posted this just a few posts back but I’m
going to do it again.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/troon-brewing-placebo-effect-ipa-recipe/

I’m pretty sure most of you have probably never had a beer from troon but they are amazing. In the above recipe they’re using 50% malted oats. I doubt they do this for every beer but most of their iPas have incredibly soft Mouthfeel.
https://www.instagram.com/troonbrewing/?hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/troonbrewing/?hl=en

My next batch is actually going to be something similar:

50% two-row
25% malted oats
25% flaked oats
1 lb lactose

Hops will be a blend of Motueka, Riwaka, Nelson, Galaxy and Enigma (16 oz in 6 gal).

1318 fermented cool

No idea what to expect, but thats part of the fun

 

[Dgallo]

My next batch is actually going to be something similar:

50% two-row
25% malted oats
25% flaked oats
1 lb lactose

Hops will be a blend of Motueka, Riwaka, Nelson, Galaxy and Enigma (16 oz in 6 gal).

1318 fermented cool

No idea what to expect, but thats part of the fun

Can’t speak for your grain bill but I just tasted a little hydro sample of a triple ipa that should be kegged on Wednesday that is riwaka, Nelson, citra and Columbus and it’s awesome. The riwaka and Nelson are the stars so far. Still have to dryhop but I can already tell it’s going to be awesome. Also it will be crazy smooth for 10.2%

 

[couchsending]

Never said you needed them for haze but they are certainly moving towards more Oat heavy and wheat heavy grist. Most likely theres a reason for that. Also the two breweries that have surpassed treehouse in quality, Other Half and Equilibrium, also have heavy wheat and oat grist in the majority of their beers. I think that’s saying something

I know you aren’t a fan of using them in your IPAs which is fine but I do believe you can not create the same mouthfeel with just water adjustment as you can with high protein grains such as chit, wheat, and oats specific. That’s not saying you can’t create a solid mouthfeel without using them, just not the same

I think our definitions of “quality” might be different.

They’re releasing what the customer wants or thinks they need most likely cause they’re intelligent businessmen have some sizable goals and ventures that they need to pay off.

It’s not just water. You can create a soft, full texture that isn’t thick or cloying or hard to drink more than one of with water chemistry, specific mashing regimes, natural carbonation, etc. And the best part is the beer doesn’t taste like it has a bunch of wheat or oats in it.