Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[LumberZach]

Just about 2 weeks, anything to report?

Sorry, I did try it, but my buddy ended up overcarbing the keg. It was also super green because it had only been kegged 6 days prior. So it was difficult to tell if the water made any improvement. I'll be brewing my own this Wednesday and will report back once it's done and carbed properly. IF the water makes an improvement it will probably only be noticed in a regular NEIPA with no lactose or any other flavoring. I'll be brewing a regular NEIPA with all Cashmere.

 

[benco]

This is my first attempt at making this type of beer using the OPs recipe except for the water. I’m using my local water which is from a rural water company and works pretty good for me. I usually make IPAs. I have never made a Neipa beer either, but I love them. I just got all the ingredients in and plan on brewing next week on my biab system.

 

[benco]

Brewing this right now and had a couple of questions if anyone can help. I’m using 22.2% alpha Cryo Hops, should I cut these amounts in half. Ibu is 38 before I cut in half. Also my beersmith is showing about 8% abv which seems off. Any thoughts? Thanks

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Brewing this right now and had a couple of questions if anyone can help. I’m using 22.2% alpha Cryo Hops, should I cut these amounts in half. Ibu is 38 before I cut in half. Also my beersmith is showing about 8% abv which seems off. Any thoughts? Thanks

In general, cryo hops should be used at 1/2 the rate as standard pellet hops.

Is beersmith accounting for lactose as being a fermentable? I haven't brewed a beer with lactose in it using Beersmith software yet. I used the Grainfather recipe builder and couldn't add the lactose to the actual fermentable bill because it was being calculated as a fermentable (lactose is not a fermentable sugar)

 

[benco]

In general, cryo hops should be used at 1/2 the rate as standard pellet hops.

Is beersmith accounting for lactose as being a fermentable? I haven't brewed a beer with lactose in it using Beersmith software yet. I used the Grainfather recipe builder and couldn't add the lactose to the actual fermentable bill because it was being calculated as a fermentable (lactose is not a fermentable sugar)

Thank you! Appreciate your help.

 

[cheesebach]

Beersmith doesn't consider lactose fermentable, at least in my experience. Things that would account for a different abv% when trying to match someone else's recipe are:

1) Difference efficiency numbers
2) Difference in post- boil volume
3) Difference in FG estimate due to yeast selection
4) Difference in FG estimate due to mash temp and variables

I would try to dial in the OG rather than FG, since FG is only a predicted value. That would mean adjusting the grain bill to account for differences in #1 and #2.

 

[benco]

Beersmith doesn't consider lactose fermentable, at least in my experience. Things that would account for a different abv% when trying to match someone else's recipe are:

1) Difference efficiency numbers
2) Difference in post- boil volume
3) Difference in FG estimate due to yeast selection
4) Difference in FG estimate due to mash temp and variables

I would try to dial in the OG rather than FG, since FG is only a predicted value. That would mean adjusting the grain bill to account for differences in #1 and #2.

Thank you! That makes sense. She finished at 1.070 for 5.5 gal in fermenter. I hope it turns out good, a few more steps to go.

 

[Rainy]

Another hint:"You also learn a hell of a lot from the triumphs too. A watershed moment in our brewhouse was when Other Half came to brew with us, and we found kindred spirits in how they messed around with their water profiles."

Together with the comment section of this video: "So James says he starts with the extremely soft Cornish water and suggests any brewer do the same and work your way up as you do batches. He also splits the chloride over mash and kettle additions."

And Verdant are known to use more chloride than sulfate, so my guess would be that they add extra CaCl in the kettle.

Also don't underestimate the effect of carbonation on mouthfeel.

 

[Genuine]

I've been trying to really take the time to evaluate local NEIPA's to me (Treehouse for the most part) and noting the carbonation. I still think this is a style that mimics alot of oatmeal stouts as far as mouthfeel. My current NEIPA that I have fermenting, I'm planning on going with 1.8-1.9 Vol of CO2 and see how that might change mouthfeel perception.

