New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Dgallo]

very true - i checked the Janish book before I replied actually because I initially thought that’s where I’d heard that. From rechecking the book Sam/OH doesn’t give any exact hopping timings in it; does he? Certainly not in the summary given by him in the Other Half section in the back of the book. Unless he (Sam) specifies precise hopping detail in the main bulk of the book and I’ve forgotten? Although I’m obsessed with their beers so expect that would be the bit I’d hone in on!

Anyways. Here’s the link. Gets to the hopping detail from approx 18mins from memory.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5peKLOJzqcBjsg91Ttuxd1?si=M5KJRp7cRJ-_5k-5_2kmxg

Thanks brother. Yeah he only talks about dryhoping, I find it typical that if a dryhop is done during fermentation for bio reason, most brewers will state it. That why I was interested in your post because he never mentioned fermentation dryhoping in Janish’s book, which is a topic Janish has hit on previously. So I just figure it would be mentioned there if it was there preference.

This is on topic but at the same off topic but a interesting story none the less. 3 years ago for our honey moon my wife and I went out to San Fran and the surrounding areas for 5 days before we went to cabo for the remainder of it. The first I’ve ever heard of biotransfermation dryhoping was on that trip at the famous Russian River brewery. We got extremely lucky and Vinny was actually there that night and let me tell you, he is a true gentleman. I introduced myself and told him we came all the way from new your and specifically made our honeymoon so we could stop and try Pliny and blind pig. He ended up taking us on a tour, comping our drinks and meal, like that wasn’t enough, when I mention I was a brand new homebrewer he goes “I’m going to tell you about something new we’re working on... all I can say is, don’t be afraid that dryhoping during fermentation.” He didn’t know me from Adam, and even though I’ve moved away from doing them, Ive always thought it was so cool he was the one that told me about it.

 

[aaronm13]

For my neipas I typically do both a bio transformation hop (during active ferm, day 2-3) and a post ferm dryhop. But lately I have been combining the dosages and just doing the post ferm dryhop and have noticed an increase in both flavor and aroma. Just be sure to avoid introducing any oxygen since you will have already completed fermentation. This is one reason why I really like the fermzilla, oxy free dryhopping.

I love the look of the Fermzilla and very tempted by it, especially the jar at the bottom for adding hops. Only thing holding me back is it wouldn't fit into my under counter fridge. If I came home with a bigger fridge I'm likely to face a divorce.

 

[aaronm13]

No need for the splitter or to apply CO2 to keep the transfer going after you get it going. As long as you don't have anything in suspension that could clog the poppets/posts during the transfer, you just need to get the siphon going and then connect gas-to-gas like you said. You do need to make sure that your receiving keg is below your fermenting/secondary keg in order for this to work though, since gravity is what keeps it going.

Never thought about having the receiving keg lower. So if I put the full keg on a counter top and the empty keg on the floor the transfer should happen? I'd need to pull the prv at the start to get things flowing but once it starts I could close it then attach the gas posts

 

[Loud Brewing]

Never thought about having the receiving keg lower. So if I put the full keg on a counter top and the empty keg on the floor the transfer should happen? I'd need to pull the prv at the start to get things flowing but once it starts I could close it then attach the gas posts

As you transfer, pressure will be lower in the receiving keg and siphon will occur, but once pressure increases during filling, the receiving keg will reach equilibrium and pressure will need to be increased in the push keg/fermenter in order to keep the flow going.
That is what's nice about using a spunding valve on the recieving keg. You can adjust it to bleed off before reaching equilibrium

 

[Loud Brewing]

Thanks brother. Yeah he only talks about dryhoping, I find it typical that if a dryhop is done during fermentation for bio reason, most brewers will state it. That why I was interested in your post because he never mentioned fermentation dryhoping in Janish’s book, which is a topic Janish has hit on previously. So I just figure it would be mentioned there if it was there preference.

This is on topic but at the same off topic but a interesting story none the less. 3 years ago for our honey moon my wife and I went out to San Fran and the surrounding areas for 5 days before we went to cabo for the remainder of it. The first I’ve ever heard of biotransfermation dryhoping was on that trip at the famous Russian River brewery. We got extremely lucky and Vinny was actually there that night and let me tell you, he is a true gentleman. I introduced myself and told him we came all the way from new your and specifically made our honeymoon so we could stop and try Pliny and blind pig. He ended up taking us on a tour, comping our drinks and meal, like that wasn’t enough, when I mention I was a brand new homebrewer he goes “I’m going to tell you about something new we’re working on... all I can say is, don’t be afraid that dryhoping during fermentation.” He didn’t know me from Adam, and even though I’ve moved away from doing them, Ive always thought it was so cool he was the one that told me about it.

