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American IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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JoeMamasIPA

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I agree but for the newer releases, not any of the core. Beginners mind, juice project, and all curiosities since 100 (haven’t had 105 yet) have the EQ Flavor. Beginners mind taste exactly like Fluctuation Wave.
Agreed, but I have also tasted it strongly in Perfect Storm (also not core). I like it way in the background but it's too much for me when it takes center stage.
 

beervoid

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I agree but for the newer releases, not any of the core. Beginners mind, juice project, and all curiosities since 100 (haven’t had 105 yet) have the EQ Flavor. Beginners mind taste exactly like Fluctuation Wave.
We are not talking rotten fruit flavor I guess?
 

couchsending

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I’ve seen the “honeydew” descriptor thrown around by Tree House, both by Nate and fans. I’ve never got it in any of their beers.

I’ve only had four different cans of EQ. One was great (their little 4.8% pale ale, Photon) the others were absolutely disgusting. Literally nothing but rotting melon. To me that melon “flavor” or aroma comes off as cantaloupe that’s been sitting in the garbage, it’s not pleasant at all.

I’ve had both Citra+ Amarillo Juice Project and now the Citra + Strata Juice Project as well as Curiosity 105. None of them have the rotting melon flavor/aroma I got from those EQ cans. I have some more cans of Citra + Strata Juice Project. I’ll have to see if I can find it.

I’ve only experienced that “overripe” melon flavor in I think 3 of my hoppy beers. One was a long time ago and two have been in the last few months. Both beers had a large dry hop of Citra and Simcoe at colder temps. First one also used HBC431 and the melon seemed to fade, thank god, as the beer conditioned in the keg. I attributed it to the 431 taking over. Most recent one that’s conditioning now had a large DH of Citra/Simcoe at colder temps. Citra is 2018 from Hops Direct that smells amazing out of the bag and I bought a lot of this summer. Simcoe is YCH 2018 that also smells really good. Used both of these a lot and even in the same DH but with other hops, and never encountered the melon.

I’m actually wondering if the melon is actually an off flavor caused by some poor yeast health and hop interaction. The most recent batch was an 8th generation VT Ale that seemed liked an incredibly healthy ferment. Pitched at 62 and let free rise to 70 since it was a 1.046 gravity beer. Hit 1.007 in 40ish hours and pH dropped a ton. Left it for a total of 5 days then cooled to 63 for two days, removed yeast, and cooled further to 58. No diacetyl or “off flavor” before dry hop at all. Melon was very apparent even after day 1 of DH. Actually now that I think about it I wonder if pH is at play here. I seem to get a much larger pH drop on smaller beers and especially when I let them free rise to a warm temp. PH was below 4.2 when I did dry hop it. Maybe certain hops, at certain temps, in a certain pH tend to bring out that rotting melon or cantaloupe flavor/aroma??? Whatever it is I’m not a fan and hope to not encounter it that often in the future.
 

JoeMamasIPA

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I haven't tried any of the EQ stuff but the melon I am talking about in TH beers is not of the rotting kind; it's just straight up melon flavor that some may like in heavy doses but I think is almost cloying.

That VT ale ferment sounds ferocious to get down to .007 in less than two days. I think you are definitely on to something regarding temp/pH interactions and DH taste. I know some say it doesn't matter if you DH warm or cold but I can tell a huge difference between a room temp DH and one at serving temps (really noticeable with Citra). Likewise when using different clean yeast strains that result in different finishing pH its like a completely different hop was used in the DH.
 

