New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[leesmith]

Question/advice needed on extraction rates from bagged dry hops:

While I would rather go commando, I really need to bag my dry hops using my current process. Given that, how bad is extraction via bags? (I use 1 ounce per bag.) Should I double the dry hops? Would 8-10 ounces of cryo do the trick?

What type of fermentor are you using?

 

[SRJHops]

What type of fermentor are you using?

It's a Big Mouth with a spigot. I get too much hop debris when I commando, but when I bag the aroma and flavor suffers.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I'm going to have to throw a "don't do that unless you really have to" vote in there for pitching in the 80's and slowly chilling, especially for lager yeast.
Your yeast are going to be at their most active well above their ideal range and will, in all likelihood (variable depending on yeast strain and how high your temps) throw off flavors.
If you are using an immersion chiller and relying only on warm tap water, there are a multitude of easy fixes to chill to actual pitching temps, like switching to a submersion pump in a bucket of ice water once you are down to about 90F.

I do that and get to lager pitch temps (46-48F) in about 30-40 minutes from flameout.
The pump sends ice water through the immersion chiller. You can use all kinds of pumps. I got a small sump pump from Lowes, but some use aquarium pumps.

It really takes very little additional effort or equipment to be able to chill to proper pitch temps in a very short time (ale pitch temp of 65-68 within 20 minutes, lager pitch 46-48 in 30-40 minutes, depending on ambient conditions).

Also, the advantages of rapid cooling are better break formation and if you give 30-60 minutes of settling time post-pitch, all of your hops solids will settle out with break material. I free pitch my hops and I am able to send crystal clear wort from the kettle to the fermenter, so there is no issue with hops debris.
See pic for an example of wort going from kettle to fermenter an hour or so from flameout at lager pitching temp with loose hops.
All done with an immersion chiller and ground water, then switching to pump and bucket of ice water through immersion chiller.

 

[MaCheFai]

Thanks brother. It was ;
12lb - 2row
3lb - Flaked Barley
.25lb - honey malt

Ran with Imperial A24

Wow, so simple! Any maltodextrin or sugar added? And how do you like the A24 vs the 1318?

 

[stickyfinger]

Janish talks about this some in his ipa book. pitching warm and instantly cooling the fermenter is not that bad according to at least one study he mentioned. i've done it with no ill effect that i could detect on many beers now. i've never done it for lagers though. i bet w-34/70 could handle low to mid-70s pitch though.

I'm going to have to throw a "don't do that unless you really have to" vote in there for pitching in the 80's and slowly chilling, especially for lager yeast.

View attachment 644671

 

[SRJHops]

I'm going to have to throw a "don't do that unless you really have to" vote in there for pitching in the 80's and slowly chilling, especially for lager yeast.
Your yeast are going to be at their most active well above their ideal range and will, in all likelihood (variable depending on yeast strain and how high your temps) throw off flavors.
If you are using an immersion chiller and relying only on warm tap water, there are a multitude of easy fixes to chill to actual pitching temps, like switching to a submersion pump in a bucket of ice water once you are down to about 90F.

I do that and get to lager pitch temps (46-48F) in about 30-40 minutes from flameout.
The pump sends ice water through the immersion chiller. You can use all kinds of pumps. I got a small sump pump from Lowes, but some use aquarium pumps.

It really takes very little additional effort or equipment to be able to chill to proper pitch temps in a very short time (ale pitch temp of 65-68 within 20 minutes, lager pitch 46-48 in 30-40 minutes, depending on ambient conditions).

