New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[stefan646]

I don't have a co2 tank, but I could buy one if that will make such a big difference. That's why I asked about it, so that I could loose the direct bottling from primary- but it seems that for now I will stick with that
My LHBS supply(I live in Europe) has almost all Weyermann malt and only Simsons Maris Otter, no 2 row . From what I read the Weyermann Pilsner is a good substitute for pale 2 row and the Weyermann Pale Ale could be a substitue for Maris Otter. The Simsons Maris Otter is a little more expensive than the Weyermann, so for testing purposes I stick with the cheapest combination
I had good results using US-05 and heared different opinion about 04, after I get my beer right I will certainly try the S04 ass well.
For now I will try to stick with the OP grain amounts(mine has a little more that if I had perfectly transform from lb to kg )
I will make 2 batches: -the first one adding the dry hops on day 3, so that I could minimize the oxidation. This way I will also have an idea what oxidation could affect the beer comparing to batch 2.
-the second batch(only if the first try will be drinkable ) will have all the dry hops 3 day before bottling
See that how it goes, and if it all goes well I will also try different hop combination - my LHBS has Ammarillo

 

[JohnConnor]

@leesmith I'm curious about your krausen process. I tried it once. Added some CBC-1 to a DME mixture. Pitched it in the keg, racked my beer on top, and pressure didn't build at all. I actually saw a pressure decrease. I checked for leaks and couldn't find one. I'd like to give it a shot again but my first attempt has me scared.

I finally purchased a new, bigger kettle and want to pull like a quart of that wort off to do the krausen. Do you think that would work?

 

[leesmith]

@leesmith I'm curious about your krausen process. I tried it once. Added some CBC-1 to a DME mixture. Pitched it in the keg, racked my beer on top, and pressure didn't build at all. I actually saw a pressure decrease. I checked for leaks and couldn't find one. I'd like to give it a shot again but my first attempt has me scared.

I finally purchased a new, bigger kettle and want to pull like a quart of that wort off to do the krausen. Do you think that would work?

Was the starter active when you pitched it?

Did you account for where both the starter and the beer were at gravity wise?

And the volume of the beer?

Also, volume of the starter?

Yeah...you could pull some wort off during brewday....do it during the mash because your going to be saving it for a couple days waiting for the main batch to ferment. You would then boil that starter wort for about 10 min to kill any undesirable bugs in it before using it for the starter. Of course cooling it to ferm temp.

If the yeast is healthy it doesn’t take that long to get going and if you waited over night for the starter....it could have finished before you pitched it.

I do vitality starters quite often for brew day...literally about four to five hours before pitching. The yeast is very active at that point and forming a krausen.

 

[stickyfinger]

@leesmith I'm curious about your krausen process. I tried it once. Added some CBC-1 to a DME mixture. Pitched it in the keg, racked my beer on top, and pressure didn't build at all. I actually saw a pressure decrease. I checked for leaks and couldn't find one. I'd like to give it a shot again but my first attempt has me scared.

I finally purchased a new, bigger kettle and want to pull like a quart of that wort off to do the krausen. Do you think that would work?

must have been a leak. the yeast in the keg should have no issues fermenting the sugars. i’ve done it with success. just use cane or beet sugar. it’s even easier for the yeast to eat. just boil some up in water to sterilize

 

[JohnConnor]

I guess it's quite possible my "starter" was already done. I'm pretty sure I over pitched by quite a bit. So I can pull together my krausen "starter" in the morning, pitch it by the afternoon and I should be good?

I sprayed the whole keg down with star sans and water. I could not for the life of me find a leak...

 

[leesmith]

....So I can pull together my krausen "starter" in the morning, pitch it by the afternoon and I should be good?

Yep.

 

[stickyfinger]

I guess it's quite possible my "starter" was already done. I'm pretty sure I over pitched by quite a bit. So I can pull together my krausen "starter" in the morning, pitch it by the afternoon and I should be good?

I sprayed the whole keg down with star sans and water. I could not for the life of me find a leak...

you pressurized the keg to like 10 psi just to seal it up right? starters can ferment out pretty fast, maybe it wasn't enough dme? i think i tried like 70 grams of cane sugar in 4.5G of beer in a keg and it was more than enough, but i just injected it straight into the keg, no starter.

