Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[benco]

Brewing this right now and had a couple of questions if anyone can help. I’m using 22.2% alpha Cryo Hops, should I cut these amounts in half. Ibu is 38 before I cut in half. Also my beersmith is showing about 8% abv which seems off. Any thoughts? Thanks

It’s been done for a couple of weeks. I did burst carb for two days at about 30. I missed the whirlpool hops! Still has 6 oz of cryo hops. Taste great, doesn’t look like OP. Taste of OJ and a little sweet. Mouthfeel is great, not slick or bitter. Its a great beer. I like the Vermont yeast.

 

[smalloy88]

I brew every once in a while with some guys in the industry who have given me subtle hints about different brewery secrets.

Things I've learned about Other Half:

Their house yeast strain is a 2:1 co-pitch of S04:US05. They add more US05 to later generations, but some other breweries let the S04 take over. I've heard Monkish and Tired Hands use something similar. I'm not sure whether they use this in their daydream series, but it'd be worth an experiment. I, personally, think LA3 works great with this style.

They use upwards of 50% oats in the daydream beers. I've done IPAs with 20% flaked oats and 20% malted oats (40% total) and had great success.

They use oat milk in these beers.

Personal Opinions:
I think they only use cryo hops in the ddh versions of these beers. I dry hop in the fermenter with pellets and then dry hop in the serving keg with cryo.

I think the key is finding the right portion of flaked oats, malted oats, and oat milk in the grain bill.

I don't think any more than a half pound of lactose per 5 gallons should be used. OH stresses they use a "little bit of lactose" in these beers. Too much lactose will make the beer too sugary sweet and not creamy sweet. I think the cream comes from the oats and oat milk.

I am going to attempt this style in the next few weeks and report back how it goes.

Here's my last recipe that turned out great:
Water:
Ca 100
SO4 100
Cl 150
pH 5.2

4# 2-row
4# Maris Otter
3# Fawcett Oat
3# Flaked Oat
1# Carafoam
0.25# Acid Malt

Mash @ 152

OG 1073
FG 1018
IBU ~40

London Ale III

1.5 oz CTZ 20 min
0.5# lactose 10 min

Whirlpool (30 min @ 165 degF)
2 oz Mosaic
2 oz Citra
1 oz CTZ

Dry Hop (day 3)
4 oz Mosaic
2 oz Mosaic Lupulin

Dry Hop (serving keg)
1 oz Mosaic Lupulin

This is the 5 gallon version. I actually brewed 10 gallons and split the batch into two fermenters. The second fermenter had the same dry hop schedule with Citra instead of Mosaic. I plan on doing something similar, except bumping up the oats slightly and adding oat milk. I also might take CTZ out of the whirlpool addition and use a mix of hops in the dry hops instead of one single hop.

 

[skibb]

Their house yeast strain is a 2:1 co-pitch of S04:US05. They add more US05 to later generations, but some other breweries let the S04 take over. I've heard Monkish and Tired Hands use something similar. I'm not sure whether they use this in their daydream series, but it'd be worth an experiment. I, personally, think LA3 works great with this style.

Very interesting - curious what your source is?

I personally get zero SO-4 yeast character out of their IPAs - their beers are very clean. In my experience SO-4, even when pitched/fermented lower at 62 or 64, still gets quite estery. I get a lot of bazooka bubblegum out of it, which I taste in a lot of TH beers, and they seemingly use SO-4 as a major portion of their blend.

 

[smalloy88]

Very interesting - curious what your source is?

I personally get zero SO-4 yeast character out of their IPAs - their beers are very clean. In my experience SO-4, even when pitched/fermented lower at 62 or 64, still gets quite estery. I get a lot of bazooka bubblegum out of it, which I taste in a lot of TH beers, and they seemingly use SO-4 as a major portion of their blend.

I found it hard to believe as well, but apparently this brewer has chatted with Henry (Monkish) and Jean(TH) and they all use similar blends as their house strain. I still don't know if they use this house strain in the daydreams, though. Take it for what it's worth, too; They could just be throwing BS to keep people at bay. I agree with your description of S04, I haven't ever co-pitched it though. I know Treehouse yeast has been isolated and shown to be a blend of S04 with a little bit of other strains. Can't find the article but I remember it was something like 90% S04 then two other strains to make up the other 10%.

 

[Mer-man]

Yeesh, but who has a good Half Acre clone?

