New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[InspectorJon]

Just put my Citra/Amarillo IPA into the fermentor. Everything went well except I forgot the water additions. Preboil gravity was 1.053 instead of 1.055 so mash did did not seem to be affected much. Should I just go ahead and dissolve the CC and Gyp in a small amount of water and add to the primary? For what it is worth my water is very soft, almost like RO water.

 

[TBryerton]

@ttuato and others that saw a post I made this past summer about a keg dropping completely clear. My first theory was using malted wheat verse my traditional bill. Then I started to think it was due to moving my keg in the car to the bev center to can, theory was that the proteins that flocced got resuspended and attracted more proteins to them and dropped more out. This theory seemed like a stretch but this weekend I moved a keg of a sour double ipa and just took my first pour from it since then and it is absolutely clear. Looks like resuspending trub can cause a beer to drop clear.

11-27-19
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That’s absurd. I never would have guessed that’s the same beer. Good to know.

 

[TBryerton]

Is the biotransformation hops really not key to getting the haze? Really want to skip this step in my next brew but worried I'll end up with a clearer beer.

Have you ever had an Other Half IPA? Doesn’t get any hazier than that and they DH after fermentation

 

[beervoid]

@ttuato and others that saw a post I made this past summer about a keg dropping completely clear. My first theory was using malted wheat verse my traditional bill. Then I started to think it was due to moving my keg in the car to the bev center to can, theory was that the proteins that flocced got resuspended and attracted more proteins to them and dropped more out. This theory seemed like a stretch but this weekend I moved a keg of a sour double ipa and just took my first pour from it since then and it is absolutely clear. Looks like resuspending trub can cause a beer to drop clear.

11-27-19
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Can you share the grainbill?
What was you KO PH?
What was end of fermentation PH (pre dry hop)?
How much dry hops?
How long did you cold crash before transfer?

 

[Dgallo]

Can you share the grainbill?
What was you KO PH?
What was end of fermentation PH (pre dry hop)?
How much dry hops?
How long did you cold crash before transfer?

2row, Carapils, malted oats, honey malt

Ko-5.2 then dropped immediately 4.5 before pitching the culture and yeast.

After the fruit fermented out ph was 3.5/3.6 which was my last reading I took.

Dryhopped with 6 oz of galaxy after 36 hour crash. Then 36 hour crash before racking to the keg

 

[stickyfinger]

This is pretty interesting. I don't move my kegs very often so do not have any experience with this myself, but would be very curious to hear if others have experienced this.

My first thought is wouldn't this occur in commercial cans as well since they often get moved around? Maybe we don't notice it as we drink them before they are old enough to drop the proteins to the bottom.

commercial cans should pour clear if you gently handle them. i always invert my cans and kegs before serving to prevent losing hop flavor

 

[beervoid]

2row, Carapils, malted oats, honey malt

Ko-5.2 then dropped immediately 4.5 before pitching the culture and yeast.

After the fruit fermented out ph was 3.5/3.6 which was my last reading I took.

Dryhopped with 6 oz of galaxy after 36 hour crash. Then 36 hour crash before racking to the keg

I havent had many hazy sours. Wondering if commercial examples hold up good haze.
Did you make more hazy sours and did they stay hazy?

 

[kevink]

Is the biotransformation hops really not key to getting the haze? Really want to skip this step in my next brew but worried I'll end up with a clearer beer.

"Biotransformation" is definitely not the key to a hazy IPA and not even necessary to brew a killer NEIPA. I tried it a few times and never bother with it anymore.

 

[aaronm13]

Have you ever had an Other Half IPA? Doesn’t get any hazier than that and they DH after fermentation

I have and their beers are incredible. I'm definitely going to try this. It's one less process to worry about too. I'll close transfer to a keg after fermentation and start the dry hopping. Zero chance of oxygen this way too.

