New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[BeerFst]

I just used A24 for the 2nd time at 63-65 degrees and it worked great. I did a west coast IPA with it and I had it stop at 1.023 from 1.066...however the pouch was about 7 months old so I'm sure that's a factor in it.

I just had a similar experience. I made a starter, but intentionally pitched low cell counts. Though A24 is supposed to avoid the false positive that straight A20 may provide, I found that ferm was done and stopped at 1.022 (from 1.062). I increased my ferm temp to 75, roused the keg, and things restarted, albeit VERY slowly. i would get a bubble from the blowoff every 1-4 seconds, and after another 4 days i am down to 1.020. I decided to "call it" and soft crashed yesterday morning to 58. Since I will dry hop tonight with a good 4 oz, I am expecting some minor creep/continued ferm hoping for a few more points.

 

[secretlevel]

Random yeast experiment tonight. Haven’t used dry yeast in a looooong time.
...
So4/S-33/K-97

pitch at 72, ferment at 62 for two days then let free rise.

Is this the Tree House blend or something similar? I remember reading a few threads where the Tree House yeast was identified as having a blend of S-04 and S-33 and others but several people reported getting more Belgian yeast flavors after trying the blend. Also are you doing a 1:1:1 packets?

Either way, Belgian yeast is known to aid biotransformation quite a bit so I'm really curious to hear how your beer turns out!

 

[couchsending]

Is this the Tree House blend or something similar? I remember reading a few threads where the Tree House yeast was identified as having a blend of S-04 and S-33 and others but several people reported getting more Belgian yeast flavors after trying the blend. Also are you doing a 1:1:1 packets?

Either way, Belgian yeast is known to aid biotransformation quite a bit so I'm really curious to hear how your beer turns out!

Supposedly their yeasts are a blend of something else... but honestly who knows. Yes this was loosely inspired by their “blend” of yeasts. S-33 isn’t really Belgian. It’s a weird yeast that’s rather fruity but doesn’t produce phenols. It’s genetically similar to Muntons/Windsor/London ESB. K-97 is the dry form of 1007 which is also the yeast that Pinthouse supposedly uses.


Both these yeasts have the ability to biotransform hop compounds. I used an 11g pack of S-04, 3g of K-97, 2g of S-33.

 

[JustusLiebig]

This recipe improved a lot for me when I upped my flaked oats from 1 lb to 3 lb, just got my highest score in a local competition at 42.5.

I've plugged the recipe into Brewfather, with only minor adjustments and the final gravity with London Ale III is about 1.015, the last point before it is "outside" of the style guidelines for FG. What was your final gravity? And if it is lower, how did you get it down with that much flaked oats.

 

[anteater8]

I've plugged the recipe into Brewfather, with only minor adjustments and the final gravity with London Ale III is about 1.015, the last point before it is "outside" of the style guidelines for FG. What was your final gravity? And if it is lower, how did you get it down with that much flaked oats.

This one ended at 1.017 which is indeed outside of the style guidelines, but I don't think far enough outside for judges to notice. I'm BJCP and would not have guessed it was that high.

Oddly, I brewed the exact same recipe another time and it ended at 1.013. Both mashed at 154 and fermented with Imperial Juice. Not sure which one is the fluke but I know they were both great and I like what 3 lb of oats does.

 

[JustusLiebig]

This one ended at 1.017 which is indeed outside of the style guidelines, but I don't think far enough outside for judges to notice. I'm BJCP and would not have guessed it was that high.

Oddly, I brewed the exact same recipe another time and it ended at 1.013. Both mashed at 154 and fermented with Imperial Juice. Not sure which one is the fluke but I know they were both great and I like what 3 lb of oats does.

Huh. Not that FG can be viewed by itself anyway. Do you add sugar to dry it out?

 

[JustusLiebig]

The malted oats is a better call over flaked oats when your using them in a high percentage of the grain bill for 2 reasons. The first reason is the mash, malted oats has husk which will help prevent stuck sparges like you would see using that much flaked oats. The second reason goes to the size of the molecular proteins. Flaked oats have larger molecular protein and will actually floc out much quicker than malted oats, pulling hop oils and compounds that are positively attracted down with them.

But could it be that the proteins disproportionately pull out polyphenols that result in a harsher beer?