 

[beervoid]

I found it hard to believe as well, but apparently this brewer has chatted with Henry (Monkish) and Jean(TH) and they all use similar blends as their house strain. I still don't know if they use this house strain in the daydreams, though. Take it for what it's worth, too; They could just be throwing BS to keep people at bay. I agree with your description of S04, I haven't ever co-pitched it though. I know Treehouse yeast has been isolated and shown to be a blend of S04 with a little bit of other strains. Can't find the article but I remember it was something like 90% S04 then two other strains to make up the other 10%.

If you go to the other half website some of their beers have yeast choice stated as "vermont" yeast so I highly doubt they are using the blend suggested

https://otherhalfbrewing.com/beers/?fwp_ingredient_other_ingredients=vermont-yeast

 

[cheesebach]

If you go to the other half website some of their beers have yeast choice stated as "vermont" yeast so I highly doubt they are using the blend suggested

https://otherhalfbrewing.com/beers/?fwp_ingredient_other_ingredients=vermont-yeast

Maybe playing a bit of devils advocate here, but wouldn’t that imply that the beers that don’t list Vermont yeast are likely using something else? I would tend to agree though that S-04/US-05 doesn’t seem to fit with the flavor profile I get from Other Half. With Toppling Goliath and Treehouse beers, I pick up the S04 character pretty clearly.

 

[beervoid]

Maybe playing a bit of devils advocate here, but wouldn’t that imply that the beers that don’t list Vermont yeast are likely using something else? I would tend to agree though that S-04/US-05 doesn’t seem to fit with the flavor profile I get from Other Half. With Toppling Goliath and Treehouse beers, I pick up the S04 character pretty clearly.

True, worth a try out. They are tight in space so maintaining several yeasts would probably be hard for them so perhaps they mix dry yeasts to get some variety.

Vermont gives that peachy ester. Us05 gives peach like esters on lower temps. s04 for british character... Coincidence?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I did a tour there and if I remember correctly they said they use Imperial's Joystick or something like that for their house strain... Daydreams are "vermont" yeast based on their old IG posts. When I brewed this with barbarian it definitely had that OH type flavor to it. Not exactly the same, but way closer than I've come with 1318 or S04 or Juice.

Maybe the S04 and US-05 copitch was earlier OH days.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Very interesting - curious what your source is?

I personally get zero SO-4 yeast character out of their IPAs - their beers are very clean. In my experience SO-4, even when pitched/fermented lower at 62 or 64, still gets quite estery. I get a lot of bazooka bubblegum out of it, which I taste in a lot of TH beers, and they seemingly use SO-4 as a major portion of their blend.

What kind of pitching/fermentation schedule gives you the most bubblegum character?

 

[skibb]

I pitch 2 500g Bricks for 405 gallons. Rehydrated and start ferm off at 64F. Let free rise to 66F. At about 2 plato before terminal I will do my bio DH and up FV setpoint to 72 for D rest (this is usually day 3ish)

 

[deadwolfbones]

I did no-boil NEIPA recently with 100% SO4 and definitely got the bubblegum. 66F the whole time.

 

[madscientist451]

Did a little searching on google and came up with this:

Thanks to HomebrewTalk forum user Isomerization running some pretty awesome DNA tests on yeasts and dregs from Treehouse cans, we have a pretty solid idea of what different yeasts are in each of the Treehouse core offerings. The trick now is ratios and esters. I chose to do this:
Day 1 – S04/T58/WB06:92%/5%/3% – pitch all day 1 at regular pitching temp 72º
Day 2 – reduce temperature to 64º
Day 8 – raise temp to 70* and dry hop
Day 10 – cold crash for 2 days and keg or bottle

Source:https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/

 

[SanPancho]

I pitch 2 500g Bricks for 405 gallons. Rehydrated and start ferm off at 64F. Let free rise to 66F. At about 2 plato before terminal I will do my bio DH and up FV setpoint to 72 for D rest (this is usually day 3ish)

You find there’s enough heat to get itself up to 72 on its own with only 2P left? I feel like we dont manage to get that much of a climb at the tail end. Ambient is usually mid 60s tho.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I think pretty much every Tree House ipa that I’ve had was well carbonated. I’m still under the impression that mouthfeel is a result of grain bill, water chemistry, and hop oils.

I agree here. TH has comedic looking head on their beers if you pour properly. I think they're well carbonated but done so in a way that makes it soft. Likely natural carbonation. I know other half does not carbonate naturally - they carb in a brite tank over the course of a day or so according to the tour I took a few months back. Other Half beers are still soft though.

There is more than one way to skin a cat! Let us know how it comes out. I've tried the lower carbing and have had some good results.

