New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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Gustatorian
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Care to share the specs of your recipe? Difficult sifting through 457 pages of this thread
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Yep! The dry hops were Cryo Hops so only added 1oz each. I use 100% RO and use Yellow Balanced profile on BrewNwater.
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Gustatorian
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Right on! Mind sharing a few more specs with me? OG, FG, ferm temp? What temp did you whirlpool at? What day did you Dry-Hop on?
hellomynameisryan
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I brewed this beer a little over a month ago and it has turned out very very well! It's been sitting in the bottles about 2.5 weeks now and it keeps getting better. I tried a tester bottle after it had been conditioning for a week or so, and it was disgusting. Like really disgusting. haha. I was scared, but after 14 days, it really started to come together. I think with one more week it will be a real champ.
I simplified the hops a little and just stuck to columbus and citra (mostly citra) and it has an awesome citrus taste happening.
Thanks to the original poster!
I simplified the hops a little and just stuck to columbus and citra (mostly citra) and it has an awesome citrus taste happening.
Thanks to the original poster!
MaCheFai
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How'd the cryo's work out for you in the dry hop? I have some on deck and curious to hear about your process and how it all worked out flavor wise too!
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Sure. OG was 1.060. FG high at 1.022.
Fermentaion day 1: 63F, Day2 65F, Day3 and 4 68F. Room temp after, 73F.
I cool the wort to about 160F before adding hops. Then wait 20min and start chill plate cooling. Don't really stir much, so guess not a true whirlpool.
Cold crashed day 7. Dry hopped on day 8 in bottling bucket (with CO2 purging the entire time), but that turned into a fiasco. The beer is turning for the worse after day 10. Other's have better methods tho.
Morrey
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Would love to hear your review upon completion.
JohnConnor
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Looooooong time lurker/reader, and I want to thank everyone for the awesome discussion. Here's mine... not exactly to recipe but I've taken a lot of the experiences and learnings from this thread.
This is an El Dorado hopped IPA. 70ish IBU's (as if), clocking in at 6.1% ABV. Cheers!
This is an El Dorado hopped IPA. 70ish IBU's (as if), clocking in at 6.1% ABV. Cheers!
TomRep
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Last one of these I brewed turned out to be almost exactly like Trillium Summer Street. May have a slightly lighter mouthfeel to it. Haven't really been touching it as I am saving it for a party this weekend, so I will have a better idea then. I believe I have a buddy who still has some Summer Street, so I may be able to get a side by side comparison as well. I will update this weekend.
I ve only done them in 2nd dryhop. Powerful fruity aroma. Flavor about the same. Much less trub.Only been in serving keg for week and a half though and its getting better every day
I brewed a batch Saturday with 1.5 oz citra/1/2 oz mosaic/ 1/2 oz simcoe in 20 minute whirlpool @ 160°. Both dryhops will also be cryos 1 citra/.5 mosaic/.5 simcoe in each
Is it Single hopped with El Dorado? If so, can you describe the flavor of El Dorado by itself? Does it stand up, or would it be better combined with something else?
dyqik
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I've had a commercial El Dorado only NEIPA, and it definitely stood up on its own. I cannot for the life of me remember the brewery though.
ETA: A cunning Google image search tells me it was Lone Pine (El Dorado) Onesie.
ETA: A cunning Google image search tells me it was Lone Pine (El Dorado) Onesie.
JohnConnor
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It is yes, 15 oz of El Dorado. I'll preface this with I'm pretty sure my second dry hop went bad on me in the freezer. I vacuum sealed and put it in the freezer with in 15 minutes of opening the package. All other hops where great so I'm not sure what happened there. Anyways, went I put the keg hop in, I got this onion-y/earthy note that definitely wasn't there with the other additions. My brother said he didn't smell anything and thought it was good. Well, I was right because everyone was able to pick that out in the finished beer. So that did taint the beer final beer.
Review time with that knowledge. When I was sampling up until my last dry hop, I was hit with a huge pear note with tropical undertones. It was beautiful. I'd say it wasn't as in your face as a Citra or Mosaic but it was delicious. I was so excited... but, alas, I was disappointed with the final version and didn't get the full impact of this hop. With that, I don't think I'd hesitate to use it again in a single hopped beer!