 

[Dgallo]

But could it be that the proteins disproportionately pull out polyphenols that result in a harsher beer?

I haven’t seen any literature that states that proteins will extract polyphenols at a higher rate, however I have seen numerous studies that prove that during fermentation, yeast will bind polyphenols and proteins together, causing these bound compounds to stay in suspension longer, which inadvertently causes greater and longer lasting hopburn.

That’s why many hbers and commercial brewers have stoped or greatly reduced the amount of dryhops being added during active fermentation

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Re: malted oats vs flaked oats, another possible reason to favor malted is it's supposedly lower in manganese which is a major factor in oxidation. I did an experiment with my last 2 hazy batches though I kept the same grain bills which was 2 row, white wheat and oats 78/11/11 and used malted oats in the first and flaked in the second. I haven't tapped them yet but I suspect I won't notice much difference and I'll stick to generally using malted oats far more often.

 

[Dgallo]

Re: malted oats vs flaked oats, another possible reason to favor malted is it's supposedly lower in manganese which is a major factor in oxidation. I did an experiment with my last 2 hazy batches though I kept the same grain bills which was 2 row, white wheat and oats 78/11/11 and used malted oats in the first and flaked in the second. I haven't tapped them yet but I suspect I won't notice much difference and I'll stick to generally using malted oats far more often.

I saw that in the report that Janish posted as well but I’m just curious why that’s the case. Does the grain consume the manganese during germination?

 

[jturman35]

Seems like I also recall Janish mentioning he has cut down drastically on flaked oats for this very reason.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I saw that in the report that Janish posted as well but I’m just curious why that’s the case. Does the grain consume the manganese during germination?

Yeah I'm not sure. I heard him say it on a podcast and he mostly talked about why manganese could be bad(oxidation and more of it sticks around in the mash than other similar elements) and how to possibly mitigate it(mash hopping). Perhaps the study he cited went into more detail on why malted grains would have less. I usually rely on him(or someone else) much smarter than me to interpret those studies and relay the info to me

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah I'm not sure. I heard him say it on a podcast and he mostly talked about why manganese could be bad(oxidation and more of it sticks around in the mash than other similar elements) and how to possibly mitigate it(mash hopping). Perhaps the study he cited went into more detail on why malted grains would have less. I usually rely on him(or someone else) much smarter than me to interpret those studies and relay the info to me

Understandable lol. I figure it would have to be something during germination of the oats because other than malting the grain there is nothing else that could think of that could cause flaked oat to be higher in it.

 

[secretlevel]

Re: malted oats vs flaked oats, another possible reason to favor malted is it's supposedly lower in manganese which is a major factor in oxidation. I did an experiment with my last 2 hazy batches though I kept the same grain bills which was 2 row, white wheat and oats 78/11/11 and used malted oats in the first and flaked in the second. I haven't tapped them yet but I suspect I won't notice much difference and I'll stick to generally using malted oats far more often.

Great experiment I see similar experiments on Brulosophy and they are judged by flavor as opposed to longevity. In my mind you should keep 4+ bottles of each and open them side by side at different intervals. Maybe 2 months, 3 and 4 to see how oxidation has impacted each of them.

 

[Dgallo]

Great experiment I see similar experiments on Brulosophy and they are judged by flavor as opposed to longevity. In my mind you should keep 4+ bottles of each and open them side by side at different intervals. Maybe 2 months, 3 and 4 to see how oxidation has impacted each of them.

Yeah that be cool but it’s throwing another variable in the mix.. bottling. It’s almost inevitable that the beer will ingest oxygen when bottling on the hb scale to some extent and it will invalidate the experiment.

 

[DrGMG]

Not sure where I read it but I read that crystal malts also contribute to oxidation. I'm a believer in that hops in large quantities contribute. I've had NEIPA oxidize in less than a week when I've had a clogged transfer and had to open the fermenter. I don't use flaked anything or crystal either.

 

[Dgallo]

Not sure where I read it but I read that crystal malts also contribute to oxidation. I'm a believer in that hops in large quantities contribute. I've had NEIPA oxidize in less than a week when I've had a clogged transfer and had to open the fermenter. I don't use flaked anything or crystal either.

I used flaked in 60% of my recipes and they never oxidize on me, that being said my practices are absolutely sound and the only chance of oxygen pic up would be any air stuck in the hop pellets.

