Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

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beervoid

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For those of you that use BS, it seemed to me the default potential yield of tf malted oats is set to high.
I adjusted it down to 1.029 (62%).
 

TravelingLight

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For those of you that use BS, it seemed to me the default potential yield of tf malted oats is set to high.
I adjusted it down to 1.029 (62%).
Just opened mine to look, and it's at 1.033. Is that what yours was set to before? (Didn't know if it differed between versions of BS) Out of curiosity, what made you choose 1.029? Thanks.
 

Trevor Mack

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Just waiting for my take to finish fermenting. Pre fermentation was very smooth and sweet when finished I can see this turning out quite well. Latest gravity reading was around 1.017 and yeast is starting to slow just a few more days I'd imagine.
 

brew703

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Had an oat cream IPA today and I have to say the mouthfeel was like no other.
Very creamy.
In order to obtain this is it more about the percentage of oats or a combination of oats and water chemistry?
Is 50% combo of flaked and malted oats the correct % for the creaminess?
 

isomerization

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Had an oat cream IPA today and I have to say the mouthfeel was like no other.
Very creamy.
In order to obtain this is it more about the percentage of oats or a combination of oats and water chemistry?
Is 50% combo of flaked and malted oats the correct % for the creaminess?
Haven’t sampled my iteration yet, but my starting point was to take a NE IPA recipe (I added lactose, but don’t know if necessary), bump up bittering a tad and (try to) use malted oats at 35-50% of the grist. I had to sub in flaked oats, but if I make this style again it will be mostly malted next time.
 

brew703

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Haven’t sampled my iteration yet, but my starting point was to take a NE IPA recipe (I added lactose, but don’t know if necessary), bump up bittering a tad and (try to) use malted oats at 35-50% of the grist. I had to sub in flaked oats, but if I make this style again it will be mostly malted next time.
Thanks. Thinking about taking a stab. Don't want to use any lactose so going to maybe aim for 50% flaked and malted oats.
 

Cathedral

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Just wanted to drop in and say I took this recipe and bastardized it to make a Red ale, because that's what I was craving at the time. It's cold crashing now; I'm kegging it tomorrow so it's ready for the weekend. I'll post pictures when it's done, just for sharts and gaggles.
 

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I'm having a hard time finding Oat Malt. Neither of the brew shops carry it. Flaked Oats I can get as Golden Naked Oats.
Is Thomas Fawcett Oat malt the same? If not is there a suitable substitute?
https://www.txbrewing.com/thomas-faucett-oat-malt.html
There’s at least one more brand, but flaked and GNO are not the same as normal oat malt.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/canada-malting-company-superior-oat-malt.html

Flaked isn’t malted at all, so it can’t convert in its own but with base grain it can be. Oat malt just lets you push the percentages of oats way higher. GNO is technically malted but it’s basically a crystal Oat malt so again it can’t self convert. It’s also huskless whereas standard oat malt has a husk(A rather hard one at that), and replaces the need for Rice hulls. A Hugh percentage of flaked will get rather gummy in the mash, not sure about a large percentage of GNO but I’m not sure you’d want to do that for flavor reasons.

I had my LHBS special order them for me the first time I used them but they charged me $4dollars a pound...pretty steep. Since then I just get it online 10 lbs at a time very now and then
 

brew703

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There’s at least one more brand, but flaked and GNO are not the same as normal oat malt.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/canada-malting-company-superior-oat-malt.html

Flaked isn’t malted at all, so it can’t convert in its own but with base grain it can be. Oat malt just lets you push the percentages of oats way higher. GNO is technically malted but it’s basically a crystal Oat malt so again it can’t self convert. It’s also huskless whereas standard oat malt has a husk(A rather hard one at that), and replaces the need for Rice hulls. A Hugh percentage of flaked will get rather gummy in the mash, not sure about a large percentage of GNO but I’m not sure you’d want to do that for flavor reasons.

I had my LHBS special order them for me the first time I used them but they charged me $4dollars a pound...pretty steep. Since then I just get it online 10 lbs at a time very now and then
So the Thomas Fawcett I linked is what I need, correct? I definitely dont want to go overboard w/flaked oats.
 