11.7% Golden Naked Oats? Seems like folks have always advised against that high off a % for GNO or sweet/crystal malts at in NEIPA's. I wonder how that tastes
I have had similar issues with bad hops. I made several NE IPA's lately, some coming out terrible - oniony/harsh. Reviewing my notes I figured out they all had Amarillo hops. It seems I got a bad pound of Amarillo. I avoided them in my latest, and got great flavor again!. I wish I new how to tell, because they don't smell bad.
I use and strongly recommend GNO at this level. It's been a game changer for me.
I haven't experienced any ill effects from it, and to my palate it adds a nice berry'ish note to an English/fruitful beer.
agrazela
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OK, so I also don't want to sift 450+ pages...
In a nutshell, what is making the cloudiness?
Is it simply proteins from all that wheat malt? Are you skipping kettle finings? Is anyone adding anything specifically to stabilize and suspend the haze...or is that maybe what glucans from the oats are doing?
In a nutshell, what is making the cloudiness?
Is it simply proteins from all that wheat malt? Are you skipping kettle finings? Is anyone adding anything specifically to stabilize and suspend the haze...or is that maybe what glucans from the oats are doing?
JohnConnor
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Did your Amarillo smell good when you were using them? I mean, mine was pretty drastic. Like I said, I could definitely smell the undertones but I think I'm sensitive to off flavors and off smells than others. My first charges were amazing. All up until the last dry hop. I just wish I trusted my nose and threw the Mosaic in my freezer in instead...
Beerdrinker85
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isomerization
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This is not correct. See Scott janish's post here: http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/
Polyphenols and proteins react to form the haze.
OP
OP
I agree with this. The flaked grains themselves are not enough to create the haze. I don't know that anyone has totally nailed it down yet..... but, I think the leading candidate is an interaction of hop polyphenols with protein during active fermentation.... that is what likely creates the haze. If it is "murky" - that is yeast and possibly hop material in addition to the haze.
I absolutely do not "add" stuff for the sake of haze.... there is lots of talk about adding flour, etc...... there may be some that do that... but I sure don't and never would. I don't think most people/places making good versions of NE IPA are "adding" stuff like flour to purposely create haze.
val214
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Never had their neipa while in London but, their other brews were amazing. Other had a. Ice body and strong dry hop presence.
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OP
OP
Brewed a couple NE IPA's this week. One was pretty typical to what I normally brew (post 1418). The other I used 60% Golden Promise, 25% wheat, 15% flaked. Hopping at flame out was 3 ounces citra and an ounce each of Galaxy and Columbus. Will do the same for dry hop at day 3. 1.055 OG. Conan yeast.
I think Scott and others, through research and experimentation, are closing in on the cause, but I don't think anyone knows for sure yet. I am still waiting for a definitive, science backed answer to this question and trying a lot of the things folks are suggesting in my brewery. People are doing/saying lots of different things they believe are contributing to the cause. Some say it is the yeast or a combination of yeast and hops. Others claim adjuncts like wheat, flour, oats. Others definitely add adjuncts into this style of beer...Tired Hands, for instance, is purported to add apple pectin to their beers. Still others are saying it is a combination of things: different yeasts at different temps/stages of fermentation, fermentation or mash temperatures, and other process related changes in combination with ingredients that is causing the effect. I find it interesting that in my experiences it has been easy to create a cloudy beer, but a lot harder to keep the oils in suspension for more than days/weeks. I am getting to the point where I can keep a keg hazy until it kicks, but I have changed so many things I cannot point to a single thing that did the trick...
One thing I would point out is that the search and research for how to brew a good NEIPA has really helped my brewing. Things I believe have contributed are yeast (1318 and 007), adjuncts (wheat and oats, have some apple pectin but have not brewed with it yet), fermentation under pressure in a closed system, whirlpooling with no kettle additions other than a small bittering charge, dry hopping during active fermentation, LODO techniques on the cold side, etc. Not sure if one of these, all of these, or none of these is making my NEIPA taste/smell better and stay turbid for longer but I believe all have helped me brew better beer that stays fresh longer with a better shelf life.