Also, the advantages of rapid cooling are better break formation and if you give 30-60 minutes of settling time post-pitch, all of your hops solids will settle out with break material. I free pitch my hops and I am able to send crystal clear wort from the kettle to the fermenter, so there is no issue with hops debris.
See pic for an example of wort going from kettle to fermenter an hour or so from flameout at lager pitching temp with loose hops.
All done with an immersion chiller and ground water, then switching to pump and bucket of ice water through immersion chiller.
View attachment 644671

Cool info, and I really liked your post about the whole hops and 02. (I was considering using some for the DH, but backed off based on the timely posts.) But do remember that most of us on this NEIPA thread are steeping our wort for 20 - 60 minutes, so rapid cooling isn't often a high priority... But good info for lagers, certainly.

Hey, join us! Get some NEIPA's on that list! Here is mine:

Serving: NEIPA
Fermenting: NEIPA
On Deck: NEIPA, NEIPA, NEIPA

:0)

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Cool info, and I really liked your post about the whole hops and 02. (I was considering using some for the DH, but backed off based on the timely posts.) But do remember that most of us on this NEIPA thread are steeping our wort for 20 - 60 minutes, so rapid cooling isn't often a high priority... But good info for lagers, certainly.

Hey, join us! Get some NEIPA's on that list! Here is mine:

Serving: NEIPA
Fermenting: NEIPA
On Deck: NEIPA, NEIPA, NEIPA

:0)

I was going to do an NEIPA a few weeks ago, but did a porter instead. I've done several and they have turned out excellent (I base mine on Treehouse products, particularly Julius). But I'm experiencing hops fatigue at the moment and want style variety.

I forgot about the slow cooling whirlpool thing - I will occasionally do a flameout addition on a hoppy beer, but I don't do whirlpools anymore - too hard to predict how much bittering they will add (yes, some softwares try to predict it, but they are really just guessing).

 

[Cavpilot2000]

i bet w-34/70 could handle low to mid-70s pitch though.

It can. I've done it when unforesen circumstances dictated. It just so happens to be one of the most forgiving yeast strains of any kind out there.
IMHO It's better to pitch warm than let un-pitched wort sit overnight oxidizing while it cools, but neither is ideal.
I would consider pitching above optimal temps to be an "in case of emergency" procedure.

But YMMV. There are people who make faux lagers by fermenting warm without cold conditioning and claim they can't tell the difference from a classically made lager. Palates and flavor thresholds vary from person-to-person, so if something works and you're happy with it, go for it!

 

[Dgallo]

Wow, so simple! Any maltodextrin or sugar added? And how do you like the A24 vs the 1318?

Simple grainbills are the way to go with this style. The focus is the hops so no need to get fancy. You just need a base malt, body builder, and some form of crystal malt for color and sweetness desired. I never add maltodextrin and only add lactose in milkshake style IPAs, sours, or stouts.

a24 is my favorite yeast for the style(most in this thread are probably sick of hearing me talk about my love for it lol). Gives similar peach/nectarine notes but then also provide huge citrus notes too. It’s a blend of two strains, A20 and A04 and you get the best of both ester profiles.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

But do remember that most of us on this NEIPA thread are steeping our wort for 20 - 60 minutes, so rapid cooling isn't often a high priority...

I get that, but once you are done with your whirlpool period, you still actively chill to pitch temp, right?
Once you reach pitching temp, a settling period of 30-60 minutes will allow all hops particles from free-pitched hops to settle on the bottom and you can rack off from above that trub layer.
The concept works as well for an NEIPA as it does for a Pilsner. You just have to be willing to accept a fair amount of fluid loss to leave behind all the trub and hops matter. Full disclosure: to getsuch clear, trub/hops-free wort, I leave behind about a gallon of trub-y liquid.

Again, I'm just offering alternate suggestions to solve the questoins/problems being posed, in this case to free-hop or contain the hops. My point being you can free-hop and still not carry it over to the fermenter if you let it settle undisturbed after chilling. The downside in this style though, is that the more hops you use, the more liquid volume you will lose by leaving it behind.
Everything is a set of tradeoffs.

