New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[leesmith]

Possibly - I am going to go work through the Crisp malted oats first and to see if improved.

To be honest the driving force for me to drop wheat malt was not the Janish book per se but rather what they actually do at Sapwood. Snipsnap (2R, flaked oats, chit); Pillowfort (2R, malted oats, chit), Rings of Light (2R, GNO, chit), Cryovolcano (2R, chit, flaked oats), Cheater Hops 1&2 (different now - 2R, flaked wheat, chit, C10)

And you have had those beers?
And like them?

 

[NickC]

View attachment 635921

Latest batch... not the best lighting but close enough representation. In person looks a paler yellow and not as dark as pic. Super proud of this one.



6 lbs GP
3lbs 2 row
3lbs oat malt
2 lbs white wheat malt
1 lb GNO

Mash @ 158

OG 1070
FG 1018

Imperial Juice @ 68 up to 72 over 1 week

Soft crash to 50 for 48hrs

Dry Hop 4 days

Cold Crash to 38 for 48 hours then xfer to serving keg with suspended paint strainer bag of keg hops


Hop schedule: 1 oz Apollo 30 min boil, 5 oz Idaho 7 in WP, 4 oz whole cone mosaic and 2 oz galaxy in dry hop, and 2 oz whole cone mosaic serving keg.

Latest batch... not the best lighting but close enough representation. In person looks a paler yellow and not as dark as pic. Super proud of this one.



6 lbs GP
3lbs 2 row
3lbs oat malt
2 lbs white wheat malt
1 lb GNO

Mash @ 158

OG 1070
FG 1018

Imperial Juice @ 68 up to 72 over 1 week

Soft crash to 50 for 48hrs

Dry Hop 4 days

Cold Crash to 38 for 48 hours then xfer to serving keg with suspended paint strainer bag of keg hops


Hop schedule: 1 oz Apollo 30 min boil, 5 oz Idaho 7 in WP, 4 oz whole cone mosaic and 2 oz galaxy in dry hop, and 2 oz whole cone mosaic serving keg.

Pic in better sunlight.

Sucks I had so many firsts for this recipe I don’t know what did it, but I finally got the flavor right.

 

[isomerization]

I've read the Janish book several times (it's a bit harder to digest than I had hoped), but I don't remember him suggesting against malted wheat, as long as it wasn't too much. Maybe I missed it?

He does suggest switching to malted oats and avoiding flaked. He also loves that chit malt, but I am not currently planning to order any -- they don't have it at my LHBS.

Don’t feel bad, while I enjoyed the book and am glad I bought it, the internal contents of each of the chapters were rather repetitive.

It takes nuance to write a book summarizing other people’s work. This felt like a lot of regurgitation that lacked cohesive themes, at times.

I found the sections where he referenced his own experiments much easier to read and more enjoyable.

Closing the loop on my “kitchen sink” NEIPA (26days from brew day). Not the best but definitely in the top five. Vic secret definitely took lead in aroma & flavor. This is the first time I can say that “guava” is the pronounced flavor in my beer. It is uncanny how much it tastes like guava also it has a very faint hint of pine on the tale end of the sip.

First pour in my new “fancy” beer glass that I bought for get together this weekend. Wife said that I need to be able to serve beer in glasses without a brewery label etched in it. Coincidentally - it is shocking the lack of glass options available that offer a true 16oz pour w/ room for good head. The imperial pint glass just doesnt do it for me neither does the “breaks if you look at it” Speiglau IPA glass. These are Luigi Bormioli Birrateque Stout glasses (identical to IPA glass but 20oz instead of 18oz volume).

Another sidebar - RE Janish book - I dropped malted wheat from my grain bill after reading and now only use mated oats & chit malt. My Brews are at least 0.5-1.0 SRM darker from the outset, oxidize faster (4-5weeks vs 8-10 w/ wheat) even though I employ some rigourous cold side lodo measures, less hazy over the entire life of keg (not that it is a goal just an observation), no noticeable differences in aroma nor body, more malt presence.

I recently purchased some Crisp Naked Oat Malt instead TF am hoping to improve efficiency since this is a hulless oat malt.

Chit malt doesnt live up to the Janish hype for me as I believe other process tweaks and more easily sourced ingredient can accomplish the same things.

I have been using all 2R lately for base - am switching back to all GP. I have noticed a difference in the “sweetness” even though never stopped using honey malt.
View attachment 635870

Tapped a new batch last week with 13% malted wheat and 20% malted oats. Very pleased with that combo so far.