I still am trying to get my head around the concept of oxidized polyphenols from hops causing haze, because they also cause strong flavors that are not pleasant or present in the high quality NEIPAs I have purchased from Tree House, Trillium, etc. nor are they in the beers I brew. In other words, how is the thing that causes an IPA to taste like ass AND creating the permanent NEIPA haze related and what are we doing to get the latter but not the former?
Well, they smelled like hops
. They didn't smell obviously bad to me. But maybe if I smelled good and bad Amarillo side by side I could tell the diff. I got a new pound of Amarillo, so maybe I should do a side by side compare. I am hesitant to open the new one and expose it without needing to use it right away though. Paranoid?
OP
OP
I agree that for now most of the ideas around haze are just that - ideas and thoughts. However, I do think it is definitely safe to say that the one thing we know for sure is that it is an interaction of variables. It is definitely not any ONE variable - because crystal clear beer can be made with any one of the variables. It definitely has something to do with the hop rates in whirlpool and Dry hop.... high hop rates at these times definitely contribute to "hazier" beer - even when attempting clear beer. Not necessarily NE IPA level haze - but, even if you want to make a "west coast" IPA - lots of late/dry hops can create some level of haze.
I (personally) hate the idea of flour, pectin, etc. in beer. Most critics of NE IPA's immediately bring that up - "These breweries are going to crazy lengths to get their beers murky by adding things like flour....." Tired Hands is often brought up as a well known example. I have to be honest..... I really don't like most beer I have had from Tired Hands. I have drain-poured a fair number of them. I have never had a beer from them that blew me away. I just don't think there is anything "good" that these things can add to the beer and they are not necessary to get the "hazy" aspect in the first place. So, to me, it is just adding something that can make your beer worse and less stable.
I also think chasing "permanent" haze may not be the answer. I have yet to have a good example of one of these beers that stays cloudy forever. Trillium clears up with time in the fridge..... so does night shift, alchemist, tree house, toppling goliath..... give a beer time and cold, and it will start to drop clear. Now, not that it happens instantly or within a few days.... but a few weeks it is not uncommon. Mine will start to drop clearer after 2-3 weeks and will be moderately to low hazy if a keg lasts 5 weeks.
I also agree with your thoughts on poly phenols being potentially bad for the beer flavors..... I think that is exactly why a fair number of these beers aren't that great. I think that is the reason even the good breweries making these have some hit and miss along the way. I think this is also the reason why even the good versions of these don't hold up that great. These beers are best fresh. I have yet to drink a single one of these that got better over time..... 2-5 weeks and they are at their best. They are never better at 6-8 weeks+.
** I do think the LoDo stuff has the potential to help this out. I have been trying to dial some of that in right now with my lagers and blonde ales, but have not messed with it yet on this beer until I get some things nailed down with simpler beers.
I agree with this mostly Brau - it's from the behavior of the yeast, but I have to disagree about the active fermentation part being necessary.
To be clear - I use exclusively 1318, so my experience is from this yeast. I made your blonde ale - 60 min and 30min hops only. But I split the batch it two secondaries. I dry hoped only one of the with 1oz Citra, 1oz Cascade (equiv of 4oz/5gl). I added the dry hop on about day 15 - and only let it sit 2 days prior to cold crashing and kegging.
The straight blonde ale came out relatively clear. Slightly hazy due to some flakes in the grist as you would expect. But the dry hopped one came out down right cloudy (and delicious). Looked like a typical cloudy NE IPA.
So dry hopping long after active fermentation, with 1318 at least, causes the haze/cloudiness.
One additional note. I've also split the batch in the primary, fermenting one with 1318, and the other with Wyeast Yorkshire ale yeast. The 1318 again came out cloudy, the Yorkshire came out much clearer.
Additionally, 1318 seems to take on a whole different taste when heavily hopped. The Yorkshire just came out hoppier, but with 1318 it seems to react somehow and add a whole citrusy zesty taste and aroma - a whole additional dimension.
This is my observations at least.
OP
OP
Interesting that the blonde came out cloudy with the very late dry hop..... although, 4 ounces per 5 gallons is a decent amount of dry hop.