Wow what a great experience bro. I have read several times about him being very forthcoming with his techniques which is pretty darn cool. It seems like Vinny is one of those guys who loves to share information and do things his own way. I recently heard on a podcast that they still introduce hops by hand at the top of each of their fermenters which really surprised me.

 

[Dgallo]

Wow what a great experience bro. I have read several times about him being very forthcoming with his techniques which is pretty darn cool. It seems like Vinny is one of those guys who loves to share information and do things his own way. I recently heard on a podcast that they still introduce hops by hand at the top of each of their fermenters which really surprised me.

Not a Dinner party with legitimate beer enthusiast goes by without us bringing up the story lol

 

[BeerFst]

Never thought about having the receiving keg lower. So if I put the full keg on a counter top and the empty keg on the floor the transfer should happen? I'd need to pull the prv at the start to get things flowing but once it starts I could close it then attach the gas posts

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/pressurized-closed-loop-corny-keg-fermenting.600563/

Read thru this one, it covers quite a bit of what you are independently discovering.

 

[cheesebach]

As you transfer, pressure will be lower in the receiving keg and siphon will occur, but once pressure increases during filling, the receiving keg will reach equilibrium and pressure will need to be increased in the push keg/fermenter in order to keep the flow going.
That is what's nice about using a spunding valve on the recieving keg. You can adjust it to bleed off before reaching equilibrium

That’s not quite correct though, assuming he’s connecting gas-to-gas after the flow has started (and not allowing the pressure in the receiving keg to rise above that in the sending keg. Initially, you do need a lower pressure in the receiving keg to start the flow of beer from one to the other. And the pressure does equalize between the sending/receiving keg, but the siphon is self-sustaining at that point, and it will continue to flow until it empties the sending keg (or clogs). I’ve been using this method for over a year now thanks to the thread that’s mentioned in a comment above mine.

Again, this uses gravity to maintain the siphon, so you need sending keg above the receiving one. The more height difference between them, usually the faster the speed. I have about a 3-foot height differential where I set up mine.

 

[Loud Brewing]

That’s not quite correct though, assuming he’s connecting gas-to-gas after the flow has started (and not allowing the pressure in the receiving keg to rise above that in the sending keg. Initially, you do need a lower pressure in the receiving keg to start the flow of beer from one to the other. And the pressure does equalize between the sending/receiving keg, but the siphon is self-sustaining at that point, and it will continue to flow until it empties the sending keg (or clogs). I’ve been using this method for over a year now thanks to the thread that’s mentioned in a comment above mine.

Again, this uses gravity to maintain the siphon, so you need sending keg above the receiving one. The more height difference between them, usually the faster the speed. I have about a 3-foot height differential where I set up mine.

You are absolutely correct, my mistake. I missed the part about linking the gas to gas line, as that c02 has to go somewhere! This method will save some gas on transfer too which is always a bonus.

 

[aaronm13]

Thanks for all the advice and tips last night guys, really appreciate it. Definitely food for thought anyway on some of my processes. Can't wait to try them out on my next brew.

 

[stickyfinger]

you can always try the closed loop transfer and if it stops flowing just push it over with CO2 and release the prv a few times. i’ve had the flow stop at least once doing the gravity feed...

 

[ttuato]

No need for the splitter or to apply CO2 to keep the transfer going after you get it going. As long as you don't have anything in suspension that could clog the poppets/posts during the transfer, you just need to get the siphon going and then connect gas-to-gas like you said. You do need to make sure that your receiving keg is below your fermenting/secondary keg in order for this to work though, since gravity is what keeps it going.

@aaronm13

Here is the directions to follow to ferment in keg and do keg to keg transfer. It explains the process that @cheesebach mentions:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/pressurized-closed-loop-corny-keg-fermenting.600563/

 

[Hannabrew]

So what you're all saying is that I should invert my spunded lager kegs to get brilliant clarity?!

 

[kevink]

What size TC does it neck down to? It looks small. Are you worried about the hops getting jammed up in it?