 

[ttuato]

And you have had those beers?
And like them?

Yes - except for pillowfort.
Yes - amazing. Reminds me of OG Treehouse beers: aroma explode from glass, soft pillowy mouthfeel, saturated hop flavors w/ supporting yeast esters Personally Treehouse not worth the wait / effort in new brewery. Cheater Hops was very good but not on par w/ SS, RoL, Cryo (super intense hop).

My to do this winter is to get some RVA Manchester yeast and make clone of Snip Snap & Rings of light

 

[Rainy]

It's quite funny because during the whole book, Scott Janish seems to promote malted wheat (smaller proteins, so more stable haze) vs flaked oats (more staling, more murky). Also on the recent brulosophy podcast, Scott was mentioning that they are moving away from flaked oats and replacing them with malted oats due to the higher change of staling.

Has anybody seen any effect from mash hops on staling?
Seems that they now use mash hops at sapwood cellars, so they must think it has an effect.

 

[SRJHops]

Have you tried malted wheat?
Do you like it?

I use both malted wheat and malted oats, so it's a little hard for me to know what would happen if I dropped the wheat. But it seems to work well for me.

I do think having these high protein grains helps to create a more permanent haze when they bind to the hops during fermentation. I am most certain of the malted oats, because I have altered the amounts. I keep the malted wheat because too much malted oats creates a super cloudy beer...

While I am still working on my beer (mostly getting the hop additions right), I have never had one drop clear, and I think it's because of the malted oats and malted wheat.

 

[leesmith]

I use both malted wheat and malted oats, so it's a little hard for me to know what would happen if I dropped the wheat. But it seems to work well for me.

I do think having these high protein grains helps to create a more permanent haze when they bind to the hops during fermentation. I am most certain of the malted oats, because I have altered the amounts. I keep the malted wheat because too much malted oats creates a super cloudy beer...

While I am still working on my beer (mostly getting the hop additions right), I have never had one drop clear, and I think it's because of the malted oats and malted wheat.

Make a beer with just malted wheat or malted oats...but not both. Maybe 75-80% two row and the rest of one of those two malts.

Then you will start to know the flavor and body contribution(s) better. Trying it for yourself is the best teacher.

Haze should be low down on the list of things to expect or achieve from an ingredient....especially when they have other quality’s to offer.

 

[SRJHops]

Make a beer with just malted wheat or malted oats...but not both. Maybe 75-80% two row and the rest of one of those two malts.

Then you will start to know the flavor and body contribution(s) better. Trying it for yourself is the best teacher.

Haze should be low down on the list of things to expect or achieve from an ingredient....especially when they have other quality’s to offer.

Agreed - that would do the trick. The issue, of course, is there are so many variables to dial in! I currently can only brew once a month, so which variables to focus on are always an issue for me when I tweak my recipe. Right now I am more focused on hop amounts and timing. (It already took me a while to dial in a grain bill that I think works.) But one day I will most certainly try brewing with just the malted oats and see if I miss the malted wheat, and perhaps do vice-versa.

(Side note: Was it the Janish book where I read about a home brewer who made 25 gallon batches, then split them into 5 gallon batches and tweaked each one? That would certainly make for a more rapid progression through the learning curve!)

Agree that haze is not the goal, but I think permanent haze (and increased flavor/aroma) is something to seek. Certainly better than having the beer drop clear. I tend to associate perma-haze with stability, and I think using high protein malted grains helps...

With that said, I have had some pretty tasty IPA's, and certainly PA's, that aren't very hazy. So hazy or not, aroma and flavor remain the ultimate goals...

 

[SRJHops]

Don’t feel bad, while I enjoyed the book and am glad I bought it, the internal contents of each of the chapters were rather repetitive.

It takes nuance to write a book summarizing other people’s work. This felt like a lot of regurgitation that lacked cohesive themes, at times.

I found the sections where he referenced his own experiments much easier to read and more enjoyable.

Tapped a new batch last week with 13% malted wheat and 20% malted oats. Very pleased with that combo so far.
View attachment 636072

Yeah, I won't for a minute bash the Janish book, because it's essential and the best one written about the hazy/NEIPA style so far. With that said, I do wish he would have found a publishing house rather than self publish, because I think a good editor would have made the book even better and/or a bit easier to read.