No ingredient itself causes oxidation, only exposure to oxygen can do that. There are compounds that are more susceptible than others to oxidize like manganese and polyphenols from hops and grain, but it’s more or less your process.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Great experiment I see similar experiments on Brulosophy and they are judged by flavor as opposed to longevity. In my mind you should keep 4+ bottles of each and open them side by side at different intervals. Maybe 2 months, 3 and 4 to see how oxidation has impacted each of them.

I'm more concerned with flavor/mouthfeel too. I don't really think any really hoppy beer should sit around for 3/4 months to be drunk even if your anti-oxidation practices are perfect so I wouldn't really base my process on maximizing shelf life. Luckily I don't distribute beer commercially so I have even less reason to worry about that. I mainly want to just maximize the quality during the prime drinking period. I'll certainly take note if there are any oxidation differences between the 2 beers though, although I'll be keeping them in kegs.

 

[DrGMG]

I used flaked in 60% of my recipes and they never oxidize on me, that being said my practices are absolutely sound and the only chance of oxygen pic up would be any air stuck in the hop pellets.

No ingredient itself causes oxidation, only exposure to oxygen can do that. There are compounds that are more susceptible than others to oxidize like manganese and polyphenols from hops and grain, but it’s more or less your process.

Yea, now i do closed transfers and don't have the problem, unless I bottle to ship...

 

[Dgallo]

Yea, now i do closed transfers and don't have the problem, unless I bottle to ship...

Very true. For shipping I take off the ball lock of one of my co2 lines purge the bottle the best I can and then fill it as close to the brim as I can before capping. Not perfect but it’s given me the best luck so far.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Very true. For shipping I take off the ball lock of one of my co2 lines purge the bottle the best I can and then fill it as close to the brim as I can before capping. Not perfect but it’s given me the best luck so far.

That's what I do, purge with my CO2 and always cap on foam. I don't do it often or for long term storage but I've had bottles and growlers sit in my fridge for a couple weeks before I got to them and there weren't noticeable issues. I do want to pick up a counter pressure filler at some point though to be able to fill some bottles off kegs and be more confident in their shelf stability.

 

[JustusLiebig]

I haven’t seen any literature that states that proteins will extract polyphenols at a higher rate, however I have seen numerous studies that prove that during fermentation, yeast will bind polyphenols and proteins together, causing these bound compounds to stay in suspension longer, which inadvertently causes greater and longer lasting hopburn.

That’s why many hbers and commercial brewers have stoped or greatly reduced the amount of dryhops being added during active fermentation

I am not stating that I know they do drop out more quickly, but it has to be considered. There is a lot of literature on larger protein molecules leading to the removal of polyphenols from food products such as wine and beer, partially-hydrolyzed gluten is a clarifying agent for that reason. The mechanism appears to be that the larger the complexes are, then they have enough mass to drop from solution instead of being controlled by simple brownian movement, which seems arguable that free polyphenols are more suseptible to since they are much smaller and mostly soluble in an aqueous solution. I just am not sure that your hypothesis that the protein-polyphenol complexes are responsible for hop burn because I don't see a lot of evidence suggesting that polyphenols drop out of solution more quickly than protein-polyphenols.
You cannot see polyphenols, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Protien-polyphenols are just large enough to cause refraction of light and therefore having more turbidity. Do you have any literature to cite that shows polyphenols drop out of solution more readily than protein-polyphenol complexes?

To summarize, we have a pretty good understanding that larger protein complexes actually do drive sedimentation of polyphenols. My question would be if these polyphenols are more likely to bind to proteins than other compounds that impart other fruity flavors, such as β-citronellol. I don't think we can just dismiss flaked oats or other adjuncts as to be avoided based on the notion they make the beer have more hopburn, of course, oxidation is another thing to consider.

 

[89Hen]

So I gave the recipe from post #5803 another shot. This time no subbing of grains or hops (had to out of necessity last time). This was also my maiden voyage on kegging. Tried to do a closed transfer but couldn't get the beer to flow into the keg, I'm sure I had an airlock somewhere, maybe my air supply line was too small (that will be for another thread). But I think I did avoid oxygen as best I could and very quickly sealed the keg and purged the air quickly.

Last night I poured my first draft beer and almost cried... tears of joy.