 

[murphyslaw]

@ttuato and others that saw a post I made this past summer about a keg dropping completely clear. My first theory was using malted wheat verse my traditional bill. Then I started to think it was due to moving my keg in the car to the bev center to can, theory was that the proteins that flocced got resuspended and attracted more proteins to them and dropped more out. This theory seemed like a stretch but this weekend I moved a keg of a sour double ipa and just took my first pour from it since then and it is absolutely clear. Looks like resuspending trub can cause a beer to drop clear.

11-27-19
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12/05/19
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Interesting stuff.

I recall reading that some people flip their keg to revive hop flavor. Not something I've ever felt I needed to do. But I wonder if those who do that ever experienced this.

 

[murphyslaw]

commercial cans should pour clear if you gently handle them. i always invert my cans and kegs before serving to prevent losing hop flavor

Ever notice it causing them to drop clear?

 

[stickyfinger]

yes, the kegs drop pretty clear when you use keg inversion and let it rest a few days.

 

[echoALEia]

@ttuato and others that saw a post I made this past summer about a keg dropping completely clear. My first theory was using malted wheat verse my traditional bill. Then I started to think it was due to moving my keg in the car to the bev center to can, theory was that the proteins that flocced got resuspended and attracted more proteins to them and dropped more out. This theory seemed like a stretch but this weekend I moved a keg of a sour double ipa and just took my first pour from it since then and it is absolutely clear. Looks like resuspending trub can cause a beer to drop clear.

11-27-19
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12/05/19
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The same exact thing happened to me when I did a sour ipa, and I attributed it to me kettle souring for too long (maybe the lacto breaks down proteins?? Just a guess) but never retried it to confirm it. I left it for 3-4 days I think.

 

[Dgallo]

The same exact thing happened to me when I did a sour ipa, and I attributed it to me kettle souring for too long (maybe the lacto breaks down proteins?? Just a guess) but never retried it to confirm it. I left it for 3-4 days I think.

This is the second time it’s happened to me but the first time was a NEIPA not a sour. Both times I had to move the keg after they were on tap for at least 3 weeks and then within a week of the move the beers dropped completely clear. I would say I brewed at least 60 NEIPAS and 10 Sour IPAs and it’s literally the only two times it’s happened.

Your theory could be entirely possible based on specific grain bills. I personally wouldn’t think it would have anything to do with the lacto breaking down proteins because that would cause them to become smaller and have less molecular weight, meaning they’re have an easier time remaining in suspension. But I could see the the ph or lacto itself having some effect on the clarity of a beer.

I’m going to put my theory ofmoving a keg and resuspending trub can cause it to clear to the test on the next beer I do and see if it holds water

 

[beervoid]

This is the second time it’s happened to me but the first time was a NEIPA not a sour. Both times I had to move the keg after they were on tap for at least 3 weeks and then within a week of the move the beers dropped completely clear. I would say I brewed at least 60 NEIPAS and 10 Sour IPAs and it’s literally the only two times it’s happened.

Your theory could be entirely possible based on specific grain bills. I personally wouldn’t think it would have anything to do with the lacto breaking down proteins because that would cause them to become smaller and have less molecular weight, meaning they’re have an easier time remaining in suspension. But I could see the the ph or lacto itself having some effect on the clarity of a beer.

I’m going to put my theory ofmoving a keg and resuspending trub can cause it to clear to the test on the next beer I do and see if it holds water

There is research on PH and haze stability floating around. Its about wheat beers if I recall correctly.
I think the sweetspot for optimal stable haze formation is around between 4 and 4.5

 

[beervoid]

For example.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2004.tb00203.x

Notice in table 2. The beer with the highest turbity has a PH of 4.3.

I cant find the presentation on the subject currently, it has a more clear oversight.

 

[echoALEia]

This is the second time it’s happened to me but the first time was a NEIPA not a sour. Both times I had to move the keg after they were on tap for at least 3 weeks and then within a week of the move the beers dropped completely clear. I would say I brewed at least 60 NEIPAS and 10 Sour IPAs and it’s literally the only two times it’s happened.

Your theory could be entirely possible based on specific grain bills. I personally wouldn’t think it would have anything to do with the lacto breaking down proteins because that would cause them to become smaller and have less molecular weight, meaning they’re have an easier time remaining in suspension. But I could see the the ph or lacto itself having some effect on the clarity of a beer.