 

[SRJHops]

I don't have a co2 tank, but I could buy one if that will make such a big difference. That's why I asked about it, so that I could loose the direct bottling from primary- but it seems that for now I will stick with that
My LHBS supply(I live in Europe) has almost all Weyermann malt and only Simsons Maris Otter, no 2 row . From what I read the Weyermann Pilsner is a good substitute for pale 2 row and the Weyermann Pale Ale could be a substitue for Maris Otter. The Simsons Maris Otter is a little more expensive than the Weyermann, so for testing purposes I stick with the cheapest combination
I had good results using US-05 and heared different opinion about 04, after I get my beer right I will certainly try the S04 ass well.
For now I will try to stick with the OP grain amounts(mine has a little more that if I had perfectly transform from lb to kg )
I will make 2 batches: -the first one adding the dry hops on day 3, so that I could minimize the oxidation. This way I will also have an idea what oxidation could affect the beer comparing to batch 2.
-the second batch(only if the first try will be drinkable ) will have all the dry hops 3 day before bottling
See that how it goes, and if it all goes well I will also try different hop combination - my LHBS has Ammarillo

All sounds good. I'd hold off on the tank for now. If you decide to switch to kegging, then you'll have the Co2 tanks.

If you want to try the wine preserver gas for the 2nd dry hop, it's called Private Preserve Wine Preserver. I am not sure how well it works, but it's not that expensive and the theory is correct -- it should at least be better than nothing. It SEEMS to have worked for the one time I've tried it so far...

I switched to 04 and it works just as well as 05, but in theory it has more desirable flavors for this style. I think the 04 haters are just saying there are better (liquid) yeasts out there, which I am sure is true. I am getting ready to switch over to them for my NEIPA's, but you can't beat 04 and 05 for how well they work if you hydrate them properly.

 

[Dgallo]

I guess you could make this argument for any process or ingredient but in my opinion Yeast selection and a healthy fermentation is possibly the most important aspect. Many hop combination and schedules can produce a good ipa. Same with grain. But a poor yeast selection or a bad fermentation can ruin a beer. On the other hand a proper fermentation and the right yeast can take a beer to the next level.

 

[tld6008]

I guess it's quite possible my "starter" was already done. I'm pretty sure I over pitched by quite a bit. So I can pull together my krausen "starter" in the morning, pitch it by the afternoon and I should be good?

I sprayed the whole keg down with star sans and water. I could not for the life of me find a leak...

Even with the "done" starter the yeast isn't dead. If sugar is present and the temp is within fermenting range the yeast will eat the sugar producing CO2. I commonly keg and just add 2 oz of corn sugar for 5 gal and it carbs the beer just fine. If you had a leak you could have checked the SG to determine what happened. I have had several very small leaks on my keg posts due to the one size fits all oring/spring. Paid extra for specific replacements for the different posts and problem fixed.

 

[stickyfinger]

Even with the "done" starter the yeast isn't dead. If sugar is present and the temp is within fermenting range the yeast will eat the sugar producing CO2. I commonly keg and just add 2 oz of corn sugar for 5 gal and it carbs the beer just fine. If you had a leak you could have checked the SG to determine what happened. I have had several very small leaks on my keg posts due to the one size fits all oring/spring. Paid extra for specific replacements for the different posts and problem fixed.

i think we’re assuming the starter is providing the fermentables as well. there’s obviously a ton if yeast available without the starter. what is the point of adding the cbc1 yeast?

 

[Dgallo]

i think we’re assuming the starter is providing the fermentables as well. there’s obviously a ton if yeast available without the starter. what is the point of adding the cbc1 yeast?

I’m wondering why someone would choose to condition a keg verse just force carbing with co2. Is the savings worth it or is there another reason I’m not foreseeing

 

[couchsending]

I’m wondering why someone would choose to condition a keg verse just force carbing with co2. Is the savings worth it or is there another reason I’m not foreseeing

Oxygen scrubbing as well as the mouthfeel benefits from natural carbonation versus forced.

I do it all the time and krausen with the next fermenting batch usually. If it happens to be a hoppy beer it can also provide a little extra hop presence and potentially clean up any off flavors from primary fermentation of diacetyl caused by dry hopping.

 

[Dgallo]

Oxygen scrubbing as well as the mouthfeel benefits from natural carbonation versus forced.

I do it all the time and krausen with the next fermenting batch usually. If it happens to be a hoppy beer it can also provide
a little extra hop presence and potentially clean up any off flavors from primary fermentation of diacetyl caused by dry
hopping.