 

[cpham574]

Did a little searching on google and came up with this:

Thanks to HomebrewTalk forum user Isomerization running some pretty awesome DNA tests on yeasts and dregs from Treehouse cans, we have a pretty solid idea of what different yeasts are in each of the Treehouse core offerings. The trick now is ratios and esters. I chose to do this:
Day 1 – S04/T58/WB06:92%/5%/3% – pitch all day 1 at regular pitching temp 72º
Day 2 – reduce temperature to 64º
Day 8 – raise temp to 70* and dry hop
Day 10 – cold crash for 2 days and keg or bottle

Source:https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/

How does one go about measuring 92%/5%/3% in terms of grams? Also, is a starter needed?

 

[cpham574]

Sorry, I did try it, but my buddy ended up overcarbing the keg. It was also super green because it had only been kegged 6 days prior. So it was difficult to tell if the water made any improvement. I'll be brewing my own this Wednesday and will report back once it's done and carbed properly. IF the water makes an improvement it will probably only be noticed in a regular NEIPA with no lactose or any other flavoring. I'll be brewing a regular NEIPA with all Cashmere.

Any update?

 

[BeerFst]

https://www.neonraptorbrewingco.com/raptorblog/romulus-and-remus/

a very similar experiment was just posted to r/homebrewing, but I'm still curious to hear your results as well

 

[madscientist451]

How does one go about measuring 92%/5%/3% in terms of grams? Also, is a starter needed?

I'd use a whole pack of So4, which is 11.5 G and do the math for the other amounts.
I can't remember much from algebra class, so I used a percentage calculator found here:
https://www.calculator.net/percent-calculator.html

So if you use a whole pack of So4, which is 11.5 g, the total amount of yeast used will be 12.5 g
use .625g of T58
and .375g of WB06

I'm going to try it soon. Anyone have any other yeast combinations for this type of beer?

 

[Dgallo]

So getting back to the OP I too took my own stab at a dreamwave base clone. Had some great success with mouthfeel and body. I went with 30% malted oat and 10% flaked barley, 2% honey and the rest Pilsner. Def needs more tweaking but malted oats is the direction to go in my opinion if youre trying to imitate an Oat Cream NEIPA.

 

[beervoid]

Does anyone here have access to Other Half and wants to waste some of their awsome beer to do a final gravity reading?
It seems there are quiet some different opinions out there on the FG of these beers.
Tree House has meassured at 1.015 that I know.
Some brewers claim an fg of 1.019 or higher is way too much for DIPA's, some like it.
Would be interesting to get some FG's on Other Half stuff.

 

[Spin711]

Does anyone here have access to Other Half and wants to waste some of their awsome beer to do a final gravity reading?
It seems there are quiet some different opinions out there on the FG of these beers.
Tree House has meassured at 1.015 that I know.
Some brewers claim an fg of 1.019 or higher is way too much for DIPA's, some like it.
Would be interesting to get some FG's on Other Half stuff.

I can take some this week and weekend

 

[beervoid]

I can take some this week and weekend

That would be great info, thanks!.
Looking forward, keep us posted.

 

[skibb]

Keep in mind - beers of this style with lots of DH (and sometimes bio DH) tend to be more effected by hop creep and FG can vary by a few SG units from batch to batch.

 

[Dgallo]

Keep in mind - beers of this style with lots of DH (and sometimes bio DH) tend to be more effected by hop creep and FG can vary by a few SG units from batch to batch.

Bio hopping would have zero effect on hop creep, the yeast would clean itself up by the time you packaged. I’ve seen very few quality breweries that massively Dh, such as Other Half, ever have a diacetyl creep in their packaged beers

 

[skibb]

I have brewed about 40,000 gallons of beer that would beg to differ. We only see hop creep when DH during active fermentation. The more yeast active and in solution, the more opportunities you have for them to eat up the newly available sugars from hop enzymes.

 

[beervoid]

Keep in mind - beers of this style with lots of DH (and sometimes bio DH) tend to be more effected by hop creep and FG can vary by a few SG units from batch to batch.

I would suppose they would control this as they aim to make consistent beers. One can anticipate on the extra drop.
Having sad that, I've had dipa finish as high as 1.020 and as low as 1.015 and couldnt tell the difference.

 

[TBryerton]

Does anyone here have access to Other Half and wants to waste some of their awsome beer to do a final gravity reading?
It seems there are quiet some different opinions out there on the FG of these beers.
Tree House has meassured at 1.015 that I know.
Some brewers claim an fg of 1.019 or higher is way too much for DIPA's, some like it.
Would be interesting to get some FG's on Other Half stuff.