I’m going to put my theory ofmoving a keg and resuspending trub can cause it to clear to the test on the next beer I do and see if it holds water

Good point! I’ll have to test that with my next batch. My old response to that is when I pour a can of monkish or treehouse they are more like the first pour and that’s after agitation. So would a lower pH clarify the beer more?

 

[ihavenonickname]

Dry hop with 4oz Citra, 2oz Sabro?
Or sub the sabro out for Vic secret or galaxy?

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Have you ever had an Other Half IPA? Doesn’t get any hazier than that and they DH after fermentation

OH do DH during fermentation- they just don’t do it during peak fermentation. Sam is interviewed in the Craft Beer & Brewing podcast and explains he does this because it let’s him harvest some of the yeast before dry hop but he also specifically says he DHs before all the fermentation is done so as to achieve some biotransformation.

I’m not claiming for a minute that this causes the haze but it is an approach that personally I like. Let’s me harvest some yeast and leaves some fermentation to scrub the oxygen that my clumsy self undoubtedly introduces during DH!

 

[Dgallo]

OH do DH during fermentation- they just don’t do it during peak fermentation. Sam is interviewed in the Craft Beer & Brewing podcast and explains he does this because it let’s him harvest some of the yeast before dry hop but he also specifically says he DHs before all the fermentation is done so as to achieve some biotransformation.

I’m not claiming for a minute that this causes the haze but it is an approach that personally I like. Let’s me harvest some yeast and leaves some fermentation to scrub the oxygen that my clumsy self undoubtedly introduces during DH!

Do you have the link to that? Because that is not what was stated by him in his part of Janishs book.

Wondering which one is more recent to know which one he switched to.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I did a hazy IPA recently that was out of this world. I'd post a picture but the keg got completely cleared at a party this weekend. It was supposed to be a pale ale but OG/attenuation left it at about 6.5% so more in IPA territory. My MO for my pale ales where I don't use a 2nd dry hop keg has been to do the dry hop at about 2.5-3 days at the end of fermentation and cap with a spunding valve, in hopes the end of fermentation will help purge the O2.

Anyways, this beer was unreal on hop flavor saturation and aroma. There's a brewery nearby that makes a really good citra session IPA and people thought I had gotten a keg of that although mine had way more aroma. It was my first time using cryo in the dry hop(1 oz of citra cryo) and I'm going to attribute it to that. I've previously used some in whirlpool but didn't get the same intense flavor. Can't wait to experiment more with other varieties of the cryo in the dry hop, if you haven't tried the stuff yet get some.

 

[TBryerton]

Do you have the link to that? Because that is not what was stated by him in his part of Janishs book.

Wondering which one is more recent to know which one he switched to.

The tank log posted on the OH clone thread also indicates they DH post fermentation. I believe the podcast he is referring to is from Feb. - so relatively recent.

 

[popquizkid]

I did a hazy IPA recently that was out of this world. I'd post a picture but the keg got completely cleared at a party this weekend. It was supposed to be a pale ale but OG/attenuation left it at about 6.5% so more in IPA territory. My MO for my pale ales where I don't use a 2nd dry hop keg has been to do the dry hop at about 2.5-3 days at the end of fermentation and cap with a spunding valve, in hopes the end of fermentation will help purge the O2.

Anyways, this beer was unreal on hop flavor saturation and aroma. There's a brewery nearby that makes a really good citra session IPA and people thought I had gotten a keg of that although mine had way more aroma. It was my first time using cryo in the dry hop(1 oz of citra cryo) and I'm going to attribute it to that. I've previously used some in whirlpool but didn't get the same intense flavor. Can't wait to experiment more with other varieties of the cryo in the dry hop, if you haven't tried the stuff yet get some.

Was your dry hop cryo only? Or a mix of cryo and pellets?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Was your dry hop cryo only? Or a mix of cryo and pellets?