Dgallo

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I have certainly gotten rotten fruit in beers from a butch of breweries, pretty much every brewery I’ve gotten it from even HF and Th. There is an interesting article from I believe 2018 where Shaun Hill Is discussing how the craft beer movement is normalizing alcoholism and he kinda takes a jab at his beers tasting like rotten fruit and leading to alcoholism. I’ll see if I can find it
 

beervoid

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I recall listening a podcast where hop stench is mentioned and it seems to happen more often at lower temps with lower quality hops
 

Dgallo

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I recall listening a podcast where hop stench is mentioned and it seems to happen more often at lower temps with lower quality hops
To be honest, I bet it’s hop quality more than anything when it comes to that. I come from a Produce and Nursery/greenhouses backround and growing season and harvest date always had the biggest impact on final quality of the produce. Can’t imagine hops being any different
 

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I am going for Bru-1/citra/galaxy from YVH cyber pack very soon. I think I can't go wrong with that trio. I never used Bru-1 Thinking 40%/40%/20% galaxy
Can't see that not working. I do have a pound of Galaxy that I was saving for something else but might go with it now. I won't be putting in a Yakima order till the new year so will be just buying hops local and they aren't a patch on Yakima.
 

Dgallo

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For what’s it’s worth, I grabbed some eq on the way home and since it’s been a month since I had any. This one is drier than most of what they put out and def as a distinguishable EQ flavor but certainly no rotten fruit. I would choose an Eq over most TH Offerings. But again everyone’s pallet is different.
0B3CC70A-0653-40FB-B169-2F033C750740.jpeg
 

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For me I regularly dry hop at 60-62 with little issue. I do let the dry hops warm up to room temperature for a bit first and this seems to help them break apart easier in the beer imo. Occasionally some pellets sink, but after about 15 minutes they seems to all be broken up well and mixed with the beer. Ive never swirled my fermenter after dry hopping either.
If the point is to get the hops from floating on the top, would it make sense to do a second stage and put the hops in the second carboy just before transferring the wart?
 

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just racked an ipa using Riwaka. wow, very pungent hop. i dry hopped 4 oz for 3 days and 4 oz for 2 days, all at 50F. It is a very fruity green pepper character. similar to ekuanot with more fruit. i like it. seems like a hop some people would like a lot and some not so much, ha ha.
 

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Drinking that Simcoe/Citra little pale ale that’s finally conditioned and carbed. It tastes exactly like cantaloupe. Maybe not necessarily “rotting” but I guess that melon character is more vegetal/earthy to me than anything. I guess it’s not horrible but honestly it’s not that appealing. 2nd beer I’ve made with mostly Citra DH with 20% Simcoe at 58 that had this same profile. The other one faded over time and the 431 took over but this one has lasted and doesn’t seem to be going anywhere.
 

couchsending

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I was able to squeeze a brew day in. I brewed one of my recipes that uses Citra, El Dorado, and Galaxy. Yeast is WLP095. Think I’ll keg it by the weekend. Makes me want to brew this weekend.View attachment 709449
not to be a downer but that yeast has a really really bad reputation. Maybe they’ve improved it but Imperial, The Yeast Bay, Omega, Gigayeast are all much better sources for that strain.. or were (might be better now??)
 

HopsAreGood

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not to be a downer but that yeast has a really really bad reputation. Maybe they’ve improved it but Imperial, The Yeast Bay, Omega, Gigayeast are all much better sources for that strain.. or were (might be better now??)
It’s just the white labs version of Conan, correct?
 

nebulabrewing

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not to be a downer but that yeast has a really really bad reputation. Maybe they’ve improved it but Imperial, The Yeast Bay, Omega, Gigayeast are all much better sources for that strain.. or were (might be better now??)
You’re not being a downer! This yeast brews delicious beers. That’s been my experience. I prefer Juice and 1318. I have six third-generation vials in my fridge.Those are what I prefer, but I’m cleaning out inventory.
 

couchsending

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You’re not being a downer! This yeast brews delicious beers. That’s been my experience. I prefer Juice and 1318. I have six third-generation vials in my fridge.Those are what I prefer, but I’m cleaning out inventory.
good to know... heard nothing but terrible things about the WL version. Never used it myself. I use that “strain” of yeast for 90% of my beers and love it but I get it from somewhere else.
 