 

[TBryerton]

I've been trying to really take the time to evaluate local NEIPA's to me (Treehouse for the most part) and noting the carbonation. I still think this is a style that mimics alot of oatmeal stouts as far as mouthfeel. My current NEIPA that I have fermenting, I'm planning on going with 1.8-1.9 Vol of CO2 and see how that might change mouthfeel perception.

I think pretty much every Tree House ipa that I’ve had was well carbonated. I’m still under the impression that mouthfeel is a result of grain bill, water chemistry, and hop oils.

 

[benco]

Brewing this right now and had a couple of questions if anyone can help. I’m using 22.2% alpha Cryo Hops, should I cut these amounts in half. Ibu is 38 before I cut in half. Also my beersmith is showing about 8% abv which seems off. Any thoughts? Thanks

It’s been done for a couple of weeks. I did burst carb for two days at about 30. I missed the whirlpool hops! Still has 6 oz of cryo hops. Taste great, doesn’t look like OP. Taste of OJ and a little sweet. Mouthfeel is great, not slick or bitter. Its a great beer. I like the Vermont yeast.

 

[smalloy88]

I brew every once in a while with some guys in the industry who have given me subtle hints about different brewery secrets.

Things I've learned about Other Half:

Their house yeast strain is a 2:1 co-pitch of S04:US05. They add more US05 to later generations, but some other breweries let the S04 take over. I've heard Monkish and Tired Hands use something similar. I'm not sure whether they use this in their daydream series, but it'd be worth an experiment. I, personally, think LA3 works great with this style.

They use upwards of 50% oats in the daydream beers. I've done IPAs with 20% flaked oats and 20% malted oats (40% total) and had great success.

They use oat milk in these beers.

Personal Opinions:
I think they only use cryo hops in the ddh versions of these beers. I dry hop in the fermenter with pellets and then dry hop in the serving keg with cryo.

I think the key is finding the right portion of flaked oats, malted oats, and oat milk in the grain bill.

I don't think any more than a half pound of lactose per 5 gallons should be used. OH stresses they use a "little bit of lactose" in these beers. Too much lactose will make the beer too sugary sweet and not creamy sweet. I think the cream comes from the oats and oat milk.

I am going to attempt this style in the next few weeks and report back how it goes.

Here's my last recipe that turned out great:
Water:
Ca 100
SO4 100
Cl 150
pH 5.2

4# 2-row
4# Maris Otter
3# Fawcett Oat
3# Flaked Oat
1# Carafoam
0.25# Acid Malt

Mash @ 152

OG 1073
FG 1018
IBU ~40

London Ale III

1.5 oz CTZ 20 min
0.5# lactose 10 min

Whirlpool (30 min @ 165 degF)
2 oz Mosaic
2 oz Citra
1 oz CTZ

Dry Hop (day 3)
4 oz Mosaic
2 oz Mosaic Lupulin

Dry Hop (serving keg)
1 oz Mosaic Lupulin

This is the 5 gallon version. I actually brewed 10 gallons and split the batch into two fermenters. The second fermenter had the same dry hop schedule with Citra instead of Mosaic. I plan on doing something similar, except bumping up the oats slightly and adding oat milk. I also might take CTZ out of the whirlpool addition and use a mix of hops in the dry hops instead of one single hop.

 

[skibb]

Their house yeast strain is a 2:1 co-pitch of S04:US05. They add more US05 to later generations, but some other breweries let the S04 take over. I've heard Monkish and Tired Hands use something similar. I'm not sure whether they use this in their daydream series, but it'd be worth an experiment. I, personally, think LA3 works great with this style.

Very interesting - curious what your source is?

I personally get zero SO-4 yeast character out of their IPAs - their beers are very clean. In my experience SO-4, even when pitched/fermented lower at 62 or 64, still gets quite estery. I get a lot of bazooka bubblegum out of it, which I taste in a lot of TH beers, and they seemingly use SO-4 as a major portion of their blend.