So I finally used this thing. I dry hopped my beer with ~2.5 pounds of pellets and it worked perfectly. I pulled 30" Hg in the chamber with the vacuum pump and pressurized it with 20 psi CO2 four times (suck, pressurize, suck, pressurize, suck, pressurize, suck, pressurize) before dumping the hops. I may tweak that part of the process, but I think it's probably about as good as it's going to get. It's probably not even necessary to put that much CO2 pressure on it during the purge when pulling that much vacuum, but it made me feel good and CO2 is cheap.

 

[Dgallo]

So I finally used this thing. I dry hopped my beer with ~2.5 pounds of pellets and it worked perfectly. I pulled 30" Hg in the chamber with the vacuum pump and pressurized it with 20 psi CO2 four times (suck, pressurize, suck, pressurize, suck, pressurize, suck, pressurize) before dumping the hops. I may tweak that part of the process, but I think it's probably about as good as it's going to get. It's probably not even necessary to put that much CO2 pressure on it during the purge when pulling that much vacuum, but it made me feel good and CO2 is cheap.

40oz dryhop for 5 gallons?

 

[kevink]

40oz dryhop for 5 gallons?

No man, there's about 13 gallons in there.

 

[beervoid]

No man, there's about 13 gallons in there.

Are you planning to do a side by side beer vs dry hopping "traditionally" through the top?
Would be curious to know if it is worth the effort.

 

[kevink]

Are you planning to do a side by side beer vs dry hopping "traditionally" through the top?
Would be curious to know if it is worth the effort.

Honestly, no. I'm not. I would never be able to brew a beer and hop it this way then brew another beer and hop it "normally" and test them because they would be different ages with other subtle differences. How do you know every other variable between the beers was exactly the same? You would never know what was responsible for the difference if there was one. I would need two identical ferementation chambers, two identical fermenters, brew one huge batch and split it between the two fermenters, etc. Not going to happen, and even if I could do it, I wouldn't be interested because I already have enough evidence that less O2 is better. Every other little thing that I have done to eliminate O2 has been worth it, so I don't see the need. Doing it like this is a huge reduction in O2 when you're talking about healthy dry hop additions. Many of us are crazy about limiting O2 and do other things that are probably of less significance (all IMO, of course).

 

[Dgallo]

No man, there's about 13 gallons in there.

is that your typically dryhop rate?

Did you dryhop at lower rates previously and work your way up to that amount?

The reason I ask is I’ve personally never have that heavy so I can’t really speak on it, I used to be around 2oz per gallon and now I backed it off to 1.25-1.5 oz and feel I’m getting a clearner more hop variety specific profile. It also makes me feel confident since less pellets means less o2 that’s trapped in the pellets thenself to makes its way into the beer

 

[Dryyourbeers]

Thanks brother. Yeah he only talks about dryhoping, I find it typical that if a dryhop is done during fermentation for bio reason, most brewers will state it. That why I was interested in your post because he never mentioned fermentation dryhoping in Janish’s book, which is a topic Janish has hit on previously. So I just figure it would be mentioned there if it was there preference.

This is on topic but at the same off topic but a interesting story none the less. 3 years ago for our honey moon my wife and I went out to San Fran and the surrounding areas for 5 days before we went to cabo for the remainder of it. The first I’ve ever heard of biotransfermation dryhoping was on that trip at the famous Russian River brewery. We got extremely lucky and Vinny was actually there that night and let me tell you, he is a true gentleman. I introduced myself and told him we came all the way from new your and specifically made our honeymoon so we could stop and try Pliny and blind pig. He ended up taking us on a tour, comping our drinks and meal, like that wasn’t enough, when I mention I was a brand new homebrewer he goes “I’m going to tell you about something new we’re working on... all I can say is, don’t be afraid that dryhoping during fermentation.” He didn’t know me from Adam, and even though I’ve moved away from doing them, Ive always thought it was so cool he was the one that told me about it.

blimey! I’m considering getting married just so I can honeymoon there! Even longer trip from London too - who knows what that’s worth

 

[beervoid]

Honestly, no. I'm not. I would never be able to brew a beer and hop it this way then brew another beer and hop it "normally" and test them because they would be different ages with other subtle differences. How do you know every other variable between the beers was exactly the same? You would never know what was responsible for the difference if there was one. I would need two identical ferementation chambers, two identical fermenters, brew one huge batch and split it between the two fermenters, etc. Not going to happen, and even if I could do it, I wouldn't be interested because I already have enough evidence that less O2 is better. Every other little thing that I have done to eliminate O2 has been worth it, so I don't see the need. Doing it like this is a huge reduction in O2 when you're talking about healthy dry hop additions. Many of us are crazy about limiting O2 and do other things that are probably of less significance (all IMO, of course).