Good to see you are having success with the malted wheat and the malted oats! I also use some Carafoam, BTW, since (as noted by others), Janish suggests it's somewhat like chit malt. I use it to counter any negatives from the high protein malts to help increase foam/head retention.

 

[JohnConnor]

Whoa, do you know how high it got and for how long? If it started at 74 I have to think it went over 80!

I have temp control and a thermo well. It was kept at 74* +/- 1*.

 

[Dgallo]

My last batch I brewed with 20% flaked barely. Today marks 3 weeks. I’m really happy with the mouthfeel eel and body results. Almost slick like malted oats but great head retention. Anyone else use flaked barley recently?

 

[SRJHops]

I have temp control and a thermo well. It was kept at 74* +/- 1*.

74 is the top of the range for 1318, I believe, so I'm surprised that beer turned out so poorly. The reco from Janish is to ferment at the top of the range, unless I am mistaken.

Does not bode too well for my batch, which I am bottling this weekend. It hit 77 for less than 8 hours, when I dropped it to 68. I ramped it up to 72 after a few days before soft crashing to 55 a few days ago. It's back up to 72 for a few days and I will do the final dry hop tonight. I'll let you know how it all turns out!

 

[stickyfinger]

I don't recall Janish giving a recommendation on fermentation temp. He just lays out what happens if you ferment at certain temps, pitch at certain temps, cool at given times, etc. I DO remember him talking about esters getting in the way of hops in some beers as well. I did 72F with 1318 a few times and liked it.

74 is the top of the range for 1318, I believe, so I'm surprised that beer turned out so poorly. The reco from Janish is to ferment at the top of the range, unless I am mistaken.

Does not bode too well for my batch, which I am bottling this weekend. It hit 77 for less than 8 hours, when I dropped it to 68. I ramped it up to 72 after a few days before soft crashing to 55 a few days ago. It's back up to 72 for a few days and I will do the final dry hop tonight. I'll let you know how it all turns out!

 

[SRJHops]

I don't recall Janish giving a recommendation on fermentation temp. He just lays out what happens if you ferment at certain temps, pitch at certain temps, cool at given times, etc. I DO remember him talking about esters getting in the way of hops in some beers as well. I did 72F with 1318 a few times and liked it.

Even after reading Janish's new book a few times, there are still a few things I don't understand. Your comment about esters reminded me that I don't totally get those. I know we want the right esters for the kind of beer we are making, but I don't understand how to produce so many that they would overwhelm the hops. What would that mean for the taste?

Another thing I don't yet totally understand are polyphenols. From what I understand, there must be good ones and bad ones, and even the good ones (flavonols) from hops can come across harshly if we have too many/much. Am I on track here? Much of what I read seems to describe polyphenols as bad, but there must be some good things about them?

Finally, I can't remember if it was the article, the book, or a comment, but does Janish recommend dry hopping at colder temps? I always thought we should be dry hopping at warmer temps to get better extraction... Or are we trying to avoid too many...polyphenols!?

 

[kevink]

You kind of just have to experiment for yourself and see what you like. 90% of what I read ends up being BS in my opinion. Even if someone says do this or that, you may not like outcome as much as him.

 

[kevink]

My last batch I brewed with 20% flaked barely. Today marks 3 weeks. I’m really happy with the mouthfeel eel and body results. Almost slick like malted oats but great head retention. Anyone else use flaked barley recently?View attachment 636156

Please, man. I can't look at pics like that at work.

 

[Blazinlow86]

My last batch I brewed with 20% flaked barely. Today marks 3 weeks. I’m really happy with the mouthfeel eel and body results. Almost slick like malted oats but great head retention. Anyone else use flaked barley recently?View attachment 636156

Very nice

 

[Shenanigans]

I tested mine up to 20psi with water,and had a tiny leak at the spigot. I would prob not go over 10psi. You only need a couple psi to get things moving and/or prevent suckback during coldcrash

Nice. I'm going to look into trying that but might use one of those mini keg spears as I have one lying around that I never use.
Then only one hole is needed and you also have a built in vent.
I just need to figure out how to make an air tight hole.

 

[ttuato]

I DO remember him talking about esters getting in the way of hops in some beers as well

Thus my love/hate relationship with 1318. It makes amazing neipas, but Regardless of the hops I used, all beers tasted about 80-90% the same with major differences in bitterness or piney/dank.

 

[RCope]

My last batch I brewed with 20% flaked barely. Today marks 3 weeks. I’m really happy with the mouthfeel eel and body results. Almost slick like malted oats but great head retention. Anyone else use flaked barley recently?