 

[smalloy88]

Very interesting - curious what your source is?

I personally get zero SO-4 yeast character out of their IPAs - their beers are very clean. In my experience SO-4, even when pitched/fermented lower at 62 or 64, still gets quite estery. I get a lot of bazooka bubblegum out of it, which I taste in a lot of TH beers, and they seemingly use SO-4 as a major portion of their blend.

I found it hard to believe as well, but apparently this brewer has chatted with Henry (Monkish) and Jean(TH) and they all use similar blends as their house strain. I still don't know if they use this house strain in the daydreams, though. Take it for what it's worth, too; They could just be throwing BS to keep people at bay. I agree with your description of S04, I haven't ever co-pitched it though. I know Treehouse yeast has been isolated and shown to be a blend of S04 with a little bit of other strains. Can't find the article but I remember it was something like 90% S04 then two other strains to make up the other 10%.

 

[Mer-man]

Yeesh, but who has a good Half Acre clone?

 

[beervoid]

I found it hard to believe as well, but apparently this brewer has chatted with Henry (Monkish) and Jean(TH) and they all use similar blends as their house strain. I still don't know if they use this house strain in the daydreams, though. Take it for what it's worth, too; They could just be throwing BS to keep people at bay. I agree with your description of S04, I haven't ever co-pitched it though. I know Treehouse yeast has been isolated and shown to be a blend of S04 with a little bit of other strains. Can't find the article but I remember it was something like 90% S04 then two other strains to make up the other 10%.

If you go to the other half website some of their beers have yeast choice stated as "vermont" yeast so I highly doubt they are using the blend suggested

https://otherhalfbrewing.com/beers/?fwp_ingredient_other_ingredients=vermont-yeast

 

[cheesebach]

If you go to the other half website some of their beers have yeast choice stated as "vermont" yeast so I highly doubt they are using the blend suggested

https://otherhalfbrewing.com/beers/?fwp_ingredient_other_ingredients=vermont-yeast

Maybe playing a bit of devils advocate here, but wouldn’t that imply that the beers that don’t list Vermont yeast are likely using something else? I would tend to agree though that S-04/US-05 doesn’t seem to fit with the flavor profile I get from Other Half. With Toppling Goliath and Treehouse beers, I pick up the S04 character pretty clearly.

 

[beervoid]

Maybe playing a bit of devils advocate here, but wouldn’t that imply that the beers that don’t list Vermont yeast are likely using something else? I would tend to agree though that S-04/US-05 doesn’t seem to fit with the flavor profile I get from Other Half. With Toppling Goliath and Treehouse beers, I pick up the S04 character pretty clearly.

True, worth a try out. They are tight in space so maintaining several yeasts would probably be hard for them so perhaps they mix dry yeasts to get some variety.

Vermont gives that peachy ester. Us05 gives peach like esters on lower temps. s04 for british character... Coincidence?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I did a tour there and if I remember correctly they said they use Imperial's Joystick or something like that for their house strain... Daydreams are "vermont" yeast based on their old IG posts. When I brewed this with barbarian it definitely had that OH type flavor to it. Not exactly the same, but way closer than I've come with 1318 or S04 or Juice.

Maybe the S04 and US-05 copitch was earlier OH days.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Very interesting - curious what your source is?

I personally get zero SO-4 yeast character out of their IPAs - their beers are very clean. In my experience SO-4, even when pitched/fermented lower at 62 or 64, still gets quite estery. I get a lot of bazooka bubblegum out of it, which I taste in a lot of TH beers, and they seemingly use SO-4 as a major portion of their blend.

What kind of pitching/fermentation schedule gives you the most bubblegum character?

 

[skibb]

I pitch 2 500g Bricks for 405 gallons. Rehydrated and start ferm off at 64F. Let free rise to 66F. At about 2 plato before terminal I will do my bio DH and up FV setpoint to 72 for D rest (this is usually day 3ish)

 

[deadwolfbones]

I did no-boil NEIPA recently with 100% SO4 and definitely got the bubblegum. 66F the whole time.