Fair enough. Not trying to criticise your engineering btw. It looks fantastic and im interested to build something similar.
A possible stronger flavor/aroma on the beer dry hopped with the hop doser could maybe be picked up. I ask cause I read a couple of times some pro's are just dumping through the top.

 

[kevink]

Fair enough. Not trying to criticise your engineering btw. It looks fantastic and im interested to build something similar.
A possible stronger flavor/aroma on the beer dry hopped with the hop doser could maybe be picked up. I ask cause I read a couple of times some pro's are just dumping through the top.

It's all good. Thanks! Pro brewers as just homebrewers who work on bigger systems and do it for a living. Just because they're pros doesn't mean they do everything in the best way possible. They need to brew quickly and cost effectively. When homebrewing, you can go over the top with everything because you don't have any pressure forcing you to do something that might not be optimal. That's just how I see it, anyway.

 

[ttuato]

I am traveling now so I cannot post a pic but I echo these findings. I have two beers on tap at home now - both fermented with A24 (thanks for recommendation @Dgallo), same grain bill w/ malted oats but different hops - both used heavy dryhops (1.75oz/gal) at FG after soft crash, both were super hazy and full bodied. One keg is on the top shelf of my kegerator the other is on the bottom in front of my CO2 tank. The CO2 tank blew around week four for each of these kegs. I had to move the one on bottom a few times to get my CO2 tank changed. Within a week the bottom keg showed noticeable clearing, by two weeks this beer was clear just like shown above while the other that was not moved retains the haze and full body.

here are pics - guess which keg was moved... These are now six weeks in keg.

80% TF - GP
12% Crisp malted oats
5% Chit malt
3% Honey malt

Also - these pours are about 6-7mins old. This foam only started happening when I began using chit malt. I know this foam can be achieved without chit (see foam brewers in VT - best ever saw) but I have not been able to do it on homebrew scale prior in NEIPA to using chit malt.

 

[beervoid]

here are pics - guess which keg was moved... These are now six weeks in keg.

80% TF - GP
12% Crisp malted oats
5% Chit malt
3% Honey malt

Also - these pours are about 6-7mins old. This foam only started happening when I began using chit malt. I know this foam can be achieved without chit (see foam brewers in VT - best ever saw) but I have not been able to do it on homebrew scale prior in NEIPA to using chit malt.

View attachment 656612

Im guessing the left one.
How long after moving does it clear?
I move my kegs regularly never had this problem.

 

[BeerFst]

Im guessing the left one.
How long after moving does it clear?
I move my kegs regularly never had this problem.

Do you use a top draw or normal dip tube pulling from the bottom? @ttuato same question for you. that might explain the difference here.

 

[Bklyn]

So I finally used this thing...

Wow! Thats a huge assemblage of gear. I'm not 100% sure I understand everything that is going on in this picture. Could you explain a bit about what is connecting to what? I'm guessing the black "KAF (?)" thing in the foreground is a vacuum pump? I think I can grok:

* Blowoff cane hooked to some tubing going down into a jar of san (that I'm sure of!)
* Some kind of dry-hopping rig on top of the fermenter with a 3-way (?) valve for adding gas and/or vacuum?

I dunno, I'm kinda lost, but this looks amazing!

 

[kevink]

Wow! Thats a huge assemblage of gear. I'm not 100% sure I understand everything that is going on in this picture. Could you explain a bit about what is connecting to what? I'm guessing the black "KAF (?)" thing in the foreground is a vacuum pump? I think I can grok:

* Blowoff cane hooked to some tubing going down into a jar of san (that I'm sure of!)
* Some kind of dry-hopping rig on top of the fermenter with a 3-way (?) valve for adding gas and/or vacuum?

I dunno, I'm kinda lost, but this looks amazing!

You're pretty much exactly right. The big sanitary valve stays on top of the fermenter throughout fermentation. When ready to dry hop, you attach the chamber to the valve and fill it with hops. You then pull vacuum and fill it with CO2 multiple times. When you're ready, you open the valve and the hops dump in. It effectively lets you add hops to the fermenter without ever opening it. It works kind of like an airlock on a spaceship.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

You're pretty much exactly right. The big sanitary valve stays on top of the fermenter throughout fermentation. When ready to dry hop, you attach the chamber to the valve and fill it with hops. You then pull vacuum and fill it with CO2 multiple times. When you're ready, you open the valve and the hops dump in. It effectively lets you add hops to the fermenter without ever opening it. It works kind of like an airlock on a spaceship.