Clyde McCoy

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just racked an ipa using Riwaka. wow, very pungent hop. i dry hopped 4 oz for 3 days and 4 oz for 2 days, all at 50F. It is a very fruity green pepper character. similar to ekuanot with more fruit. i like it. seems like a hop some people would like a lot and some not so much, ha ha.
next batch I have coming is Columbus/Riwaka 🍻
 

couchsending

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Riwaka is interesting for sure. It has tons of depth to it. To me the NZ “machine oil, diesel fuel” notes are stronger in Riwaka than any of the other NZ hops. For such a low alpha it packs an incredible punch.

I’ve had quite a few HF beers that feature Riwaka (got some Susan in the fridge now) as well as Cellarmaker’s beers that highlight it and a few Monkish. That machine oil/diesel note is easy to identify in all those beers. I feel like With Nelson the best lots of Nelson don’t have it but Shaun Hill probably gets the best Riwaka in the US since he’s part owner in Freestyle and his Riwaka beers all have it. Been fortunate to score some Freestyle Riwaka and have used it a bunch over the last 3-4 years. It’s really cool and really polarizing. Maybe the easiest hop to pick out.
 

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next batch I have coming is Columbus/Riwaka 🍻
Love dual hop combos with columbus! Ive done columbus/galaxy. Mostly columbus on hot side and a dash of galaxy in the whirlpool and flip-flop them on dry hop favoring galaxy. Turned out great. How'd you run the columbus / riwaka combo?
 

Clyde McCoy

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Love dual hop combos with columbus! Ive done columbus/galaxy. Mostly columbus on hot side and a dash of galaxy in the whirlpool and flip-flop them on dry hop favoring galaxy. Turned out great. How'd you run the columbus / riwaka combo?
kettle - co2 extract
flameout - columbus
dry hop - riwaka (possibly w/ columbus)

leaning towards only riwaka in dry hop to get a clear sense of its profile
 

beervoid

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not to be a downer but that yeast has a really really bad reputation. Maybe they’ve improved it but Imperial, The Yeast Bay, Omega, Gigayeast are all much better sources for that strain.. or were (might be better now??)
What bad rep has it got according to you?
I brewed with it a couple of times, the only downside I experienced is that it tends to end up clearer then 1318, but that seems universal with all conan related strains.
I really like the distinct stonefruit esters it throws.
 

nebulabrewing

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What bad rep has it got according to you?
I brewed with it a couple of times, the only downside I experienced is that it tends to end up clearer then 1318, but that seems universal with all conan related strains.
I really like the distinct stonefruit esters it throws.
Interesting. The clearing up was not my experience. This was five weeks in the keg for me. Makes sense tho consideringso many variablescan influence it.
E5312B7F-E807-4042-B48C-9AF5CEAF8DAA.jpeg
 

beervoid

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Interesting. The clearing up was not my experience. This was five weeks in the keg for me. Makes sense tho consideringso many variablescan influence it.View attachment 709501
Yes I believe its mostly in later generations when it also becomes more attenuative. My theory is that it munches up the desirables that contribute to haze. Lots of factors at play.
 

cheesebach

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What bad rep has it got according to you?
I brewed with it a couple of times, the only downside I experienced is that it tends to end up clearer then 1318, but that seems universal with all conan related strains.
I really like the distinct stonefruit esters it throws.
This is my experience with this yeast as well. The 3 NEIPAs I've made with WLP095 have all turned out great, but they do have a tendency to clear after 1-2 months in the keg, whereas LA3 won't ever clear (at least as far as I can tell).
 

Northern_Brewer

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good to know... heard nothing but terrible things about the WL version. Never used it myself.
I wouldn't have said I've heard terrible things about it, it's just a bit bland compared to more recent selections of Conan - and since that character is what you're buying it for, it makes sense to get one of the more interesting versions.
 

hopfenstopfen

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I wouldn't have said I've heard terrible things about it, it's just a bit bland compared to more recent selections of Conan - and since that character is what you're buying it for, it makes sense to get one of the more interesting versions.

I would like to read opinions on the widely available Conan strains from those on this thread with lots of experience.
 

couchsending

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I would like to read opinions on the widely available Conan strains from those on this thread with lots of experience.
Big fan of the Yeast Bay strain. Seems to be more reliable and flocc better.

Imperial or Omega are also good options.