 

[madscientist451]

Did a little searching on google and came up with this:

Thanks to HomebrewTalk forum user Isomerization running some pretty awesome DNA tests on yeasts and dregs from Treehouse cans, we have a pretty solid idea of what different yeasts are in each of the Treehouse core offerings. The trick now is ratios and esters. I chose to do this:
Day 1 – S04/T58/WB06:92%/5%/3% – pitch all day 1 at regular pitching temp 72º
Day 2 – reduce temperature to 64º
Day 8 – raise temp to 70* and dry hop
Day 10 – cold crash for 2 days and keg or bottle

Source:https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/

 

[SanPancho]

I pitch 2 500g Bricks for 405 gallons. Rehydrated and start ferm off at 64F. Let free rise to 66F. At about 2 plato before terminal I will do my bio DH and up FV setpoint to 72 for D rest (this is usually day 3ish)

You find there’s enough heat to get itself up to 72 on its own with only 2P left? I feel like we dont manage to get that much of a climb at the tail end. Ambient is usually mid 60s tho.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I think pretty much every Tree House ipa that I’ve had was well carbonated. I’m still under the impression that mouthfeel is a result of grain bill, water chemistry, and hop oils.

I agree here. TH has comedic looking head on their beers if you pour properly. I think they're well carbonated but done so in a way that makes it soft. Likely natural carbonation. I know other half does not carbonate naturally - they carb in a brite tank over the course of a day or so according to the tour I took a few months back. Other Half beers are still soft though.

There is more than one way to skin a cat! Let us know how it comes out. I've tried the lower carbing and have had some good results.

 

[cpham574]

Did a little searching on google and came up with this:

Thanks to HomebrewTalk forum user Isomerization running some pretty awesome DNA tests on yeasts and dregs from Treehouse cans, we have a pretty solid idea of what different yeasts are in each of the Treehouse core offerings. The trick now is ratios and esters. I chose to do this:
Day 1 – S04/T58/WB06:92%/5%/3% – pitch all day 1 at regular pitching temp 72º
Day 2 – reduce temperature to 64º
Day 8 – raise temp to 70* and dry hop
Day 10 – cold crash for 2 days and keg or bottle

Source:https://trinitybrewers.com/brews/ipa/julius-clone-treehouse-brewing-ipa/

How does one go about measuring 92%/5%/3% in terms of grams? Also, is a starter needed?

 

[cpham574]

Sorry, I did try it, but my buddy ended up overcarbing the keg. It was also super green because it had only been kegged 6 days prior. So it was difficult to tell if the water made any improvement. I'll be brewing my own this Wednesday and will report back once it's done and carbed properly. IF the water makes an improvement it will probably only be noticed in a regular NEIPA with no lactose or any other flavoring. I'll be brewing a regular NEIPA with all Cashmere.

Any update?

 

[BeerFst]

https://www.neonraptorbrewingco.com/raptorblog/romulus-and-remus/

a very similar experiment was just posted to r/homebrewing, but I'm still curious to hear your results as well

 

[madscientist451]

How does one go about measuring 92%/5%/3% in terms of grams? Also, is a starter needed?

I'd use a whole pack of So4, which is 11.5 G and do the math for the other amounts.
I can't remember much from algebra class, so I used a percentage calculator found here:
https://www.calculator.net/percent-calculator.html

So if you use a whole pack of So4, which is 11.5 g, the total amount of yeast used will be 12.5 g
use .625g of T58
and .375g of WB06

I'm going to try it soon. Anyone have any other yeast combinations for this type of beer?

 

[Dgallo]

So getting back to the OP I too took my own stab at a dreamwave base clone. Had some great success with mouthfeel and body. I went with 30% malted oat and 10% flaked barley, 2% honey and the rest Pilsner. Def needs more tweaking but malted oats is the direction to go in my opinion if youre trying to imitate an Oat Cream NEIPA.