Wouldn’t this defeat the benefit of softcrashing to drop the yeast before the dryhop so you minimize the yeast strip?

 

[couchsending]

Wouldn’t this defeat the benefit of softcrashing to drop the yeast before the dryhop so you minimize the yeast strip?

Nope. You’re not adding that much additional yeast in reality. Sure you might get a slight dragging down of Hop oils when the yeast floccs but the benefits certainly outweigh that.

There’s a krausening calculator on Brewers Friend. It’s really easy.

 

[tld6008]

i think we’re assuming the starter is providing the fermentables as well. there’s obviously a ton if yeast available without the starter. what is the point of adding the cbc1 yeast?

Ahhh! starter providing carbonation sugar... Went right over the top of my head, I guess since I probably wouldn't do it.

 

[stefan646]

Hello guys,
I brew this beer last night and this morning I transfer it to the bucket (no chill). I miss my water numbers(damn those hops consume a lot ) so I end with 17l of wort and a FG of 1066. I think that I will add 3.5l of water to adjust it to 1055. Despite that all went fine, but here is the thing:
-I taste the hidrometer sample and the taste was fine at first and became bitter and bitter to the point that I had to drink some water after that sip so I could get rid of the bitter taste I know that after the fermentation the bitter from the hops are fading a lot, but should I be worried about it? I never taste a beer while fermenting so my question is: on day 3, when I open the bucket to dry hop, I will taste the beer to see how bitter is the beer and try to figure it out if I should use 6 oz of hops or I should scale it down - what taste should the beer have then? -very bitter, bitter, bitter as it should be when it is finish

 

[Dgallo]

Hello guys,
I brew this beer last night and this morning I transfer it to the bucket (no chill). I miss my water numbers(damn those hops consume a lot ) so I end with 17l of wort and a FG of 1066. I think that I will add 3.5l of water to adjust it to 1055. Despite that all went fine, but here is the thing:
-I taste the hidrometer sample and the taste was fine at first and became bitter and bitter to the point that I had to drink some water after that sip so I could get rid of the bitter taste I know that after the fermentation the bitter from the hops are fading a lot, but should I be worried about it? I never taste a beer while fermenting so my question is: on day 3, when I open the bucket to dry hop, I will taste the beer to see how bitter is the beer and try to figure it out if I should use 6 oz of hops or I should scale it down - what taste should the beer have then? -very bitter, bitter, bitter as it should be when it is finish

You won’t be able to tell at point. You’ll have krausen, hop particles, Protiens, and yeast by product off flavors that early into fermentation that will affect the flavor and you’ll detect some astringency and bitterness. You can do as you please but If I were you I would just throw them in. The dryhop shouldnt provide many additional ibus than you’ll detect

 

[stefan646]

Thank you Dgallo
In the spare time I randomly read things from all 194 pages and I found another reasons that I should do the dry hop in the day 2-3 : the diacetyl problem of US-05 after a big dry hop post fermentation. Maybe I should use only the S-04 after this batch

 

[Dgallo]

Thank you Dgallo
In the spare time I randomly read things from all 194 pages and I found another reasons that I should do the dry hop in the day 2-3 : the diacetyl problem of US-05 after a big dry hop post fermentation. Maybe I should use only the S-04 after this batch

That I don’t know about. I’ve personaly never had an experience with diacetyl in the beer, knock on wood! I just personally don’t believe I’ve ever had much benefit from early hopping. Different flavor from it for sure, just don’t think it has ever elevated my beer by doing it. But again your fermenting in a bucket so you need to look out for oxygen, so it might be your best option.

 

[SRJHops]

Hello guys,
I brew this beer last night and this morning I transfer it to the bucket (no chill). I miss my water numbers(damn those hops consume a lot ) so I end with 17l of wort and a FG of 1066. I think that I will add 3.5l of water to adjust it to 1055. Despite that all went fine, but here is the thing:
-I taste the hidrometer sample and the taste was fine at first and became bitter and bitter to the point that I had to drink some water after that sip so I could get rid of the bitter taste I know that after the fermentation the bitter from the hops are fading a lot, but should I be worried about it? I never taste a beer while fermenting so my question is: on day 3, when I open the bucket to dry hop, I will taste the beer to see how bitter is the beer and try to figure it out if I should use 6 oz of hops or I should scale it down - what taste should the beer have then? -very bitter, bitter, bitter as it should be when it is finish

The dry hops won't make your beer more bitter, so go ahead and use them.