I had some Simcoe and Idaho 7 regular pellets in the whirlpool and dry hop. They may have added some complexity but the flavor was extremely Citra dominant

 

[ttuato]

Still taste great. It was a lactose, passion fruit, Vanilla bean, and Galaxy Dryhopped Sour Double ipa at 7.8% abv. Body is lacking some for sure but if you didn’t have it originally, you wouldn’t think there’s anything off with the body

I am traveling now so I cannot post a pic but I echo these findings. I have two beers on tap at home now - both fermented with A24 (thanks for recommendation @Dgallo), same grain bill w/ malted oats but different hops - both used heavy dryhops (1.75oz/gal) at FG after soft crash, both were super hazy and full bodied. One keg is on the top shelf of my kegerator the other is on the bottom in front of my CO2 tank. The CO2 tank blew around week four for each of these kegs. I had to move the one on bottom a few times to get my CO2 tank changed. Within a week the bottom keg showed noticeable clearing, by two weeks this beer was clear just like shown above while the other that was not moved retains the haze and full body.

 

[aaronm13]

Had a bit of a eureka/oh **** moment yesterday when I was kegging my session IPA. Don't want to side track this thread but it is in relation to my dry hopping process for these neipas.

Since I started kegging I've dry hopped in a keg then close transfer to the serving keg to minimize o2. All the guides I found when starting said to go liquid to liquid post and open the prv on the receiving keg to get the flow going. I've been doing this for a good while now. While kegging yesterday I had a bit of a disaster and the transfer took well over an hour but in this time it finally hit me that with the prv open I'm effectively blowing out all the aroma of me beers.

I've really struggled with poor aroma in my beers and considering the amount of hops I use this should not be an issue. It hit me that I should be connecting gas to gas to on both kegs which would keep the aroma within the kegs. I can't find much information about this online. I've seen a few mentions of doing this with an Ss Brewtec bucket which I use. I did a dry run with water in my bucket and it flowed perfectly into the keg. I don't have a spare keg at the moment to see if this idea will work from keg to keg.

Also am I over complicating things by dry hopping in a keg? Should I had all my hop additions directly into the fermenter? I double dry hop so this would mean opening the fermenter twice. I like the idea of dry hopping in the keg but if I'm blowing out all the aroma it's pretty counter productive and a waste of money.

Can anyone shed some light on these ideas and what process you use for your dry hopping.

 

[jjw5015]

Had a bit of a eureka/oh fudge moment yesterday when I was kegging my session IPA. Don't want to side track this thread but it is in relation to my dry hopping process for these neipas.

Since I started kegging I've dry hopped in a keg then close transfer to the serving keg to minimize o2. All the guides I found when starting said to go liquid to liquid post and open the prv on the receiving keg to get the flow going. I've been doing this for a good while now. While kegging yesterday I had a bit of a disaster and the transfer took well over an hour but in this time it finally hit me that with the prv open I'm effectively blowing out all the aroma of me beers.

I've really struggled with poor aroma in my beers and considering the amount of hops I use this should not be an issue. It hit me that I should be connecting gas to gas to on both kegs which would keep the aroma within the kegs. I can't find much information about this online. I've seen a few mentions of doing this with an Ss Brewtec bucket which I use. I did a dry run with water in my bucket and it flowed perfectly into the keg. I don't have a spare keg at the moment to see if this idea will work from keg to keg.

Also am I over complicating things by dry hopping in a keg? Should I had all my hop additions directly into the fermenter? I double dry hop so this would mean opening the fermenter twice. I like the idea of dry hopping in the keg but if I'm blowing out all the aroma it's pretty counter productive and a waste of money.

Can anyone shed some light on these ideas and what process you use for your dry hopping.

So connect liquid to liquid and gas to gas to make a loop? How are you going to push the liquid then?

 

[Dgallo]

Had a bit of a eureka/oh fudge moment yesterday when I was kegging my session IPA. Don't want to side track this thread but it is in relation to my dry hopping process for these neipas.