Your contraption looks great @kevink . If it works for you, even better! Who says "size doesn't matter"?

 

[H20ENG]

It works kind of like an airlock on a spaceship.

"Open the hop-pod bay doors HAL"

 

[dogjam]

Is there consensus about overpitching vs. underpitching to maximize ester production in NEIPAs? Is it yeast-strain-dependent?

Is there consensus on adding yeast nutrient?

 

[couchsending]

There’s other variables to consider when it comes to pitch rates and IPAs. The guys that are really focused on making hoppy beer (WC or EC) have always advised to pitch the minimum amount that will still provide a healthy ferment. From John Kimmich to Julian Shrago, and Jeff Erway.... they have all been quoted as so. Erway uses Chico at like .4m/ml/*plato. I’ve seen pitch rates from Kimmich that are similar. Doesn’t have to do with esters as much as it does other variables.

Then I’ve also seen huge pitch rates from places like Cloudwater.

Psyched to get my 1/2bbl rig setup this winter finally. First variable I want to test is pitch rate. Gonna split into 3 FVs and try .4, .75, and 1.5. Hopefully put the microscope into play by then as well.

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

Is there a semi consensus recipe I can look to for guidance?

 

[MrPowers]

Is there a semi consensus recipe I can look to for guidance?

A good place to start is the revamped recipe linked from the first post:

Edit #2: For those looking for recent versions, updates, and my most recent/current version of how I am making this beer - you will find that information in post #5803 in this thread. The original recipe, and the #1418 update are both good as is... but I have shifted some of my practices, and also simplified/clarified some things in this original and #1418 post..... Please check out #5803 for updates/clarifications:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/page-146#post-8203827

The only major development that I have seen since this post is soft crashing before dry hopping.

Cold crash to 55-58 for 24 hours, drop out yeast, then add your dry hops and proceed as normal.

 

[Hannabrew]

A good place to start is the revamped recipe linked from the first post:



The only major development that I have seen since this post is soft crashing before dry hopping.

Cold crash to 55-58 for 24 hours, drop out yeast, then add your dry hops and proceed as normal.

So what's with all the other posts then?!?

[emoji6]

 

[Dgallo]

So what's with all the other posts then?!?

[emoji6]

Lol I thought the same. Yeast health, dryhoping, oxidation precautions, and soft crashing are all thing I feel came since then. No disrespect to brufesser by any means but I feel many of us landed on similar grain bills prior to this thread even coming out

 

[MrPowers]

Lol I thought the same. Yeast health, dryhoping, oxidation precautions, and soft crashing are all thing I feel came since then. No disrespect to brufesser by any means but I feel many of us landed on similar grain bills prior to this thread even coming out

I mean, there is a lot of good info in the thread since that post and a lot of data points for things that people have tried; but with no further context and no idea about current brewing practices of the person asking the question, that is the kind of the most recent "recipe".

For some, yeast health and oxidation management are just normal good brewing practices. For others, that is going to be very valuable information.

Of course, the simple fix is to just go back and read the thread!

 

[Dgallo]

I mean, there is a lot of good info in the thread since that post and a lot of data points for things that people have tried; but with no further context and no idea about current brewing practices of the person asking the question, that is the kind of the most recent "recipe".

For some, yeast health and oxidation management are just normal good brewing practices. For others, that is going to be very valuable information.

Of course, the simple fix is to just go back and read the thread!

True. Sorry I didn’t want to seem like I was going after you at all, I was just thinking theres 100 or so pages since that it’s post and we’ve come a far way since then

 

[MrPowers]

True. Sorry I didn’t want to seem like I was going after you at all, I was just thinking theres 100 or so pages since that it’s post and we’ve come a far way since then

I agree, I think there is a lot of valuable information in there! It's definitely worth the read.

 

[ttuato]

Do you use a top draw or normal dip tube pulling from the bottom? @ttuato same question for you. that might explain the difference here.

About 10 days after movement - bith kegs have top draw CBDS sytems

 

[beervoid]

About 10 days after movement - bith kegs have top draw CBDS sytems

"Clear beer" draft system right. Its in the name.
I have normal bottom drawing kegs. I like to get whatever settles out.