 

[SRJHops]

I get that, but once you are done with your whirlpool period, you still actively chill to pitch temp, right?
Once you reach pitching temp, a settling period of 30-60 minutes will allow all hops particles from free-pitched hops to settle on the bottom and you can rack off from above that trub layer.
The concept works as well for an NEIPA as it does for a Pilsner. You just have to be willing to accept a fair amount of fluid loss to leave behind all the trub and hops matter. Full disclosure: to getsuch clear, trub/hops-free wort, I leave behind about a gallon of trub-y liquid.

Again, I'm just offering alternate suggestions to solve the questoins/problems being posed, in this case to free-hop or contain the hops. My point being you can free-hop and still not carry it over to the fermenter if you let it settle undisturbed after chilling. The downside in this style though, is that the more hops you use, the more liquid volume you will lose by leaving it behind.
Everything is a set of tradeoffs.

I hear you about the trade-offs! I am wrestling with that in terms of dry hopping, commando vs bagged.... and getting the most aroma/flavor vs lots of debris in the final beer.

For the NEIPA style, of course, the goal is not clear beer, and it seems some trub can actually be helpful for fermentation and lead to clearer beer! Yeah, kind hard to believe, but check it out: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

I actually work to get all of the liquid out of the kettle, even going so far as to use a strainer over the carboy mouth to get the very last drop!

This does bring up something I've been meaning to ask folks: How much hot/cold break or "trub" do you actually see in the bottom of the kettle? I see gooey hop debris, even when I spider, but I am hard-pressed to separate that from anything else. I don't see any break material, even though I see the hot break during boiling -- so not sure where it goes?!

If I put all of the liquid wort into the fermenter, but none of the hop debris, is any "trub" going into the fermenter?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I hear you about the trade-offs! For the NEIPA style, of course, the goal is not clear beer, and it seems some trub can actually be helpful for fermentation and lead to clearer beer! Yeah, kind hard to believe, but check it out: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

I actually work to get all of the liquid out of the kettle, even going so far as to use a strainer over the carboy to get the very last drop!

This does bring up something I've been meaning to ask folks: How much hot/cold break or "trub" do you actually see in the bottom of the kettle? I see hops, even when I spider, but I am hard-pressed to separate that from anything else. I don't see any break material, even though I see the hot break during boiling -- so not sure where it goes?!

If I put all of the liquid wort into the fermenter, but none of the hop debris, is any "trub" going into the fermenter?

You are right that some trub is beneficial to fermentation - there are nutrients in it. However, they can be replaced by other means IF you choose to keep trub out.
The reasons some folks choose to send clear wort to the fermenter are mainly twofold:
1: yeast harvesting - less crap in the fermenter means your sediment is almost entirely pure yeast.
2: trub contains lipids and other staling compounds that will ultimately shorten the shelf life of the beer. If you consume it fast, that's less important. It becomes more important if you are going to be lagering for an extended period (of course not applicable to NEIPA).

If you don't see break material after cooling, are you using a pump to circulate during cooling? If so, your impeller is chopping up those large "egg drop" pieces very fine. But yes, if you keep hops material out, but put cloudy wort in, the stuff making it cloudy is your trub and break material.

Again, it is a fairly small group of people for fairly specialized reasons taking the care to send clear wort to the fermenter - all about the tradeoffs.

 

[SRJHops]

Simple grainbills are the way to go with this style. The focus is the hops so no need to get fancy. You just need a base malt, body builder, and some form of crystal malt for color and sweetness desired. I never add maltodextrin and only add lactose in milkshake style IPAs, sours, or stouts.

a24 is my favorite yeast for the style(most in this thread are probably sick of hearing me talk about my love for it lol). Gives similar peach/nectarine notes but then also provide huge citrus notes too. It’s a blend of two strains, A20 and A04 and you get the best of both ester profiles.

Carafoam/crystal for head retention too, right? I am interested in increasing foam/head retention for this style, because I often get local craft NEIPAs that seriously lack it.