Triple Citra showing 1.020

 

[beervoid]

Triple Citra showing 1.020

Wow thats high for a high gravity beer!
Did you meassure at room temp after de-carbing the sample with an hydrometer?

 

[skibb]

I would suppose they would control this as they aim to make consistent beers.

You say that so nonchalantly; If you could answer how to do this, you could give a talk at CBC and it would probably be the most well attended, no joke. It is one of the hottest topics in recent years - there could easily be a whole other thread about controlling the hop creep and consistency.

We force ferment every batch of NE/hazy IPA we brew, and regularly see that bio dry hopped ones finish anywhere from 1-3 SG points lower. The biggest contributing factor we've noticed is sourcing of the hop crop. Generally, hops from the same lots have much less FG variance between brews.

This proves problematic for the vast majority of breweries out there, as contracts are lean if exist at all, and the majority of our hops come from various sources on the secondary market. OH is definitely big enough to have some hefty contracts, but I would be surprised if all of their hops come from them.

/end off-topic hop creep info

 

[Dgallo]

You say that so nonchalantly; If you could answer how to do this, you could give a talk at CBC and it would probably be the most well attended, no joke. It is one of the hottest topics in recent years - there could easily be a whole other thread about controlling the hop creep and consistency.

We force ferment every batch of NE/hazy IPA we brew, and regularly see that bio dry hopped ones finish anywhere from 1-3 SG points lower. The biggest contributing factor we've noticed is sourcing of the hop crop. Generally, hops from the same lots have much less FG variance between brews.

This proves problematic for the vast majority of breweries out there, as contracts are lean if exist at all, and the majority of our hops come from various sources on the secondary market. OH is definitely big enough to have some hefty contracts, but I would be surprised if all of their hops come from them.

/end off-topic hop creep info

I’m not denying your experience, but it seems odd that bio hopping, is causing your creep. There is plenty of yeast available after fermentation, even if you soft crash to drop most of the yeast before dryhoping, so you should be dropping those points if the maltrose is being broken down by enzymes from the hops. Luckily you can account for over attention in your recipe. The bigger problem with the creep is the formation of VDK and acetaldehyde. To combat this, I know breweries, such as sloop who I got this info from, are soft crashing to mid/upper 50s to drop yeast, (sometimes even lower based on the strain) and to make them much less active and dryhoping there since it’s still warm enough for extraction. Kills two birds one stone, prevents creep and drops yeast prior to dryhoping so the yeast stripping doesn’t occur

 

[TBryerton]

Wow thats high for a high gravity beer!
Did you meassure at room temp after de-carbing the sample with an hydrometer?

Yes. Poured from glass to glass for awhile and then let it sit overnight. Keep in mind the triple certainly felt thicker than their other beers

 

[Dgallo]

Yes. Poured from glass to glass for awhile and then let it sit overnight. Keep in mind the triple certainly felt thicker than their other beers

Most high gravity doubles and triples IPAs will have a FG OF 1.018-1.020. They’re mashing 154-156 or step mashing for beta and alpha analyse, so I’m not surprised at all. Higher og with purely gain, not adding sugar = more unfermentable sugars from those grains

 

[TBryerton]

Most high gravity doubles and triples IPAs will have a FG OF 1.018-1.020. They’re mashing 154-156 or step mashing for beta and alpha analyse, so I’m not surprised at all. Higher og with purely gain, not adding sugar = more unfermentable sugars from those grains

Taste perception is thicker than other triples I’ve had. The veil / Omnipollo triple I had doesn’t display the abv prominately and it wasn’t until someone pointed it out that I realized it was 11%. Explained why I was slurring my words

 

[skibb]

I’m not denying your experience, but it seems odd that bio hopping, is causing your creep. There is plenty of yeast available after fermentation, even if you soft crash to drop most of the yeast before dryhoping, so you should be dropping those points if the maltrose is being broken down by enzymes from the hops. Luckily you can account for over attention in your recipe. The bigger problem with the creep is the formation of VDK and acetaldehyde. To combat this, I know breweries, such as sloop who I got this info from, are soft crashing to mid/upper 50s to drop yeast and to make them much less active and dryhoping there since it’s still warm enough for extraction. Kills two birds one stone, prevents creep and drops yeast prior to dryhoping so the yeast stripping doesn’t occur

I agree, there is usually plenty of yeast, especially when using a medium/low flocculating strain (I use a high floccing English one) in solution - though they are not very active and generally creep is very low to nil. You are right, the bigger concern in this situation is VDK/diacetyl, as the yeast can be active enough to start metabolizing newly available sugars but may not finish. This is partly the reason why we DH the way we do at my brewery and what yeast we choose to use.