Since I started kegging I've dry hopped in a keg then close transfer to the serving keg to minimize o2. All the guides I found when starting said to go liquid to liquid post and open the prv on the receiving keg to get the flow going. I've been doing this for a good while now. While kegging yesterday I had a bit of a disaster and the transfer took well over an hour but in this time it finally hit me that with the prv open I'm effectively blowing out all the aroma of me beers.

I've really struggled with poor aroma in my beers and considering the amount of hops I use this should not be an issue. It hit me that I should be connecting gas to gas to on both kegs which would keep the aroma within the kegs. I can't find much information about this online. I've seen a few mentions of doing this with an Ss Brewtec bucket which I use. I did a dry run with water in my bucket and it flowed perfectly into the keg. I don't have a spare keg at the moment to see if this idea will work from keg to keg.

Also am I over complicating things by dry hopping in a keg? Should I had all my hop additions directly into the fermenter? I double dry hop so this would mean opening the fermenter twice. I like the idea of dry hopping in the keg but if I'm blowing out all the aroma it's pretty counter productive and a waste of money.

Can anyone shed some light on these ideas and what process you use for your dry hopping.

I’m thinking you made a typo because co2 to co2 would not transfer and if it did transfer you would still need to open the pressure relief valve or you wouldn’t be able to rack to your serving keg anyway.

Aroma issues could be a few issues, serving temperature too cold locking up the compounds, too low of a carb level so the aroma isn’t bursting from the glass, oxidation, beer needs to condition further , and/oxidation. It could also be dryhop quantity and quality. So it’s tough to say. That being said, racking a non carbonated beer to a serving keg with the pressure relief valve open will not be the cause of that. Every beer that ever makes its way to a can, or keg must have this happen.

 

[aaronm13]

How are you going to get the liquid out of the keg by connecting to both gas posts?

If both kegs have say 10 psi of pressure with
equilibrium, pull the prv valve initially to get the flow going then attach the gas to gas hose. Would this be enough to keep the flow going or would you need a splitter on the full keg so you could attach the co2 feed to keep pressure going. As I said I don't have a spare keg to try this out

 

[aaronm13]

I’m thinking you made a typo because co2 to co2 would not transfer and if it did transfer you would still need to open the pressure relief valve or you wouldn’t be able to rack to your serving keg anyway

Ok so. I got the idea wrong. So you just open the prv on your keg when doing a transfer?

 

[Loud Brewing]

Forget keg to keg transfers, its like secondary, completely unneeded imo. Focus on good oxy free etiquette when purging the keg using a FULL keg of star san, push it all out and purge then do your closed transfer.I have done transfers with minimal pulling of the prv, it just depends on how much psi your fermenter can handle.

Im not a big fan of keg hops, I dont like the beer sitting on the hops for the life of the keg. If you really want aroma to pop, make sure you have good fresh hops and dryhop after you drop your yeast. Do a soft cold crash, allow to return to room temp and then dryhop the hell out of it. That way your aroma doenst gas off during fermentation and the yeast doesnt strip the oils.

 

[Genuine]

I think having the PRV open is more so to allow the liquid transfer to happen, otherwise you'll have a hard time with all that CO2 not being displaced by the beer. And, if you do Gas to Gas post, you won't be able to transfer any beer since the gas post is so short.

 

[Dgallo]

Ok so. I got the idea wrong. So you just open the prv on your keg when doing a transfer?

Yes. I updated my last post to you aswell

 

[Loud Brewing]

Ok so. I got the idea wrong. So you just open the prv on your keg when doing a transfer?

Recently I have been using a spunding valve during transfers. This will help minimize any 02 that might want to sneak back in the prv by keeping a set psi in the keg, as well as allowing you to walk away

 

[aaronm13]

Forget keg to keg transfers, its like secondary, completely unneeded imo. Focus on good oxy free etiquette when purging the keg using a FULL keg of star san, push it all out and purge then do your closed transfer.I have done transfers with minimal pulling of the prv, it just depends on how much psi your fermenter can handle.

