Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[beervoid]

. I think treehouse used to just not list them as being used so they didn’t give away any secrets but now since everyone is use them and putting it on the can for marketing, they are starting to list it. Shawn Hill talks about a sweet spot % for oats that he uses. I’ll see if I can find the article

My thoughts too. The cat is out of the bag now.
Julius seems pretty clear though when I had it about 4 years ago, compared to the more dense Other Half etc. Never had HF beers. They must be pretty low on wheat/oats

 

[Dgallo]

I think our definitions of “quality” might be different.

They’re releasing what the customer wants or thinks they need most likely cause they’re intelligent businessmen have some sizable goals and ventures that they need to pay offf

They are treehouse, their lhype has already been created. They don’t have don’t have to do anything to their beers for their customers other than brew beer and it will get gobbled up can. They can literally have people line up for hours to get a new release with so much hop burn that you have to wait a month to drink it and 90% of their customer base thinks that’s the status quo. So I don’t think they are adding wheat and oats just for that, they are adding them because they believe it adds quality to their product. Obviously beer discriptions are for marketing but read some of the ones that use oats or wheat, seems like they are pretty positive it has a direct impact on how they drink.

Anyway I don’t want to hijack this thread any longer. The daydream series are oat cream IPAs and Other Half is clearly using a high percented on malted/flaked oats in their grain bill, so obviously people are going to use high amounts themselves if they are trying to model one of their beers after them.

 

[Rainy]

I think our definitions of “quality” might be different.

They’re releasing what the customer wants or thinks they need most likely cause they’re intelligent businessmen have some sizable goals and ventures that they need to pay off.

It’s not just water. You can create a soft, full texture that isn’t thick or cloying or hard to drink more than one of with water chemistry, specific mashing regimes, natural carbonation, etc. And the best part is the beer doesn’t taste like it has a bunch of wheat or oats in it.

Would hoch kurz mashing get you there?

 

[Dryyourbeers]

I’m a huge fan of the OH daydreams. Recently tried 40% oats (mix of flaked and malted) and personally found it absolutely delicious - best beer I’ve brewed. Just did a new batch yesterday with 50% oats (all malted). I use grainfather and have never had any issue with the sparge (mash has always gone smoothly too, albeit the efficiency is hit a little by all the oats).

Yesterday couldn’t have gone smoother and, as I say, it contained 50% malted oats. Mash efficiency was actually better than when I used 40% too, as I stirred halfway through mashing.

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Can I get some opinions/insight on flaked oats pls?

Do people see them as having any advantages versus malted (other than being cheaper)? I’ve never read of any but feel like there must be, as they are so universally used. Malted oats create less issues with sparging and there is some evidence they might lower the risk of oxidation (compared to flaked oats). So why use flaked at all?

 

[Dgallo]

Can I get some opinions/insight on flaked oats pls?

Do people see them as having any advantages versus malted (other than being cheaper)? I’ve never read of any but feel like there must be, as they are so universally used. Malted oats create less issues with sparging and there is some evidence they might lower the risk of oxidation (compared to flaked oats). So why use flaked at all?

All flaked adjusts are unmalted, meaning they aren’t being forced to germinate like the malted grains are. Germination provides the grains with the enzymes needed to convert their strarches into sugars.

During the malting process proteins chains get modified and brake down into smaller chains, beta-glutansbaltered and deteriorate during malting. Since Protein and beta-glucans contributes to the body of the beer and overall mouthfeel, brewers choose to use flaked grains so that the they are fully intact. Also even though these flaked grains do not have their own diastic power, (the enzymes) their starches will still get converted in to sugars due to the enzymes gain in the mash from the basemalts.

This is why when Other Half is using a huge oat grainbill, they use at least 30% malted oats so that they get enough enzymes in the mash to convert all the startches. Then they use some flaked oats to aid the mouthfeel.

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Interesting and thanks for going into to so much detail. I understood the sugars in flaked malts to also be easy accessible though as a result in the flaking process. See below from Brülosophy. Are you saying this is incorrect? Or is it still correct? I.e. they are easily accessible but require the enzymes from the base malts.

And why does this all mean flaked oats would better aid mouthfeel? Is it because they contribute more unconverted starches than malted oats?


Oats are available in various forms– whole, steel cut, flaked, and malted. Whereas whole and steel cut oats require a cereal mash, flaked and malted oats can be added directly to the mash because their sugars have been made easily accessible by the flaking and malting process, making them more appealing to many brewers.

 

[Dryyourbeers]

All flaked adjusts are unmalted, meaning they aren’t being forced to germinate like the malted grains are. Germination provides the grains with the enzymes needed to convert their strarches into sugars.