Honestly, most of my personal experience with 1318 has been in brewing british bitters and british milds..... crystal clear. It was always one of my "go to" yeasts for those types of beers. Clean, clear, rich beer. Of course, I don't dry hop those beers either. Interesting how yeast can behave differently under different circumstances.
I also wonder about the interaction of certain yeasts with certain hops..... I have been making some recent batches that were Cascade/Centennial heavy with some Summit.... those beers were less hazy/cloudy for sure than beers where I am using the super oily hops like Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic/Simcoe/Columbus etc.
A lot of recent research has been looking at what specific, individual hop oils do and contribute at various stages of the process - I would not be surprised if a portion of the answer lies in that area. Might also explain to some extent why more traditional west coast beers that are highly hopped are less cloudy/hazy - Cascade/Centennial/Chinook type hops.
isomerization
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Nice post, reading my post again and I came off a bit to matter of fact. Should have had a caveat of the leading hypothesis (imo).
Flaked adjuncts are most definitely not required for heavy haze, I feel like that has been demonstrated many times. This isn't to say that it doesn't increase the haze, but it's certainly not required.
I'm certainly not an expert here, but no beer is made in a vacuum (space dust? Lol), so I imagine that oxidiation is always occurring, it's just a matter of how much and when.
jakturner
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From my personal experience, if I dryhop during active fermentation it stays cloudy till it kicks, but if i wait around too long on the first dryhop it starts to clear up a little after a about 2-3 weeks. But I regularly spit a batch in half and quick sour one half with no hops added, fermented with the same yeast (1318), and it will drop completely clear in 1-2 weeks, that's with 25-30% flaked oats/wheat.
stickyfinger
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Many of us on this thread and others have been brewing the new super hoppy NE-style beers for awhile now. I think when you brew enough of them you start to realize that yeast and hops are the most likely cause of haze. I also have had some of the most delicious beers of my life in this style but they were only moderately hazy, could still see through them, especially once they warmed up. Super haze isn't needed for fantastic hoppy beer, but it does tend to be there at least to some degree when you use a ton of hops (depending on the type/lot of hops as Brau pointed out) and especially with certain yeast strains as well.
Beerdrinker85
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I made Brau's updated recipe 3 times with Vermont ale. I ran out of Galaxy so I switched it for Eldorado and the other one for Apollo and I can certify that my beer was cloudy as hell even after 5 weeks in the keg. This recipe/process is working very well... for me at least...
For those into water chemistry, how much sodium is too much? At what point do you starting getting a "salty" beer? I was reading some posts on another site and someone getting good results said part of their focus was getting hardness as low as possible (i.e. cutting back on Ca and Mg).
I was thinking of trying a 100 Cl, 50 SO4 profile for my next NEIPA but in order to get that and minimize Ca and Mg, I end up with 65 Na and 12.6 Mg and a hardness of 50. Is that beer going to be salty tasting?
Are there other sources of Cl and SO4 besides the usual suspects (NaCl, CaCl, MgCl, CaSO4, MgSO4)?
I'm starting with distilled water so I'm assuming no appreciable minerals pre-treatment.
I was thinking of trying a 100 Cl, 50 SO4 profile for my next NEIPA but in order to get that and minimize Ca and Mg, I end up with 65 Na and 12.6 Mg and a hardness of 50. Is that beer going to be salty tasting?
Are there other sources of Cl and SO4 besides the usual suspects (NaCl, CaCl, MgCl, CaSO4, MgSO4)?
I'm starting with distilled water so I'm assuming no appreciable minerals pre-treatment.
OP
OP
I think you would have to be higher than 65ppm of Na to make a beer taste salty. 65 is probably getting higher than what most people would use.... but, I think you are still below the flavor threshold at that point.
Gustatorian
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With your fermentor jump to keg, and then keg jump to serving keg, do you ever have issues with hop particulate getting stuck in the dip tubes/poppits? If I don't cold-crash my dry-hopped beers, I have difficulty in the direct transfer from fermentor to keg. I assume playing a something around the dip tube will help with the keg to keg jump...