A few months ago I used a lb of flaked barley in an Idaho 7/Belma NEIPA (WLP 095, Burlington Ale). It was delicious. I did however also use 18 oz of flaked oats so I'm not sure what the flaked barley brought to the party. It was only 1lb (about 8%). I did document the mouthfeel and head...both were very good. I seem to not be able to differentiate between flaked barley, oats or wheat when it comes to mouthfeel, though.

 

[lilbova3]

Thus my love/hate relationship with 1318. It makes amazing neipas, but Regardless of the hops I used, all beers tasted about 80-90% the same with major differences in bitterness or piney/dank.

+1 to this. Most definitely this. I’ve been on the NEIPA kick for quite some time but I’ve decided I need some West coast brews back in my life. First on order is a Blind Pig clone with US05.

 

[Blazinlow86]

+1 to this. Most definitely this. I’ve been on the NEIPA kick for quite some time but I’ve decided I need some West coast brews back in my life. First on order is a Blind Pig clone with US05.

Most definitely need to keep some West coast IPAs in the mix. I really like east coast stuff but can't drink them exclusively. Cheers

 

[CTS]

First 5g batch of my Neipa recipe, did a 2.5g test batch last year. Really focused on reducing cold side oxidization. Happy how it came out but doesn't have that upfront hoppy taste, will have to look at dry hopping after fermentation and how to reduce the possibility or oxidization.

It's funny I can't even finish a glass of west coast IPA but give me one of these and it's gone no problem! This will be brewed a few times a year I'm sure of it.

 

[ryanm8]

Honestly, I have used different amounts of flaked barley, oats, and white wheat in these beers and have not noticed much of a difference. I think as long as you have a decent amount of flaked adjuncts, it will basically produce the same beer.

I have not tried malted oats, but I may on my next batch. I also plan on trying Conan again since it's been a while. I plan on underpitching and fermenting cold to try to get max peach.

 

[Dgallo]

Honestly, I have used different amounts of flaked barley, oats, and white wheat in these beers and have not noticed much of a difference. I think as long as you have a decent amount of flaked adjuncts, it will basically produce the same beer.

I have not tried malted oats, but I may on my next batch. I also plan on trying Conan again since it's been a while. I plan on underpitching and fermenting cold to try to get max peach.

I disagree about not having differences. If you’re using on of the flaked adjuncts at 20% or higher you should be seeing uniqueness for all of them. Oats are always slicker on the tongue and head retention isn’t great. wheat seems chewier on the palate. Barley I just started using but I feel it’s somewhere in the middle. I’ll really liking it so far

 

[flintoid]

Agreed on the barley. It's like a hybrid between oats and wheat: gives it some body but not as much as wheat.

I'm dumping flaked adjuncts next time around. When using 1318 it causes the haze to crash out after a week.

I've never had problems with head retention but I've used only 10% flaked oats and 10% flaked wheat, max. I've never added anything to promote head retention and have never had a problem. It also could be my serving apparatus as I haven't gotten the chance to can my beer yet (next week will be the delivery of a Canular).

 

[nick sekerak]

My last batch, probably one of my top NEIPA's for mouthfeel and body. I have been blending grain trying for the "Electric brewery" color and its close.

Grist:
70.8% Pilsner Malt
8.3% Flaked WHeat
4.2% Flaked Rice
8.3% Flaked Oats
8.3% GNO

8%abv. First batch with A24 DH, Was shooting for 7.25%abv but it attenuated at 92% WOW!! not going back to 1318, with the esters this batch has. love it!


Citra/Azzaca Hops in WP and DH

 

[kevink]

I'm dumping flaked adjuncts next time around. When using 1318 it causes the haze to crash out after a week.

I have done so many batches with flaked oats and 1318 and the haze has never crashed out in a week. In some cases, the haze lasted months.

 

[nick sekerak]

Has anyone seen the new Fermzilla 27L? I just got one delivered today(can't wait to get rid of my fastferment!!!), and wanted to bounce an idea off you guys in this forum specifically. Rumor is that you can run a stir plate using the collection jar. SO i got to thinking, if i had a strong enough stir plate i could use it to circulate the wort during dry hopping for better hop utilization if i could place the stir plate under it during fermentation.....only if i could figure out how to deal with the trub not getting in the way of the stir bar. I will be doing my first batch with it in a week or two and report back.