During the malting process proteins chains get modified and brake down into smaller chains, beta-glutansbaltered and deteriorate during malting. Since Protein and beta-glucans contributes to the body of the beer and overall mouthfeel, brewers choose to use flaked grains so that the they are fully intact. Also even though these flaked grains do not have their own diastic power, (the enzymes) their starches will still get converted in to sugars due to the enzymes gain in the mash from the basemalts.

This is why when Other Half is using a huge oat grainbill, they use at least 30% malted oats so that they get enough enzymes in the mash to convert all the startches. Then they use some flaked oats to aid the mouthfeel.

thanks - replied above but forgot to tag

 

[Dgallo]

Interesting and thanks for going into to so much detail. I understood the sugars in flaked malts to also be easy accessible though as a result in the flaking process. See below from Brülosophy. Are you saying this is incorrect? Or is it still correct? I.e. they are easily accessible but require the enzymes from the base malts.

And why does this all mean flaked oats would better aid mouthfeel? Is it because they contribute more unconverted starches than malted oats?


Oats are available in various forms– whole, steel cut, flaked, and malted. Whereas whole and steel cut oats require a cereal mash, flaked and malted oats can be added directly to the mash because their sugars have been made easily accessible by the flaking and malting process, making them more appealing to many brewers.

Though I appreciate what brulosophy does, he is not a research scientist and his “studies” results are from a very low sample size. Though Scott Janish is also not a research scientist, he references many academic studies with in his own work. Here is a quick little article on oats in general but in the first portion on the article he goes in to why Flaked oat specifically benefit the mouthfeel. Anywhere he states unmalted oats you can think flaked oats http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Though I appreciate what brulosophy does, he is not a research scientist and his “studies” results are from a very low sample size. Though Scott Janish is also not a research scientist, he references many academic studies with in his own work. Here is a quick little article on oats in general but in the first portion on the article he goes in to why Flaked oat specifically benefit the mouthfeel. Anywhere he states unmalted oats you can think flaked oats http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

You’re a hero! Yeah, big fan of Janish read his book with great interest but I don’t remember this comparison of the different types of oat. Much appreciated

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Though I appreciate what brulosophy does, he is not a research scientist and his “studies” results are from a very low sample size. Though Scott Janish is also not a research scientist, he references many academic studies with in his own work. Here is a quick little article on oats in general but in the first portion on the article he goes in to why Flaked oat specifically benefit the mouthfeel. Anywhere he states unmalted oats you can think flaked oats http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Ah, I remember reading this now actually. This was one of the first articles that made me doubt if flaked oats were worth using instead of malted oats. Janish is talking about unflaked oats when he says ‘raw oats’. He comments on how the flaking process gelatinising the oats. So this makes me wonder again, if the flaked oats are already gelatinised then will they actually benefit mouthfeel over malted oats? If not, I would prefer to use all malted as their easier to work with. But i could well be missing something.

i’ve never used what Janish describes as raw oats. Perhaps a combination of these raw (rather than flaked) oats with malted oats could be the way to go?

 

[Dgallo]

Ah, I remember reading this now actually. This was one of the first articles that made me doubt if flaked oats were worth using instead of malted oats. Janish is talking about unflaked oats when he says ‘raw oats’. He comments on how the flaking process gelatinising the oats. So this makes me wonder again, if the flaked oats are already gelatinised then will they actually benefit mouthfeel over malted oats? If not, I would prefer to use all malted as their easier to work with. But i could well be missing something.

i’ve never used what Janish describes as raw oats. Perhaps a combination of these raw (rather than flaked) oats with malted oats could be the way to go?

I personally enjoy the combination of malted oats and flaked wheat or barely. I believe I see a difference when using flaked adjust at 10-20%

 

[yungguanyu]

Posting for a bit of general advice on the style. Anything of the proper "oatcream" style is very difficult to get here, the closest we have had was this (and it was real damn good):

https://untappd.com/b/garage-project-no-dreams-til-brooklyn-hapi-sessions-vol-3-other-half/3227482

I am interested in giving something similar a go, now that i have got my process pretty bedded down for regular NEIPAs (closed transfers to keg, pressurised cold crash, etc).

So from what i can tell, i should be increasing the oats on my base recipe to somewhere in the wide 20-50% range, as well as including some malted oats? Then also adding in some lactose? I assume i can stay with my usual NEIPA dryhop schedule, water chem and yeast (LIII).

Is it as "simple" as this, or am i missing something?