I usually don't taste the wort, because it will just be a sugar bomb and nothing like the final beer (hopefully!). So, I don't think you need to panic at this point.

But I am curious when you added your hops and at what temps? I don't add ANY hops during the boil, though I am going to start adding an ounce at 10 or 15 to get a touch more bitterness. Currently, for my 6 gallon batch, I add 3 ounces at knockout/flameout, and 6 ounces at 175. Then 5 ounces at Day 2 and 4 at Day 3. (I will probably drop the total hops down to 14 or so next time, and move more to the final dry hop.)

My current beer isn't very bitter at all -- heck, a Pilsner has more bitterness. But it does have a ton of flavor, and just enough bitterness to make it enjoyable.

I'm neutral regarding your plan to add water. Personally, I would just stick with the 1.066 and enjoy a higher ABV beer.

 

[stefan646]

The dry hops won't make your beer more bitter, so go ahead and use them.

I usually don't taste the wort, because it will just be a sugar bomb and nothing like the final beer (hopefully!). So, I don't think you need to panic at this point.

But I am curious when you added your hops and at what temps? I don't add ANY hops during the boil, though I am going to start adding an ounce at 10 or 15 to get a touch more bitterness. Currently, for my 6 gallon batch, I add 3 ounces at knockout/flameout, and 6 ounces at 175. Then 5 ounces at Day 2 and 4 at Day 3. (I will probably drop the total hops down to 14 or so next time, and move more to the final dry hop.)

My current beer isn't very bitter at all -- heck, a Pilsner has more bitterness. But it does have a ton of flavor, and just enough bitterness to make it enjoyable.

I'm neutral regarding your plan to add water. Personally, I would just stick with the 1.066 and enjoy a higher ABV beer.

I usually make recipes that have a total of 1 oz hops and taste them before going to fermenter because I had some problem with scorching(I don't have it anymore with the new heating element). They all taste bitter, but this NEIPA taste poisonous bitter
I added all 6 oz of hops after the worth reached 160 F as per OP instructions, make a short whirlpool with the spoon then let it cool in the kettle overnight.
In the meantime I also decided to leave it this way with a higher ABV

 

[Dgallo]

I usually make recipes that have a total of 1 oz hops and taste them before going to fermenter because I had some problem with scorching(I don't have it anymore with the new heating element). They all taste bitter, but this NEIPA taste poisonous bitter
I added all 6 oz of hops after the worth reached 160 F as per OP instructions, make a short whirlpool with the spoon then let it cool in the kettle overnight.
In the meantime I also decided to leave it this way with a higher ABV

Sounds like astringency not bitterness... ph issues and/or tannins from the grains

 

[JohnConnor]

i think we’re assuming the starter is providing the fermentables as well. there’s obviously a ton if yeast available without the starter. what is the point of adding the cbc1 yeast?

I already had crashed the beer. I was thinking I wouldn't have enough yeast in suspension using 1318. That stuff flocc's like a mother so cbc-1 to make up for that.

 

[SRJHops]

Sounds like astringency not bitterness... ph issues and/or tannins from the grains

Agree. Probably not the hops causing the bitterness -- must be astringency. Maybe some grains got in the boil, or water was too hot for the mash/sparge. Maybe the no-chill method has something to do with it...? And it is indeed a good guess that the water PH was too high.

Anything he can do at this point to lower it? Will some of it go away during fermentation?

stefan646, if you can, get a water report from your city to see what the PH is. Assuming the PH is high, then (next time) throw in 1 tsp of gypsum into the mash water and 1 tsp into the sparge water. For NEIPA's, we're looking for brewing water around 5.5 ph or so. It's OK if you don't want to invest in a PH meter yet, but it won't hurt to use some gypsum and will probably help with your efficiency - and likely lower the astringency.

 

[couchsending]

Extended contact of hops and lots of yeast at higher temps has a tendency to produce lots of mercaptans. The hops will accelerate yeast death by coating the yeast cells with Alpha Acids and when they die they explode out all sorts of unpleasant stuff into your beer.