Dgallo

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So the Thomas Fawcett I linked is what I need, correct? I definitely dont want to go overboard w/flaked oats.
Norther brewer carries malted pats and actually give a good crush on them if you don’t have your own grain mill
 

Dryyourbeers

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There’s at least one more brand, but flaked and GNO are not the same as normal oat malt.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/canada-malting-company-superior-oat-malt.html

Flaked isn’t malted at all, so it can’t convert in its own but with base grain it can be. Oat malt just lets you push the percentages of oats way higher. GNO is technically malted but it’s basically a crystal Oat malt so again it can’t self convert. It’s also huskless whereas standard oat malt has a husk(A rather hard one at that), and replaces the need for Rice hulls. A Hugh percentage of flaked will get rather gummy in the mash, not sure about a large percentage of GNO but I’m not sure you’d want to do that for flavor reasons.

I had my LHBS special order them for me the first time I used them but they charged me $4dollars a pound...pretty steep. Since then I just get it online 10 lbs at a time very now and then

Flaked oats are gelatinised during the flaking process so the starches are broken down there.

Also, I have used naked oats at 50% and had zero sparge issues. So I do not believe it is the husks that are responsible for them being easier to use in large percentages than flaked oats (or at least not that entirely). There must be something else, other than the absence of husks, that makes flaked oats harder to use in large quantities versus naked malted oats.
 

brew703

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Here's what I have come up with.
50% Pils or 2Row
16.7% each Flaked oats, Malted oats and Golden Promise (may sub golden naked oats for the GP).
For hops thinking Citra and Vic Secret (2-1.5).
Yeast either Conan or 1318.
I don't want this grain bill to be overly complicated.
I'm skeptical about using Golden Naked Oats in this style, mainly because I want a very light color. Maybe split GP and GNO?
Thoughts?
 

K_tile

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What about Briess Blonde Roast Oat Malt. Is it similar to those mentioned above?
 

BeerFst

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Flaked oats are gelatinised during the flaking process so the starches are broken down there.

Also, I have used naked oats at 50% and had zero sparge issues. So I do not believe it is the husks that are responsible for them being easier to use in large percentages than flaked oats (or at least not that entirely). There must be something else, other than the absence of husks, that makes flaked oats harder to use in large quantities versus naked malted oats.
Talking out of shop here but the flaked still need to be mashed to convert. Just not cereal mashed to enable the enzymes to do their thing, or at least I believe that’s what I’ve read about flaked wheat.
Interesting about the GNO though, how did that come out? My latest only had a half pound which was 3.8%, Can’t say I’ve noticed too much in the beer so far but it’s just about finished up and waiting for the first dh. Didn’t add as much color as I had hoped tho
 

Coffeeturnal

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What about Briess Blonde Roast Oat Malt. Is it similar to those mentioned above?
Roast oat is huskless and had no diastatic power.

In my experience, it's not bad, but at high percentages (~30%) it got a little astringent. I suppose that could have been something I did though, that beer had lots of frustrating things happen to it.

I wouldn't say avoid it, but give it a try in lower quantities first. I don't think it was for me.
 

Dryyourbeers

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Talking out of shop here but the flaked still need to be mashed to convert. Just not cereal mashed to enable the enzymes to do their thing, or at least I believe that’s what I’ve read about flaked wheat.
Interesting about the GNO though, how did that come out? My latest only had a half pound which was 3.8%, Can’t say I’ve noticed too much in the beer so far but it’s just about finished up and waiting for the first dh. Didn’t add as much color as I had hoped tho
yes, that’s my understanding too but in this regard they don’t differ from oat malt. And both require a base malt, as neither has sufficient diastatic power. I guess my point was that there is nothing different required to ‘convert’ flaked oats than is required to ‘convert’ malted oats. Right? Or am I missing something?

Raw oats and flaked oats seem to be considered interchangeably in a lot of discussions I see but they are different and have different requirements and results.
 

isomerization

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yes, that’s my understanding too but in this regard they don’t differ from oat malt. And both require a base malt, as neither has sufficient diastatic power. I guess my point was that there is nothing different required to ‘convert’ flaked oats than is required to ‘convert’ malted oats. Right? Or am I missing something?

Raw oats and flaked oats seem to be considered interchangeably in a lot of discussions I see but they are different and have different requirements and results.
You are missing something. The malting process develops the enzymes needed for starch conversion during the mash. Oat malt has gone through this process.

See:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00487.x

Good oat primer from Janish:
http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/
 

isomerization

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Here's what I have come up with.
50% Pils or 2Row
16.7% each Flaked oats, Malted oats and Golden Promise (may sub golden naked oats for the GP).
For hops thinking Citra and Vic Secret (2-1.5).
Yeast either Conan or 1318.
I don't want this grain bill to be overly complicated.
I'm skeptical about using Golden Naked Oats in this style, mainly because I want a very light color. Maybe split GP and GNO?
Thoughts?
If you want simplicity, then go 50/50 Pilsner/malted oats. I don’t see the appeal of GNO as they’re a crystal malt. Not a fan of caramel in my IPAs.
 