Cheers all

 

[sicktght311]

Posting for a bit of general advice on the style. Anything of the proper "oatcream" style is very difficult to get here, the closest we have had was this (and it was real damn good):

https://untappd.com/b/garage-project-no-dreams-til-brooklyn-hapi-sessions-vol-3-other-half/3227482

I am interested in giving something similar a go, now that i have got my process pretty bedded down for regular NEIPAs (closed transfers to keg, pressurised cold crash, etc).

So from what i can tell, i should be increasing the oats on my base recipe to somewhere in the wide 20-50% range, as well as including some malted oats? Then also adding in some lactose? I assume i can stay with my usual NEIPA dryhop schedule, water chem and yeast (LIII).

Is it as "simple" as this, or am i missing something?

Cheers all

Pretty much. Just a NEIPA with a much thicker fuller mouthfeel.

 

[Dgallo]

Just tapped my latest beer based off the Day Dream series. This is a Triple NEIPA brewed with Riwaka, Nelson, Citra, and Columbus sitting at 10.5% abv. Used 15% Flaked oat and 15% malted white wheat which I actually prefer over strictly oats. Very happy with it

 

[isomerization]

Just tapped my latest beer based off the Day Dream series. This is a Triple NEIPA brewed with Riwaka, Nelson, Citra, and Columbus sitting at 10.5% abv. Used 15% Flaked oat and 15% malted white wheat which I actually prefer over strictly oats. Very happy with it View attachment 663174

Where do you like your FG to end up with a triple?

 

[Dgallo]

Where do you like your FG to end up with a triple?

I’m at 1.019 now without lactose and the body is big. I degassed 2 equilibrium TIPAS and no lactose was 1.022 and lactose was 1.029 but after I finished mine, I have a feeling I didn’t degas them enough and should have went through coffee filters. At 1.019 it’s kinda soft but not as soft as my singles at 1.012 or doubles 1.014/16. I’m thinking it might be better to use lower mash temp and grain bill to still keep it in the triple range but have it finish a bit lower.

 

[isomerization]

I’m at 1.019 now without lactose and the body is big. I degassed 2 equilibrium TIPAS and no lactose was 1.022 and lactose was 1.029 but after I finished mine, I have a feeling I didn’t degas them enough and sound have went through coffee filters. At 1.019 it’s kinda soft but not as soft as my singles at 1.012 or dunbles 1.014/16. I’m thinking it might be better to use palm ash temp and grain Choice to still have to finish around 1.016

That’s still some heavy attenuation though! Looks like you’re around 80% for your triple (guessing 1.100 OG). Is that with A24, I don’t think I ever get LA3 that low without simple sugars.

Bear in mind I’ve never had an oat cream style beer before, but based on the description, I imagined it as bittered the same as a NE IPA, but with a lower attenuation to amp up the sweetness/mouthfeel. Whether lactose is needed or not, can’t say.

 

[Dgallo]

That’s still some heavy attenuation though! Looks like you’re around 80% for your triple (guessing 1.100 OG). Is that with A24, I don’t think I ever get LA3 that low without simple sugars.

Bear in mind I’ve never had an oat cream style beer before, but based on the description, I imagined it as bittered the same as a NE IPA, but with a lower attenuation to amp up the sweetness/mouthfeel. Whether lactose is needed or not, can’t say.

Just reread my original post to you. May of had a pint too many since it was kinda jumbled. That’s 10.5% for you lol.

A24 1.098-1.018. Was aiming for a 10% on the dot but was afraid of finishing above 1.022 so I used 5% dextrose to keep me right around it but A24 went even further.

 

[beervoid]

Just tapped my latest beer based off the Day Dream series. This is a Triple NEIPA brewed with Riwaka, Nelson, Citra, and Columbus sitting at 10.5% abv. Used 15% Flaked oat and 15% malted white wheat which I actually prefer over strictly oats. Very happy with it View attachment 663174

Looks tasty! How much hops did you put in there?

 

[yungguanyu]

Just tapped my latest beer based off the Day Dream series. This is a Triple NEIPA brewed with Riwaka, Nelson, Citra, and Columbus sitting at 10.5% abv. Used 15% Flaked oat and 15% malted white wheat which I actually prefer over strictly oats. Very happy with it

Out of my own interest, is that 10.5% purely grain or did you add (fermentable) sugar? Looks like a bloody impressive beer.

Edit: okay, i realised how dumb writing fermantable sugar in that sentence was as soon as i posted it. What i mean was added dextrose in the boil etc

 

[Dgallo]

Looks tasty! How much hops did you put in there?

Thanks man. 14 oz in total

 

[Dgallo]

Out of my own interest, is that 10.5% purely grain or did you add (fermentable) sugar? Looks like a bloody impressive beer.