 

[Dgallo]

I am not stating that I know they do drop out more quickly, but it has to be considered. There is a lot of literature on larger protein molecules leading to the removal of polyphenols from food products such as wine and beer, partially-hydrolyzed gluten is a clarifying agent for that reason. The mechanism appears to be that the larger the complexes are, then they have enough mass to drop from solution instead of being controlled by simple brownian movement, which seems arguable that free polyphenols are more suseptible to since they are much smaller and mostly soluble in an aqueous solution. I just am not sure that your hypothesis that the protein-polyphenol complexes are responsible for hop burn because I don't see a lot of evidence suggesting that polyphenols drop out of solution more quickly than protein-polyphenols.
You cannot see polyphenols, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Protien-polyphenols are just large enough to cause refraction of light and therefore having more turbidity. Do you have any literature to cite that shows polyphenols drop out of solution more readily than protein-polyphenol complexes?

To summarize, we have a pretty good understanding that larger protein complexes actually do drive sedimentation of polyphenols. My question would be if these polyphenols are more likely to bind to proteins than other compounds that impart other fruity flavors, such as β-citronellol. I don't think we can just dismiss flaked oats or other adjuncts as to be avoided based on the notion they make the beer have more hopburn, of course, oxidation is another thing to consider.

I do have literature one a few of the things; polyphenols being responsible for astringency(hopburn) and fermentation binding proteins and polyphenols resulting in haze stability. I’ll post them shortly

 

[DrGMG]

I don't mind hop burn at all.

 

[JustusLiebig]

I do have literature one a few of the things; polyphenols being responsible for astringency(hopburn) and fermentation binding proteins and polyphenols resulting in haze stability. I’ll post them shortly

I would agree that polyphenols are responsible for astringency and also that protein-polyphenols resulting in haze stability. However, that doesn't mean that free polyphenols do not remain in solution, you just can't see them. And at higher concentrations with larger proteins, it appears that protein-polyphenol complexes will settle out.
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._as_clarifying_agent_of_musts_and_white_wineshttps://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/24/11/2186/pdf
https://doi.org/10.1021/jf0105539
https://doi-org.ezproxy1.lib.asu.edu/10.1039/C2FO00006G

 

[flintoid]

A little off topic but this is just too comical not to share. A local brewery in Boston, Aeronaut, who has been around long enough to know better, attempted maybe their 4th NEIPA: Imperial Galaxyc Cirrocumulus. And their story about the color is this: “it eventually settles. We used a special grain to get the darker colors.”

I do believe this is code for “oxidized.” This should make us all feel great about O2 management. It tasted like pure disappointment.

 

[DrGMG]

A little off topic but this is just too comical not to share. A local brewery in Boston, Aeronaut, who has been around long enough to know better, attempted maybe their 4th NEIPA: Imperial Galaxyc Cirrocumulus. And their story about the color is this: “it eventually settles. We used a special grain to get the darker colors.”

I do believe this is code for “oxidized.” This should make us all feel great about O2 management. It tasted like pure disappointment.

O wow

 

[Dgallo]

I would agree that polyphenols are responsible for astringency and also that protein-polyphenols resulting in haze stability. However, that doesn't mean that free polyphenols do not remain in solution, you just can't see them. And at higher concentrations with larger proteins, it appears that protein-polyphenol complexes will settle out.
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._as_clarifying_agent_of_musts_and_white_wineshttps://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/24/11/2186/pdf
https://doi.org/10.1021/jf0105539
https://doi-org.ezproxy1.lib.asu.edu/10.1039/C2FO00006G

So if you agree than I’m confused to what you are debating because that’s exactly what you seemed to be contesting.

The size of the branch chain proteins and the degree to which the specific yeast strain binds the polyphenols will determine the molecular weight which will determine how long they stay in suspension. Also the amount of free polyphenols in solution prior to fermentation all plays a roll. That’s why dryhoping during fermentation can increase the presence of hopburn.

Anyway here are the articles;
Astringency due to polyphenols - https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...=polyphenol+astri#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=moFNK61Dg6cJ


Protein polyphenol reaction - https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=iC3IUA1t88UJ

 

[Northern_Brewer]

despite both being conan strains, this makes me wonder whats contributing to these slight differences among the different manufacturers.

Variations like that are completely normal between manufacturers even when they have yeast from the same source, as they measure the vital statistics in different standard worts in different conditions, and may eg have different tolerances for off flavours.