Dryyourbeers

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You are missing something. The malting process develops the enzymes needed for starch conversion during the mash. Oat malt has gone through this process.

See:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00487.x

Good oat primer from Janish:
http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

i thought that didn’t happening when malting oats. I use this chart as a reference and it lists all oat types (including malted) as having 0 diastatic power. Is it wrong?
 

Cathedral

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Just wanted to drop in and say I took this recipe and bastardized it to make a Red ale, because that's what I was craving at the time. It's cold crashing now; I'm kegging it tomorrow so it's ready for the weekend. I'll post pictures when it's done, just for sharts and gaggles.
Well, kegged this and, uh. My final gravity was at 1.035 (!!!!!!!) so I must have had a stalled fermentation. Thankfully it was only a 1-gallon test batch. It was actually good, just very very sweet and the mouthfeel was too slick and viscous. I'm hoping the CO2 will help add a litter bit of bite to take the edge off, otherwise I'm tossing it and refining the recipe.
 

TravelingLight

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I brew this on 2/8:

49% Pils
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat
Hops: Vic Secret, Citra, Bru-1; all whirlpool, DDH, and a keg hop
Yeast: Voss Kveik
Kegged 2/13

Hopefully I can update this post with a picture. I was wanting to get one with some good outdoor lighting, but it's been rainy and dreary here all week. This one probably has the best body and mouthfeel of any NEIPA I've done yet. My only complaint is the color. I'd like to lighten it up some. Looking at that grist, you'd think it would be very light. But it's still got this darker opaqueness to it that I don't like. I've been in a color slump lately. I'll probably drop the raw wheat next time because I don't think it's doing much and is adding some color. IME with these beers, and I love them so I've brewed a ton of them, there's this window on the color spectrum that I hate. As absolutely light in color as possible, like sub-4 SRM, and you're good. Or if you take it a little darker and get the right ratio of small percentages of higher lovibond malts, and you get that beautiful almost neon orange Sunny D look. But in between those two ends of the spectrum you run the risk of it looking like dirty dish water. That's my experience. And lately I've been whiffing on color. I'll try and upload a pic of this one later.

ETA: I also missed my OG 7 points low because I had a brain fart and didn't tighten the gap on my mill for the oats. Lesson learned.
 

beervoid

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I brew this on 2/8:

49% Pils
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat
Hops: Vic Secret, Citra, Bru-1; all whirlpool, DDH, and a keg hop
Yeast: Voss Kveik
Kegged 2/13

Hopefully I can update this post with a picture. I was wanting to get one with some good outdoor lighting, but it's been rainy and dreary here all week. This one probably has the best body and mouthfeel of any NEIPA I've done yet. My only complaint is the color. I'd like to lighten it up some. Looking at that grist, you'd think it would be very light. But it's still got this darker opaqueness to it that I don't like. I've been in a color slump lately. I'll probably drop the raw wheat next time because I don't think it's doing much and is adding some color. IME with these beers, and I love them so I've brewed a ton of them, there's this window on the color spectrum that I hate. As absolutely light in color as possible, like sub-4 SRM, and you're good. Or if you take it a little darker and get the right ratio of small percentages of higher lovibond malts, and you get that beautiful almost neon orange Sunny D look. But in between those two ends of the spectrum you run the risk of it looking like dirty dish water. That's my experience. And lately I've been whiffing on color. I'll try and upload a pic of this one later.

ETA: I also missed my OG 7 points low because I had a brain fart and didn't tighten the gap on my mill for the oats. Lesson learned.
What kind of ebc/srm did you calculate on your bill?
It doesnt seem like this would be murky.
I've had beers in the 6.5srm range that still had a nice deep orange glow.
The murk might go as it clears up a little. Also the wideness of your glass and light play a big role.
 

skibb

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Different yeasts give you different murks - give it a little time to settle (Kveik generally don't like to) and it should brighten up a bit.

Also the raw wheat is probably the lightest SRM grain you have in that bill.
 

Dgallo

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Different yeasts give you different murks - give it a little time to settle (Kveik generally don't like to) and it should brighten up a bit.

Also the raw wheat is probably the lightest SRM grain you have in that bill.
+1

If your looking for orange color I would say you need something with some color. All the grains are 3.5srm or lower.