Im not a big fan of keg hops, I dont like the beer sitting on the hops for the life of the keg. If you really want aroma to pop, make sure you have good fresh hops and dryhop after you drop your yeast. Do a soft cold crash, allow to return to room temp and then dryhop the hell out of it. That way your aroma doenst gas off during fermentation and the yeast doesnt strip the oils.

Thanks for that. So do you so all your hopping in the fermenter? I leaning towards this myself for my next attempt as I know I'm blowing out all my hop aroma. I'm just going through process of elimination and this just seemed so obvious to me yesterday. If I can get away with double dry hopping in the fermenter it will reduce some steps for me. My SS Brewtec bucket can take a couple of psi so should be enough.

 

[aaronm13]

I’m thinking you made a typo because co2 to co2 would not transfer and if it did transfer you would still need to open the pressure relief valve or you wouldn’t be able to rack to your serving keg anyway.

Aroma issues could be a few issues, serving temperature too cold locking up the compounds, too low of a carb level so the aroma isn’t bursting from the glass, oxidation, beer needs to condition further , and/oxidation. It could also be dryhop quantity and quality. So it’s tough to say. That being said, racking a non carbonated beer to a serving keg with the pressure relief valve open will not be the cause of that. Every beer that ever makes its way to a can, or keg must have this happen.

Thanks Dgallo. I've been working my way through those points you list for the last while. Poor hops was definitely an issue for me before but I've started getting hops from Yakima Valley and they're so much better that the rubbish I can buy here.

 

[Loud Brewing]

Thanks for that. So do you so all your hopping in the fermenter? I leaning towards this myself for my next attempt as I know I'm blowing out all my hop aroma. I'm just going through process of elimination and this just seemed so obvious to me yesterday. If I can get away with double dry hopping in the fermenter it will reduce some steps for me. My SS Brewtec bucket can take a couple of psi so should be enough.

For my neipas I typically do both a bio transformation hop (during active ferm, day 2-3) and a post ferm dryhop. But lately I have been combining the dosages and just doing the post ferm dryhop and have noticed an increase in both flavor and aroma. Just be sure to avoid introducing any oxygen since you will have already completed fermentation. This is one reason why I really like the fermzilla, oxy free dryhopping.

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Do you have the link to that? Because that is not what was stated by him in his part of Janishs book.

Wondering which one is more recent to know which one he switched to.

very true - i checked the Janish book before I replied actually because I initially thought that’s where I’d heard that. From rechecking the book Sam/OH doesn’t give any exact hopping timings in it; does he? Certainly not in the summary given by him in the Other Half section in the back of the book. Unless he (Sam) specifies precise hopping detail in the main bulk of the book and I’ve forgotten? Although I’m obsessed with their beers so expect that would be the bit I’d hone in on!

Anyways. Here’s the link. Gets to the hopping detail from approx 18mins from memory.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5peKLOJzqcBjsg91Ttuxd1?si=M5KJRp7cRJ-_5k-5_2kmxg

 

[cheesebach]

If both kegs have say 10 psi of pressure with
equilibrium, pull the prv valve initially to get the flow going then attach the gas to gas hose. Would this be enough to keep the flow going or would you need a splitter on the full keg so you could attach the co2 feed to keep pressure going. As I said I don't have a spare keg to try this out

No need for the splitter or to apply CO2 to keep the transfer going after you get it going. As long as you don't have anything in suspension that could clog the poppets/posts during the transfer, you just need to get the siphon going and then connect gas-to-gas like you said. You do need to make sure that your receiving keg is below your fermenting/secondary keg in order for this to work though, since gravity is what keeps it going.

 

[Loud Brewing]

No need for the splitter or to apply CO2 to keep the transfer going after you get it going. As long as you don't have anything in suspension that could clog the poppets/posts during the transfer, you just need to get the siphon going and then connect gas-to-gas like you said. You do need to make sure that your receiving keg is below your fermenting/secondary keg in order for this to work though, since gravity is what keeps it going.

I think what he was trying to say is if he does NOT pull the prv. You will definitely need to pressurize the fermenter if you dont want to pull prv or you can run a spunding valve at a slightly lower psi than the fermenter. This has worked great for me.