It gets more complicated with "Conan" which in reality is a family of related yeasts that have been harvested from a variety of sources, often the most runty dregs from a Heady Topper can of uncertain age. Perhaps more than any other yeast, Conans vary a lot between manufacturers.

 

[Dgallo]

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._as_clarifying_agent_of_musts_and_white_wineshttps://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/24/11/2186/pdf
https://doi.org/10.1021/jf0105539
https://doi-org.ezproxy1.lib.asu.edu/10.1039/C2FO00006G

Also you can’t use wine articles as direct correlations to beer. Wine is none carbonated and finished at much lower gravities than beer. This means it has much less force to keep certain compounds in solution than beer does

 

[secretlevel]

Can I get some insight on Dry Hopping techniques? In past I haven't had too many oxidation issues, but reading today's comments I'm getting a bit worried: I ferment in a bucket and just cracked the lid to add first dry hop on day 3. The plan is to ferment a few more days, then soft crash on day 8 to 57F, and then add the dry hop #2 on Day 9.
Would I be better off minimizing oxidation and kegging the beer before the second dry hop? This way I could at least purge any O2 that gets in...

Edit: I use the spigot to rack the beer into keg.

 

[flintoid]

Can I get some advice on Dry Hopping techniques? In past I haven't had too many oxidation issues, but reading today's comments I'm getting a bit worried: I ferment in a bucket and just cracked the lid to add first dry hop on day 3. The plan is to ferment a few more days, then soft crash on day 8 to 57F, and then add the dry hop #2 on Day 9.
Would I be better off minimizing oxidation and kegging the beer before the second dry hop? This way I could at least purge any O2 that gets in...

I would think so. But it's hard to rack into a keg pressurized (at least somewhat) with C02. I do keg-to-keg transfers. And I highly suggest doing a fermentation vessel you can pressurize. There are some instructions on this thread about using fermonsters with CBD systems (floating dip tubes). I did that- added ball locks to my fermonster lid, and the quality of my NEIPAs have been resoundingly good. Purged kegs and a self purging fermonster with a adjustable valve on the gas ball lock tower keeps all the 02 away.

With gravity transfers (I was using a fastferment conical) it still allowed 02 exposure sometimes. I always had a degree of oxidation even when I purged things as best as I could.

 

[jturman35]

How many of you guys are using floating dip tubes on your NEIPAs?

 

[DrGMG]

How many of you guys are using floating dip tubes on your NEIPAs?

I used to, now I use one in my fermenter.

 

[BeerFst]

I use them for keg hopping. Janish filter in the fermenting keg

 

[Noob_Brewer]

How many of you guys are using floating dip tubes on your NEIPAs?

I use floating dip tube in my fermonsters, not in kegs. Love them.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Can I get some insight on Dry Hopping techniques? In past I haven't had too many oxidation issues, but reading today's comments I'm getting a bit worried: I ferment in a bucket and just cracked the lid to add first dry hop on day 3. The plan is to ferment a few more days, then soft crash on day 8 to 57F, and then add the dry hop #2 on Day 9.
Would I be better off minimizing oxidation and kegging the beer before the second dry hop? This way I could at least purge any O2 that gets in...

Edit: I use the spigot to rack the beer into keg.

I agree with what @flintoid stated in response to your post. I would add that if you aren't certain you can minimize oxygen when you soft crash, then I would recommend against it. I don't use a bucket like you, but when soft crashing from fermentation temps to any temp in the 50s, the fermentation vessel will need to suck in air as the temperature drops. So if you don't have a way to pump in CO2 (instead of air) when soft crashing, I think you might do more harm than good. I use a modified fermonster setup with ball-locks on the lid like lots here use. When soft crashing, Ive noticed that the suck back is actually pretty substantial, but in my case Im pumping CO2 into it and the pressure inside the fermonster maintains 2-3 PSI.

 

[jturman35]

What’s the benefit of the floating dip tube in the fermenter? I have a Spike conical and not sure how a floating dip tube would help?

 

[Dgallo]

What’s the benefit of the floating dip tube in the fermenter? I have a Spike conical and not sure how a floating dip tube would help?

I use my cbd in my fermenter for one main reason....to be able to close transfer from the fermenter to the serving keg with little to no trub or hop debris