I’ve heard of some professionals doing a 70/30 blend of Conan and LA3.
 

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My wife says the Riwaka IPA smells like fresh curry leaves. I haven't smelled them in a while, but i could see that.

Riwaka is interesting for sure. It has tons of depth to it. To me the NZ “machine oil, diesel fuel” notes are stronger in Riwaka than any of the other NZ hops. For such a low alpha it packs an incredible punch.

I’ve had quite a few HF beers that feature Riwaka (got some Susan in the fridge now) as well as Cellarmaker’s beers that highlight it and a few Monkish. That machine oil/diesel note is easy to identify in all those beers. I feel like With Nelson the best lots of Nelson don’t have it but Shaun Hill probably gets the best Riwaka in the US since he’s part owner in Freestyle and his Riwaka beers all have it. Been fortunate to score some Freestyle Riwaka and have used it a bunch over the last 3-4 years. It’s really cool and really polarizing. Maybe the easiest hop to pick out.
 

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We just got a shipment of EQ in CA, and i tried a 6.8% Citra/Mosaic IPA (forgot the name). I don't typically buy things with the "generic" Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy combos unless its special but I'm really glad I did, it was very, very good.
 

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Someone asked me the other day why do a soft crash before DH vs. doing a full cold crash before DH and I didn't have a good answer. So why is the soft crash better? Given the ability to maintain positive CO2 pressure wouldn't it be more effective in dropping out yeast to go down to temps in the 30's for a couple days and then DH? It seems like the soft crash might just be for convenience sake of avoiding cooling and warming the liquid as much. Perhaps there is something inherently bad about large temp swings but I might give a full cold crash a try on my next beer.
 

HopsAreGood

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Someone asked me the other day why do a soft crash before DH vs. doing a full cold crash before DH and I didn't have a good answer. So why is the soft crash better? Given the ability to maintain positive CO2 pressure wouldn't it be more effective in dropping out yeast to go down to temps in the 30's for a couple days and then DH? It seems like the soft crash might just be for convenience sake of avoiding cooling and warming the liquid as much. Perhaps there is something inherently bad about large temp swings but I might give a full cold crash a try on my next beer.
It’s a good question and I think you hit on the main concerns of oxygen ingress and large temp swings. For whatever it’s worth there is a pretty well respected local brewery that provides cards for each table at the brewery, that basically describes the brewing process. For the most part it’s pretty generic but they do say that they crash their beer down to 33 degrees Fahrenheit prior to dry hopping, in order to drop out the yeast.
 

JoeMamasIPA

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It’s a good question and I think you hit on the main concerns of oxygen ingress and large temp swings. For whatever it’s worth there is a pretty well respected local brewery that provides cards for each table at the brewery, that basically describes the brewing process. For the most part it’s pretty generic but they do say that they crash their beer down to 33 degrees Fahrenheit prior to dry hopping, in order to drop out the yeast.
Thanks. I just wasn't sure if there was some voodoo with proteins/VDK/yeast or some other organic chemistry nightmare I would walk into. Those cards sound like fun and probably prevent the staff from being asked a million questions.
 

Adam Zerwick

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Thanks. I just wasn't sure if there was some voodoo with proteins/VDK/yeast or some other organic chemistry nightmare I would walk into. Those cards sound like fun and probably prevent the staff from being asked a million questions.
For my next batch I'm gonna try a variation of this... Unfortunately with the Flex+ I don't have the ability to dump trub/yeast. Anyways here's my plan:
- At terminal and VDK passing cold crash to 38F for a couple days
- Dry hop for 2 days at 38F
- Rack into serving keg

My only concern is the hops dropping straight to the bottom of the fermenter. Gonna test this out with a clear bowl and beer from a can (degassed and not) to see for my own eyes.
 