I've been using both carafoam and flaked barley, which seems to do the trick, though honestly I can't say if I need them both -- or need them at all. It is certainly possible the malted wheat is creating some foam, right? But do I remember that malted oats hurts foam retention?

 

[SRJHops]

You are right that some trub is beneficial to fermentation - there are nutrients in it. However, they can be replaced by other means IF you choose to keep trub out.
The reasons some folks choose to send clear wort to the fermenter are mainly twofold:
1: yeast harvesting - less crap in the fermenter means your sediment is almost entirely pure yeast.
2: trub contains lipids and other staling compounds that will ultimately shorten the shelf life of the beer. If you consume it fast, that's less important. It becomes more important if you are going to be lagering for an extended period (of course not applicable to NEIPA).

If you don't see break material after cooling, are you using a pump to circulate during cooling? If so, your impeller is chopping up those large "egg drop" pieces very fine. But yes, if you keep hops material out, but put cloudy wort in, the stuff making it cloudy is your trub and break material.

Again, it is a fairly small group of people for fairly specialized reasons taking the care to send clear wort to the fermenter - all about the tradeoffs.

Cool. Yeah, not at the yeast-harvesting level, and hard to see that happening in my future -- but you never know!

No pumps, just old-school whirlpooling by hand with a metal spoon. :0)

P.S. Much respect to those making lagers (edit: Pilsners) -- harder to make a good lager (edit: Pilsner) than a good NEIPA, for sure!

 

[stickyfinger]

Cool. Yeah, not at the yeast-harvesting level, and hard to see that happening in my future -- but you never know!

No pumps, just old-school whirlpooling by hand with a metal spoon. :0)

P.S. Much respect to those making lagers -- harder to make a good lager than a good NEIPA, for sure!

i was thinking about this recently. i cant remember the last lager i made that wasn’t good. they’re super easy. IPA takes a lot more care to male something really good.

 

[Dgallo]

Carafoam/crystal for head retention too, right? I am interested in increasing foam/head retention for this style, because I often get local craft NEIPAs that seriously lack it.

I've been using both carafoam and flaked barley, which seems to do the trick, though honestly I can't say if I need them both -- or need them at all. It is certainly possible the malted wheat is creating some foam, right? But do I remember that malted oats hurts foam retention?

There are plenty of grains that help with head retention and body at the same time. Oats is another story. They contain an elevated lipid level compared to other grains. At about 5% they will typically not decrease the head of a beer but as the % used increases they start having a negative effect on head retention. Then you have to attemp to balance that by adding other grains or upping the percentages of other grains. Lately I’ve really enjoyed 20% flaked barley.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

i was thinking about this recently. i cant remember the last lager i made that wasn’t good. they’re super easy. IPA takes a lot more care to male something really good.

I don't think lagers are as hard as many think, but they are more work and require more attention. Pilnsers and Helles are among the hardest, whereas Dunkels and Marzens are fairly easy.

I actually think NEIPAs are super easy to make and make well, too, as long as you have a good handle on controlling/limiting oxygen ingress. It also depends which school you are in. I try to mimic Treehouse and Hill, but I really don't like the Trillium style. I think the difference is more attention on the base beer vs more attention on the hops. I am of the school of thought that an NEIPA still needs to be a decent base beer under all the hops, but many think it should be basically hops juice and the base beer should get out of the way to showcase the hops. Just two different schools of thought.

 

[SRJHops]

I don't think lagers are as hard as many think, but they are more work and require more attention. Pilnsers and Helles are among the hardest, whereas Dunkels and Marzens are fairly easy.

I actually think NEIPAs are super easy to make and make well, too, as long as you have a good handle on controlling/limiting oxygen ingress. It also depends which school you are in. I try to mimic Treehouse and Hill, but I really don't like the Trillium style. I think the difference is more attention on the base beer vs more attention on the hops. I am of the school of thought that an NEIPA still needs to be a decent base beer under all the hops, but many think it should be basically hops juice and the base beer should get out of the way to showcase the hops. Just two different schools of thought.