 

[flintoid]

I have done so many batches with flaked oats and 1318 and the haze has never crashed out in a week. In some cases, the haze lasted months.

Maybe I should re-iterate- the haze doesn't entirely crash out. But it does lessen after a week. Jostling the keg fixes this, but I don't like shaking my kegs as I think it oxidizes the beer slightly. I think bottle c02 has trace amounts of air in it that cause oxidation, especially when you shake it up.

 

[GnenieGone]

The final post. I supposedly did everything perfect. Starter. Zero O2 transfers. Keg filter for seperating hops. Used a known great recipe courtesy @Dgallo. Looks and tastes a bit oxygenated w/bannana...really, bannana?? Done with IPAs...

 

[flintoid]

How hot did you let that ferment? And with what yeast?

 

[SRJHops]

The final post. I supposedly did everything perfect. Starter. Zero O2 transfers. Keg filter for seperating hops. Used a known great recipe courtesy @Dgallo. Looks and tastes a bit oxygenated w/bannana...really, bannana?? Done with IPAs...View attachment 636326

Dude, don't give up! Grab a growler from Southern Heights this weekend (because you can) and let's figure it out. Give us the ingredients and temps and procedures. Lots of folks with a lot more experience than me, but I bet we can diagnose.

I like banana, btw, so maybe it could be a good thing! Hybrid IPA-Hefe?!

 

[ryanm8]

I use 15% flaked oats normally and the head retention lasts for the entire time it takes me to drink the beer (~15 minutes). Also, I have not noticed the beer clearing no matter how long I wait. So maybe the real factor is process and not ingredients

 

[Dgallo]

Oats contain more lipids than any other flaked adjunct or malted grain. . Lipids negatively effect head retention. Some batches of oats will contain more than others based on the growing season and that’s why some people are have no issue at 15% while others lose their head in minutes when only using 8%. So it’s a fact that oats can negatively effect head retention passed a certain threshold and amount of lipids extracted.

That’s why you see many breweries using both wheat and oats because they want the mouthfeel of the oats and balancing with the wheat for the head

 

[leesmith]

The picture below is what was left of two ounces of hops after cleaning primary. Keg lid is for size comparison.

I bag my hops and thought the bag had ripped during dry hopping. There was practically nothing left in it. I rinsed the bag into the sink along with the yeast cake of the primary. The strainer shows what was left of the hops.

Usually have a swelled up mass of green matter inside the bag.

As a side note I do transfer clear wort to the fermenter...so no hot side hops were in there.

All 2019 Galaxy from Yakima Valley. Could these be T45 hops?

 

[ryanm8]

Oats contain more lipids than any other flaked adjunct or malted grain. . Lipids negatively effect head retention. Some batches of oats will contain more than others based on the growing season and that’s why some people are have no issue at 15% while others lose their head in minutes when only using 8%. So it’s a fact that oats can negatively effect head retention passed a certain threshold and amount of lipids extracted.

That’s why you see many breweries using both wheat and oats because they want the mouthfeel of the oats and balancing with the wheat for the head

It's possible. I can say that a few years ago when I first started brewing these, the head retention was awful (never had a problem with haze staying though). Over the years I have refined my process and head retention had continued to get better, despite me using more oats than in the past.

I just bought some new oats from Trader Joe's to replace my Walmart Great Value oats that have been doing well, so we'll see how that goes.

 

[vtipsy]

Apologies if I missed this somewhere in the previous 234 pages ...

Why the soft crash to 50f-ish rather than a full crash to 32 or at least to serving temperature around 38?

 

[Dgallo]

Apologies if I missed this somewhere in the previous 234 pages ...

Why the soft crash to 50f-ish rather than a full crash to 32 or at least to serving temperature around 38?

When people are referring to softcrashing here they are doing to drop the yeast out of suspension. That way they can dryhop with a greatly decreased amount of yeast present. so when they fully crash to serving temps later, the yeast will not strip any hop oils from the dryhop with them.

You can fully crash to serving temps to drop yeast if you choose but then it’s too cold to dryhop with great results. So you’d have to warm it back up to do so.

Softcrashing vs serving temp crashing has s bigger impact on commercial breweries. Takes a lot less time and energy to crash their volumes down to 50-55 versing 34. That’s where softcrashing came from

 

[EcuPirate07]

My newest NEIPA brewed with Amarillo, Simcoe, Motueka and Kohatu hops. I used Imperial yeast Loki, their Kveik strain pitched and fermented at 95 degrees.