JoeMamasIPA

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I
For my next batch I'm gonna try a variation of this... Unfortunately with the Flex+ I don't have the ability to dump trub/yeast. Anyways here's my plan:
- At terminal and VDK passing cold crash to 38F for a couple days
- Dry hop for 2 days at 38F
- Rack into serving keg

My only concern is the hops dropping straight to the bottom of the fermenter. Gonna test this out with a clear bowl and beer from a can (degassed and not) to see for my own eyes.
I have had mixed results with cold dry hopping. Sometimes the flavor seems way off; I don't like vegetal as a descriptor but I would have to use it here. I soft crash around 50 and then rack from a fermenting keg into a keg (loaded with DH) that was purged using fermentation gases. Then I DH for 2-4 days in the low 60's, crash to serving temps, and serve from the DH keg until tapped. The soft crash gets the yeast cell count low to both avoid hop creep and stripping of hop oils. Your method seems sound except for the cold DH part where you might consider warming it back up, preferably without having to move the fermenter which could rouse the crashed bits. The only part I don't like about my method is exposing the DH hops to fermentation gases/temperature for 3 days. Having said that, when I have opened the DH keg following fermentation purge it typically smells pretty potent like not much was lost.
 

Adam Zerwick

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I have had mixed results with cold dry hopping. Sometimes the flavor seems way off; I don't like vegetal as a descriptor but I would have to use it here. I soft crash around 50 and then rack from a fermenting keg into a keg (loaded with DH) that was purged using fermentation gases. Then I DH for 2-4 days in the low 60's, crash to serving temps, and serve from the DH keg until tapped. The soft crash gets the yeast cell count low to both avoid hop creep and stripping of hop oils. Your method seems sound except for the cold DH part where you might consider warming it back up, preferably without having to move the fermenter which could rouse the crashed bits. The only part I don't like about my method is exposing the DH hops to fermentation gases/temperature for 3 days. Having said that, when I have opened the DH keg following fermentation purge it typically smells pretty potent like not much was lost.
My usual process is to soft crash to 50F then warm back up to about 60-64F and dry hop without agitating the fermenter too much. The goal, like you said, is to not rouse all the stuff you worked on dropping out. This has been working well for me!! I used to ferment in kegs and did exactly what you do with your dry hop keg. It always bothered me having dry hops sitting in a moist environment (starsan solution remnants) while being exposed to the ferm gas and ambient temps. I feel like my beers are better with how I dry hop now but I'm always down to revisit :)

The primary reason I wanted to try this is 1) I've never tried it, 2) Janish mentioned some research on cold and short dry hopping, and 3) I've heard Denny Conn raving about this method. I appreciate your feedback and experience!!
 

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I just tried a soft crash to 50F and dry hop at 50F for the first time. I usually soft/cold crash and then warm up to 65F or so for dry hop. I love the beer, but I have heard people have mixed results with dry hopping below fermentation temps. As was stated a few posts back, some surmise that cold dry hopping can lead to unpleasant flavors if subpar hops are used for the colder dry hopping. I plan to keep doing the 50F crash and dry hop and see how it goes. The hops do largely sink to the bottom but they fluff up and absorb beer and the entire volume of beer after 2-3 days is very hazy. At warmer temps the hops always seem to kind of float in a big pillow on top of the beer (and in it to some extent of course.) Seems like the sinking is somewhat preferable as there is more contact area with the beer! This of course assumes you give the beer a few days at 50F to drop as much yeast as possible before dry hopping.

I think I will prefer the 50F crash and dry hop to raising it back up in temp if the flavor keeps pleasing me in the future. I have had hop creep after raising back up to fermentation temps and dry hopping even after a cold crash.

My usual process is to soft crash to 50F then warm back up to about 60-64F and dry hop without agitating the fermenter too much. The goal, like you said, is to not rouse all the stuff you worked on dropping out. This has been working well for me!! I used to ferment in kegs and did exactly what you do with your dry hop keg. It always bothered me having dry hops sitting in a moist environment (starsan solution remnants) while being exposed to the ferm gas and ambient temps. I feel like my beers are better with how I dry hop now but I'm always down to revisit :)

The primary reason I wanted to try this is 1) I've never tried it, 2) Janish mentioned some research on cold and short dry hopping, and 3) I've heard Denny Conn raving about this method. I appreciate your feedback and experience!!
 

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