I probably should have said good Pilsners are harder to make than good NEIPAs. I even made some decent lagers using extract back in the day when I was first learning...

We don't have those breweries here in the Midwest, so I tend to lean on Toppling Goliath and local breweries such as Modist, Fair State, Blackstack, Lupulin, Drekker (close enough to local) and Barrel Theory to experience the style. I've only made 13 NEIPA's so far, and a few have been pretty good if I do say so myself (and so do the neighbors). But none have been as good as the best I've had, so the journey continues...

 

[SRJHops]

i was thinking about this recently. i cant remember the last lager i made that wasn’t good. they’re super easy. IPA takes a lot more care to male something really good.

Yeah, I should have said Pilsners. Regular 'ol lagers aren't too tough.

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah, I should have said Pilsners. Regular 'ol lagers aren't too tough.

I would say each beer is difficult in its own right. The minute differences in process and care to make a great example of both styles I would say are equally difficult. I will say the handleing care of a NEIPA post fermentation is rather precise to ensure longevity and quality is a difficult process to master if you don’t have the correct equipment

 

[leesmith]

It's a Big Mouth with a spigot. I get too much hop debris when I commando, but when I bag the aroma and flavor suffers.

Use a bigger bag.....a 5 gallon paint strainer bag or similar bag made for home brewing, crush the hop pellets, and agitate the fermentor a couple times during the dry hop period.

You may still have the bag get stuck in the spigot when racking though....unless you can tie it off to the lid somehow.

Also...preventing suck back during agitation is hard if you don't have a way to provide a little head pressure with co2.

Now that I think about it....no wonder people don't like bagging their hops....the most ideal fermentor or secondary is a keg which you can shake with head pressure while dry hopping within a suspended bag.

Not sure I helped.

 

[MaCheFai]

Simple grainbills are the way to go with this style. The focus is the hops so no need to get fancy. You just need a base malt, body builder, and some form of crystal malt for color and sweetness desired. I never add maltodextrin and only add lactose in milkshake style IPAs, sours, or stouts.

a24 is my favorite yeast for the style(most in this thread are probably sick of hearing me talk about my love for it lol). Gives similar peach/nectarine notes but then also provide huge citrus notes too. It’s a blend of two strains, A20 and A04 and you get the best of both ester profiles.

Okay, think I’ll pull a last min swap and give it a go this weekend. Although I really like 1318, I’ve been looking for ways to pull out some of the orange flavors more, so this might be exactly what I’ve been searching for.

What fermentation schedule do you find works best with it?

 

[Dgallo]

Okay, think I’ll pull a last min swap and give it a go this weekend. Although I really like 1318, I’ve been looking for ways to pull out some of the orange flavors more, so this might be exactly what I’ve been searching for.

What fermentation schedule do you find works best with it?

I underpitched at about .5mc/ml/*p. I pitch at 68 and then let it free rise to 72 which is typically within first 12 hours. Then I drive it to 74 for 2 days and push 75/76 at the most active fermentation and let it free fall back to around 70/72 until it finishes and cleans up

 

[SRJHops]

Use a bigger bag.....a 5 gallon paint strainer bag or similar bag made for home brewing, crush the hop pellets, and agitate the fermentor a couple times during the dry hop period.

You may still have the bag get stuck in the spigot when racking though....unless you can tie it off to the lid somehow.

Also...preventing suck back during agitation is hard if you don't have a way to provide a little head pressure with co2.

Now that I think about it....no wonder people don't like bagging their hops....the most ideal fermentor or secondary is a keg which you can shake with head pressure while dry hopping within a suspended bag.

Not sure I helped.

Yes, those are some good ideas - thanks! Will try a larger bag and crushing the pellets.