It doesn't seem odd to me at all that my creep is happening early and fast, I have a ton of active yeast in solution. Lots of agitation. Luckily, this also reduces my chances of developing diacetyl (only time we detect it is ~24 of 1st DH), because my yeast are chugging along.

Like I said, don't be surprised if when you degas your favorite hazy IPA, the FG varies slightly between batches. Every breweries techniques differ, some may be better than others, but with such heavy DH rates you see these days in his particular style, we all deal with a little creep from time to time.

 

[beervoid]

You say that so nonchalantly; If you could answer how to do this, you could give a talk at CBC and it would probably be the most well attended, no joke. It is one of the hottest topics in recent years - there could easily be a whole other thread about controlling the hop creep and consistency.

We force ferment every batch of NE/hazy IPA we brew, and regularly see that bio dry hopped ones finish anywhere from 1-3 SG points lower. The biggest contributing factor we've noticed is sourcing of the hop crop. Generally, hops from the same lots have much less FG variance between brews.

This proves problematic for the vast majority of breweries out there, as contracts are lean if exist at all, and the majority of our hops come from various sources on the secondary market. OH is definitely big enough to have some hefty contracts, but I would be surprised if all of their hops come from them.

/end off-topic hop creep info

I'm just speculating and was assuming that the amount of unfermentable sugars released by the interaction from the enzymes with the unfermentable sugars in the wort would be similar if you would use the same grainbill.
Given enough hops (and boy do they use alot) I would then think there would always be the same amount of gravity drop.

 

[ApolloMC]

Can someone clarify the best yeast for this recipe? OP states Gigayeast Vermont Ale but there is no such thing. GigaYeast Vermont IPA (GY054)? Yeast Bay makes Vermont Ale, which is supposedly conan as well.

This recipe looks amazing. Can't wait to give it a go.

 

[Dgallo]

Can someone clarify the best yeast for this recipe? OP states Gigayeast Vermont Ale but there is no such thing. GigaYeast Vermont IPA (GY054)? Yeast Bay makes Vermont Ale, which is supposedly conan as well.

This recipe looks amazing. Can't wait to give it a go.

You can literally use many different yeast you can use. Burlington Ale, London Ale, Imperial A04, Imperial Juice, London Fog, but my favorite for any style of NEIPA is Imperial A24 -Dryhop. All of the yeast are peach/citrus ester forward and really aid the hops. I believe in underpitching these yeast and have gotten nice results at .5-6

 

[ApolloMC]

You can literally use many different yeast you can use. Burlington Ale, London Ale, Imperial A04, Imperial Juice, London Fog, but my favorite for any style of NEIPA is Imperial A24 -Dryhop. All of the yeast are peach/citrus ester forward and really aid the hops. I believe in underpitching these yeast and have gotten nice results at .5-6

Thanks. I've used Burlington Ale and London 3 several times before. Burlington never really gave me what I was looking for in an NEIPA, and while London 3 always got the job done, I'd like to try an actual conan strain if I can find one.. I'm just trying to determine what the OP suggests, since he only called it out by name and it seems to be a combination of two brands.

It might be a moot point anyway. I only have access to White Labs, Wyeast and Omega locally, and I don't plan on ordering any liquid yeast this time of year. I'll probably give Omega DIPA Ale a try.

And thanks for the tip on under pitching. I've heard this before but never gave it a lot of thought. I'll probably try and pitch as you suggest, at a .5-.6 rate.

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks. I've used Burlington Ale and London 3 several times before. Burlington never really gave me what I was looking for in an NEIPA, and while London 3 always got the job done, I'd like to try an actual conan strain if I can find one.. I'm just trying to determine what the OP suggests, since he only called it out by name and it seems to be a combination of two brands.

It might be a moot point anyway. I only have access to White Labs, Wyeast and Omega locally, and I don't plan on ordering any liquid yeast this time of year. I'll probably give Omega DIPA Ale a try.

And thanks for the tip on under pitching. I've heard this before but never gave it a lot of thought. I'll probably try and pitch as you suggest, at a .5-.6 rate.

Burlington ale is a connan strain. So is A04 and A24 is a blend of a connan strain. All connan strains are all temp specific to be able to gain the esters and need to be under pitched to get them. You can either ferment at a constant 63*f but I personally don’t get as much esters with the temp as I do with the temp drive I use. Pitch 68 let it free rise to 72ish in the next day and a half then push it to 74 for the remainder of highly active fermentation. Then let it natural fall to the 70-72 and hold it there until you drop the yeast or dryhop