Edit: okay, i realised how dumb writing fermantable sugar in that sentence was as soon as i posted it. What i mean was added dextrose in the boil etc

22lbs of grain and 1lb of dextrose

 

[beervoid]

Thanks man. 14 oz in total

5 gallons? How much for dry hop?
Did you feel the higher abv can carry more?

 

[Dgallo]

5 gallons? How much for dry hop?
Did you feel the higher abv can carry more?

Yeah 5 gallon. It was an 8 oz dryhop which is 2 oz more than my usual max. I can’t say it with 100% certainty that they can take larger charges but for sure they can take higher ibus. This has mid 70s from hotside and it doesn’t stand out, just balances the larger grainbill. I will say it was a very short dryhop period for so much material. First round went in 3 days left til cold crashing. The second went in the next day. Tasted it and was amazed how quickly they extracted for a 56*f dryhop temp. I believe the high abv helped and there’s absolutely no hop burn. There is still a touch of alcohol on the nose so I’ll report back in 2 weeks after it conditioned some

 

[TravelingLight]

My next batch is actually going to be something similar:

50% two-row
25% malted oats
25% flaked oats
1 lb lactose

Hops will be a blend of Motueka, Riwaka, Nelson, Galaxy and Enigma (16 oz in 6 gal).

1318 fermented cool

No idea what to expect, but thats part of the fun

Did you brew this yet? After being in a NEIPA color slump the last few beers, I'm planning to try an entirely different grain bill, and was strongly considering 50% oats (flaked and malted) but haven't yet decided on the lactose. Super curious how this turned out if you've brewed it yet!

 

[isomerization]

Did you brew this yet? After being in a NEIPA color slump the last few beers, I'm planning to try an entirely different grain bill, and was strongly considering 50% oats (flaked and malted) but haven't yet decided on the lactose. Super curious how this turned out if you've brewed it yet!

My brewclub dropped a Clone Wars in my lap (Oskar Blues Ten Fidy) for mid March, so I had to bump that to top of the list. Looking at weekend after the SB for this brew now. Will share pics and stickiness of mash (looking at 25% malted and flaked each).

Anyone ever toast flaked oats in the oven? Good or bad idea for an IPA, versus say an oatmeal stout?

 

[Dryyourbeers]

My brewclub dropped a Clone Wars in my lap (Oskar Blues Ten Fidy) for mid March, so I had to bump that to top of the list. Looking at weekend after the SB for this brew now. Will share pics and stickiness of mash (looking at 25% malted and flaked each).

Anyone ever toast flaked oats in the oven? Good or bad idea for an IPA, versus say an oatmeal stout?

i’ve just done 50% oats - all malted - and I upped the lactose. The mouthfeel is by far the best I’ve had. And that’s despite it being the lowest ABV NEIPA I’ve done - 4.5%. Defo better than when I’ve had part flaked and part malted, but increased lactose could be the reason.

i’ve still not seen anything scientific to support this popular notion that flaked will have any advantage over malted when it comes to mouthfeel. So, particularly after this beer, I’m struggling to make a case (other than cost) for not going all malted. It reduces oxidation risk too.

 

[sicktght311]

Just brewed another test version of my Oat Cream IPA yesterday. Will see how it turns out. It was a "Kitchen Sink" IPA since i needed to get rid of some hops

5 Gallon batch (6 gallons into fermenter)
10lbs 2-row
3lbs Flaked Oats
1lb White Wheat Malt
1lb Flaked Wheat
1lb Lactose

Mash at 152 for 6 mins
1 packet S04 yeast at 66 degrees

1.070og (1.023 expected fg)

.5oz Mosaic at 60
.5oz Mosaic, 1oz HBC342, 2oz Cascade, 2oz Amarillo 30 minute whirlpool at 160
2oz Amarillo, 1oz Comet, 1oz HBC341 at day 2
2oz Amarillo, 2oz Comet, 2oz Cascade at day 5 or 6

Cold crash at day 7, kegged by day 9

I milled a bit coarser to avoid a stuck mash/sparge and i had no problems. Flow was great and the brew day overall was seamless. Hit my numbers exact

 

[isomerization]

i’ve just done 50% oats - all malted - and I upped the lactose. The mouthfeel is by far the best I’ve had. And that’s despite it being the lowest ABV NEIPA I’ve done - 4.5%. Defo better than when I’ve had part flaked and part malted, but increased lactose could be the reason.

i’ve still not seen anything scientific to support this popular notion that flaked will have any advantage over malted when it comes to mouthfeel. So, particularly after this beer, I’m struggling to make a case (other than cost) for not going all malted. It reduces oxidation risk too.

Purely cost and ease of access. Can get flaked oats from Aldi for less than $1/lb versus buying from an online vendor at $2+/lb.