 

[Hannabrew]

I don't think lagers are as hard as many think, but they are more work and require more attention. Pilnsers and Helles are among the hardest, whereas Dunkels and Marzens are fairly easy.

I actually think NEIPAs are super easy to make and make well, too, as long as you have a good handle on controlling/limiting oxygen ingress. It also depends which school you are in. I try to mimic Treehouse and Hill, but I really don't like the Trillium style. I think the difference is more attention on the base beer vs more attention on the hops. I am of the school of thought that an NEIPA still needs to be a decent base beer under all the hops, but many think it should be basically hops juice and the base beer should get out of the way to showcase the hops. Just two different schools of thought.

LowOx brewing has definitely improved my game and I have yet to make a bad or even average lager (hell my first ever lager made it to the GABF as a ProAm thanks to their expertise). However my NEIPAs are like golf...there are times that I feel like I own the style and then it just kicks me in the nuts for no apparent reason and I end up giving most of it away. Granted none of them are BAD...just not up to my standards for what I want out of the style (which could have a lot to do with it). Oddly, I have been having better results ditching some of the LowOx practices for this style (especially spunding).

 

[LumberZach]

Really happy with how this one turned out. Simple grain bill of Brewer's 2Row, Golden Promise, and White Wheat hopped with Galaxy and Mosaic and fermented with 1318. Did a 6oz. whirlpool 50/50 Galaxy/Mosaic, 3oz. bio hop on day 2, and 6oz. dry hop after fermentation was done and crashing to 55F. This is one of my most aromatic and hop saturated NEIPA's that I've made to date, and I've been brewing them since 2016. No filter, just the lighting in my kitchen against the fridge.

 

[Sbe2]

i bet w-34/70 could handle low to mid-70s pitch though.

It definitely will, its my go to warm fermented lager yeast!

 

[Sbe2]

I want to run a question by you folks. I currently have a NEIPA with 1318 going fermenting out. Its in a CF5 and am thinking about racking my next brew on top of the current yeast, once the current batch is kegged. I have not dry hopped yet, but am planning to "bag" them in a stainless hop cannon. Hopefully this will result in clean yeast be left in the cone.

Has anyone done this with a NEIPA? Should I dump the yeast after I rack the current beer and repitch on top of the new wort (which will be another NEIPA)? Or should I leave it in the cone? If I leave it in the cone, I feel like there might not be enough yeast exposed to the new wort.

I am kinda feeling lazy about making another starter from my harvested yeast.

 

[SRJHops]

Really happy with how this one turned out. Simple grain bill of Brewer's 2Row, Golden Promise, and White Wheat hopped with Galaxy and Mosaic and fermented with 1318. Did a 6oz. whirlpool 50/50 Galaxy/Mosaic, 3oz. bio hop on day 2, and 6oz. dry hop after fermentation was done and crashing to 55F. This is one of my most aromatic and hop saturated NEIPA's that I've made to date, and I've been brewing them since 2016. No filter, just the lighting in my kitchen against the fridge.

Nice! 5 gallons? What day for the 2nd dh - 7 or so?

 

[MaCheFai]

Really happy with how this one turned out. Simple grain bill of Brewer's 2Row, Golden Promise, and White Wheat hopped with Galaxy and Mosaic and fermented with 1318. Did a 6oz. whirlpool 50/50 Galaxy/Mosaic, 3oz. bio hop on day 2, and 6oz. dry hop after fermentation was done and crashing to 55F. This is one of my most aromatic and hop saturated NEIPA's that I've made to date, and I've been brewing them since 2016. No filter, just the lighting in my kitchen against the fridge.

Looks nice! So is that 15oz of hops in a 5 gal batch? Did you use a spider in the whirlpool or a bag for the dry hops? And are you by chance keeping tabs on your PH? I'm curious to hear about mash and pre/post boil as it relates to the perceived "juiciness" and aroma. I assume that's what you mean by "hop saturated"?