I use about 3-5 % honey malt to hit a pure orange. You don’t necessarily need to use honey malt but a grain that’s in the 20-30L range
 

brew703

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I brew this on 2/8:

49% Pils
42% Malted Oats
6% White Wheat
3% Raw Wheat
Hops: Vic Secret, Citra, Bru-1; all whirlpool, DDH, and a keg hop
Yeast: Voss Kveik
Kegged 2/13

Hopefully I can update this post with a picture. I was wanting to get one with some good outdoor lighting, but it's been rainy and dreary here all week. This one probably has the best body and mouthfeel of any NEIPA I've done yet. My only complaint is the color. I'd like to lighten it up some. Looking at that grist, you'd think it would be very light. But it's still got this darker opaqueness to it that I don't like. I've been in a color slump lately. I'll probably drop the raw wheat next time because I don't think it's doing much and is adding some color. IME with these beers, and I love them so I've brewed a ton of them, there's this window on the color spectrum that I hate. As absolutely light in color as possible, like sub-4 SRM, and you're good. Or if you take it a little darker and get the right ratio of small percentages of higher lovibond malts, and you get that beautiful almost neon orange Sunny D look. But in between those two ends of the spectrum you run the risk of it looking like dirty dish water. That's my experience. And lately I've been whiffing on color. I'll try and upload a pic of this one later.

ETA: I also missed my OG 7 points low because I had a brain fart and didn't tighten the gap on my mill for the oats. Lesson learned.
What was your water chemistry?
 

TravelingLight

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What kind of ebc/srm did you calculate on your bill?
It doesnt seem like this would be murky.
I've had beers in the 6.5srm range that still had a nice deep orange glow.
The murk might go as it clears up a little. Also the wideness of your glass and light play a big role.
4.2 SRM. I agree, some of my Sunny D bombs have been in the upper 5, lower 6 SRM ranges.

+1

If your looking for orange color I would say you need something with some color. All the grains are 3.5srm or lower.

I use about 3-5 % honey malt to hit a pure orange. You don’t necessarily need to use honey malt but a grain that’s in the 20-30L range
In the past I've hit the orange color with around 2% honey malt and 5% light munich (like 8-10L).

What was your water chemistry?
I've been doing 3:1 chloride:sulfate for a couple years now. This one, however, I added in a small amount (~50ppm) salt in hopes of teasing out a little sweetness to contrast the "juiciness."
 

Dgallo

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In the past I've hit the orange color with around 2% honey malt and 5% light munich (like 8-10L).
Yeah that is mathematically the same Lovibon contribution as 3-5 % honey alone so it would be very similar
 

Dgallo

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Going 100% golden promise also does the trick for me.
That’s odd that you get orange from GP. What maltster do use? I’ve only ever seen it in the 1.2-2.8L. That’s literally straw yellow.
 

Frieds

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I can’t get Malted Oats from any of my LHBS. What’s the difference or benefits of using Malted Oats over supermarket bought Rolled Oats? Is the much difference in taste & mouthfeel?
 

Dgallo

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I can’t get Malted Oats from any of my LHBS. What’s the difference or benefits of using Malted Oats over supermarket bought Rolled Oats? Is the much difference in taste & mouthfeel?
Rolled oats are flaked oats. It’s been discussed quite a bit over the last page or so the pros and cons of using both forms of oats
 

Frieds

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Rolled oats are flaked oats. It’s been discussed quite a bit over the last page or so the pros and cons of using both forms of oats
Cheers. Wasn’t aware they were the same.
 

beervoid

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That’s odd that you get orange from GP. What maltster do use? I’ve only ever seen it in the 1.2-2.8L. That’s literally straw yellow.
Thomas Fawcett, 2.1l to 2.8l
That beer photo I posted the other day in the neipa thread is golden promise / pilsener 50/50 with about 15% adjuncts. And calculated already around 5.1 srm and turning orangish. If you go 100% gp it get even darker.
In my experience if you go above 6.6 ish srm you getting into dark murk territory if you have a good thick haze.
 

Dgallo

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Cheers. Wasn’t aware they were the same.
Sorry I just reread my post to you and it came of kinda brash. I didn’t mean it to come off that way
 

Frieds

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Sorry I just reread my post to you and it came of kinda brash. I didn’t mean it to come off that way
I didn’t take it that way. I’ve interacted with you enough around the message board to know that you’re not like that.
 

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For those who have brewed this style what was your water chemistry?
I'm thinking probably need to increase Na and CI just unsure to what extent.
I'm looking to try hand at this recipe in a couple weeks.
 
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