At low levels it’s what everyone describes as “overripe” fruit but at elevated levels it’s this rotting veg, cabbage, sulphuric compound. Some people are more sensitive to it than others. Whenever I added quantities of dry hops during fermentation I would get it in my final beer. I get it in lots of commercial “NEIPAs” and even the best. When I did my last beercation through New England I got it in a few Treehouse beers and it was really bad in the one Bissell I had on tap at the brewery. The Bissell was incredibly strong to me but I asked my buddy who lives in MA and is as big a beer geek as I know, to smell it and he said it just smelled “hoppy” to him??? It was straight sulphuric/vegetal matter to me.

US05 doesn’t really have biotransformation properties so there is literally no reason to add hops during fermentation. If you’re fermenting in a bucket and want to mitigate O2 wait until the very very end of fermentation and dump them in quickly, maybe purge the head space with some Co2.

 

[stefan646]

Sounds like astringency not bitterness... ph issues and/or tannins from the grains

I hope you are wrong ) - the only way to find out is to wait to see how the beer tastes in the end
SRJHops - I mash at a precise 67C using BIAB, so no sparge. I will buy some pH strips as their are cheap, so we will see if the PH is the problem
couchsending - I will think about it, and see if I could make a compromise between oxidation, diacetyl and mercaptans

EDIT: I just found a water report for my city : 7,26 PH

 

[JohnConnor]

Extended contact of hops and lots of yeast at higher temps has a tendency to produce lots of mercaptans. The hops will accelerate yeast death by coating the yeast cells with Alpha Acids and when they die they explode out all sorts of unpleasant stuff into your beer.

At low levels it’s what everyone describes as “overripe” fruit but at elevated levels it’s this rotting veg, cabbage, sulphuric compound. Some people are more sensitive to it than others. Whenever I added quantities of dry hops during fermentation I would get it in my final beer. I get it in lots of commercial “NEIPAs” and even the best. When I did my last beercation through New England I got it in a few Treehouse beers and it was really bad in the one Bissell I had on tap at the brewery. The Bissell was incredibly strong to me but I asked my buddy who lives in MA and is as big a beer geek as I know, to smell it and he said it just smelled “hoppy” to him??? It was straight sulphuric/vegetal matter to me.

US05 doesn’t really have biotransformation properties so there is literally no reason to add hops during fermentation. If you’re fermenting in a bucket and want to mitigate O2 wait until the very very end of fermentation and dump them in quickly, maybe purge the head space with some Co2.

Wow thank you for this. A lot of IPA's these days smell and taste like tomato sauce to me. It's totally off putting. But my wife, brother and friend have no clue what I'm talking about, think things taste hoppy too.

 

[leesmith]

I usually make recipes that have a total of 1 oz hops and taste them before going to fermenter because I had some problem with scorching(I don't have it anymore with the new heating element). They all taste bitter, but this NEIPA taste poisonous bitter [emoji1]
I added all 6 oz of hops after the worth reached 160 F as per OP instructions, make a short whirlpool with the spoon then let it cool in the kettle overnight.
In the meantime I also decided to leave it this way with a higher ABV

I wonder what kind of flavors 6oz of hops along with all the kettle trub left to cool overnight could produce....

Next time rack the beer off the kettle trub into a food safe, heat proof vessel to cool.

That would be the first thing I would recommend if your going to continue doing no chill.

 

[SRJHops]

Extended contact of hops and lots of yeast at higher temps has a tendency to produce lots of mercaptans. The hops will accelerate yeast death by coating the yeast cells with Alpha Acids and when they die they explode out all sorts of unpleasant stuff into your beer.

At low levels it’s what everyone describes as “overripe” fruit but at elevated levels it’s this rotting veg, cabbage, sulphuric compound. Some people are more sensitive to it than others. Whenever I added quantities of dry hops during fermentation I would get it in my final beer. I get it in lots of commercial “NEIPAs” and even the best. When I did my last beercation through New England I got it in a few Treehouse beers and it was really bad in the one Bissell I had on tap at the brewery. The Bissell was incredibly strong to me but I asked my buddy who lives in MA and is as big a beer geek as I know, to smell it and he said it just smelled “hoppy” to him??? It was straight sulphuric/vegetal matter to me.

US05 doesn’t really have biotransformation properties so there is literally no reason to add hops during fermentation. If you’re fermenting in a bucket and want to mitigate O2 wait until the very very end of fermentation and dump them in quickly, maybe purge the head space with some Co2.

Agree that 04 is the better call for dried yeast, but I've never heard that 05 doesn't biotransform. Interesting...

I guess it makes sense that some yeasts that don't "biotransform" well. Does that mean that 1318 and Conan/Juice biotransform the best?